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Author Topic: Proto Slavic Admixture in indo-iranians (andronovo and corded ware)  (Read 2074 times)
intrestedinhistory
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« on: May 20, 2012, 07:23:01 AM »

This is a theory I have read online. Anybody actually think this is true? Besides a few Z280+/M458+ samples in Central Asia what is this based on? We don't even know if those are recent or maybe Indo-Iranians in Europe belonged to them originally. But is there any evidence for Slavic influence and contribution to Indo-Iranian languages and Proto-Slavic tribes making up part of the Central Asian Proto Indo-Iranians/Indo-Iranians proper?

Does Andronovo descend from Corded Ware?


Also it is pretty much 100% that Andronovo and Scythians were proto Indo-Iranian and NE Iranian right? And there is no slavic influence on Indo-Iranian languages but a small NE Iranian influence on Slavic? Is there any truth in the theory that Scythians were proto Slavs? What about Cimmerians? What did they speak? Where is there ancestry present in Asia and what route did they take?

Also is all of the Northern component in Central /South Asia Indo-Iranian or was some of it brought by Turks who mixed with other groups (some heavily northern 3rd party maybe selkup or finno ugric populations) before they made their way to Central/South Asia?
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Jean M
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2012, 07:00:37 PM »

Corded Ware is not Proto-Slavic.

Proto-Slavic is the language from which the Slavic language family sprang. It would have been spoken about 500-600 AD. The first written Slavic language is Old Church Slavonic, which appears from 865 AD, and is very close to Proto-Slavic.

Linguistically it is deduced that Proto-Slavic was spoken in the region around the Middle Dnieper. Its ancestor Proto-Balto-Slavic developed long before in the same region, in contact with the Proto-Indo-Iranian language and shares features with it. But that shared dialect continuum broke up about 2500 BC. Proto-Indo-Iranian does not descend from the far younger Proto-Slavic. That makes no sense at all.

On the genetic front R1a1a seems to have broken into eastern and western subclades at about the expected time from the archaeology and linguistics. We can see the split between the Asian R1a1a and European R1a1a coinciding with the move east of the Urals to Sintashta.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2012, 11:00:08 PM »

So there is no evidence that slavs had anything to do with an indo-iranian ethnogenesis?

What about the small amount of R1a-Z280+, R1a-Z283+ and R1a-M458+ in Central Asia?

And how come there is no ydna I or European R1b if lactose persistence was common among indo-iranians?
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Jean M
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2012, 05:05:38 AM »

Why keep asking me the same questions on different forums and by personal message? I have answered them. It gets very repetitive.

Just one more time then. Lactase persistence is not found just in men. There is no evidence that it arose in a man. It is not inherited solely from father to son. It therefore is not directly connected to Y-DNA haplogroups. Today the 13910T mutation is found in men of every Western Eurasian haplogroup and no doubt in a wider range than that.

We don't know in whom the mutation first occurred, but it would be advantageous among dairy farmers and so would be likely to spread among them by natural selection.

The distribution of the lactase persistence 13910T mutation does not suggest that it spread with the first farmers from the Near East. It is uncommon in the Near East and North Africa, except for the North-West of Africa which has had a lot of contact with Europe. The distribution suggests that it spread mainly with Indo-European speakers and Uralic speakers. That would make sense if the 13910T mutation had arrived onto the Pontic-Caspian steppe with dairy farmers and spread from there with herders.

First it would need to spread by interbreeding between incoming dairy farmers and steppe peoples, and between them and the forest-steppe people speaking Proto-Uralic, to men of all the Y-DNA haplogroups that happened to be carried among those people. It would not be exclusive to one haplogroup. Inter-breeding occurs between men and women, not men and men. (Just a little reminder!)

Once the 13910T mutation was pretty well fixed among these populations, then it does not matter what Y-DNA haplogroups spread east, west and north. They would all carry 13910T.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 04:36:21 AM by Jean M » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012, 11:25:04 AM »

Ok. Did these forest uralic speakers mix with indo-iranians? And what zone did they occupy in terms of modern borders?

I've been told that it is impossible for a people to have just one ydna. Yet Indo-Iranian speakers seem to have been 100% R1a-Z93+. I am curious on how this is possible. Even if lactose persistence is not correlated with a certain ydna Indo-Iranians probably mixed with those people. Are there any ydnas/mtdnas in central asia that show strong matches with tripoyle area lineages?

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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2012, 11:25:21 AM »

What about the settelment of tripoyle farmers in the area of the BMAC? Or ancient Northeast European hunter gatherer settlements in Central Asia? Also Maykop culture influence on Indo-Iranians? Cimmerians? How did these not leave behind ydna/mtdna in Central Asia, NW South Asia and Iran?

thanks for the reply btw.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 11:27:16 AM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2012, 11:50:16 AM »

Corded Ware is not Proto-Slavic.

Proto-Slavic is the language from which the Slavic language family sprang. It would have been spoken about 500-600 AD. The first written Slavic language is Old Church Slavonic, which appears from 865 AD, and is very close to Proto-Slavic.

Linguistically it is deduced that Proto-Slavic was spoken in the region around the Middle Dnieper. Its ancestor Proto-Balto-Slavic developed long before in the same region, in contact with the Proto-Indo-Iranian language and shares features with it. But that shared dialect continuum broke up about 2500 BC. Proto-Indo-Iranian does not descend from the far younger Proto-Slavic. That makes no sense at all.

On the genetic front R1a1a seems to have broken into eastern and western subclades at about the expected time from the archaeology and linguistics. We can see the split between the Asian R1a1a and European R1a1a coinciding with the move east of the Urals to Sintashta.


Don't know why I assumed that Corded ware is proto slavic without more research. It is a popular claim on the internet and I fell for it.

While there is a split between Asian and European R1a some Z280/Z283/m458 clades have been found  in central asia (along with ydna I). What would tocharians have carried as well?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 11:51:21 AM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2012, 07:12:21 AM »

I've been told that it is impossible for a people to have just one ydna. Yet Indo-Iranian speakers seem to have been 100% R1a-Z93+.

That is very unlikely. A small sample from Andronovo was almost exclusively R1a, which suggests that R1a was easily the predominant lineage. That is not quite the same as 100%. Once a group gets larger in size than an extended family of a few generations, it is likely to acquire one or two males from outside the family, even in a patrilocal system. If you take a small sample from such a group, you might get just the predominant haplogroup, but if you take a larger sample, you may pick up a selection of the minor haplogroups.  
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 07:12:46 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 07:19:43 AM »

What about the settlement of tripoyle farmers in the area of the BMAC?

There was no settlement of Cucuteni-Tripoyle farmers in the BMAC. The BMAC was created by farmers from Iran. Proto-Indo-Iranian borrowed words from an otherwise unknown language thought to be that of the BMAC. Michael Witzel points out that the borrowed vocabulary includes words from agriculture, village and town life, flora and fauna, ritual and religion, so providing evidence for the acculturation of Indo-Iranian speakers into the world of urban civilization.

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There is evidence of sustained contact between the BMAC and the Eurasian steppes to the north, intensifying c. 2000 BCE. In the delta of the River Amu Darya where it reaches the Aral Sea, its waters were channeled for irrigation agriculture by people whose remains resemble those of the nomads of the Andronovo Culture. This is interpreted as nomads settling down to agriculture, after contact with the BMAC. The culture they created is known as Tazabag'yad. About 1800 BCE the walled BMAC centres decreased sharply in size. Each oasis developed its own types of pottery and other objects. Also pottery of the Andronovo-Tazabag'yab culture to the north appeared widely in the Bactrian and Margian countryside. Many BMAC strongholds continued to be occupied and Andronovo-Tazabagyab coarse incised pottery occurs within them (along with the previous BMAC pottery) as well as in pastoral camps outside the mudbrick walls. In the highlands above the Bactrian oases in Tajikistan, kurgan cemeteries of the Vaksh and Bishkent type appeared with pottery that mixed elements of the late BMAC and Andronovo-Tazabagyab traditions.

It seems highly likely that Proto-Indic speakers absorbed the remnants of the BMAC people before moving into South Asia, so taking with them Y-DNA haplogroups like J2, along with R1a1a. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 07:22:09 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 08:36:56 AM »

Also Maykop culture influence on Indo-Iranians? Cimmerians? How did these not leave behind ydna/mtdna in Central Asia, NW South Asia and Iran?

The R1b that went eastwards is R1b1a1 (M73, M478). From Wikipedia R1b:

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R1b1a1 (2011 name) is defined by the presence of SNP marker M73. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia,[21] but has been found with relatively high frequency among particular populations there including Hazaras in Pakistan (8/25 = 32%);[22] and Bashkirs in Bashkortostan (62/471 = 13.2%), 44 of these being found among the 80 tested Bashkirs of the Abzelilovsky District in the Republic of Bashkortostan (55.0%).[3] Four R-M73 men were also found in a 523-person study of Turkey,[4] and one person in a 168-person study of Crete.[23]

In 2010, Myres et al. report that out of 193 R-M73 men found amongst 10,355 widespread men, "all except two Russians occurred outside Europe, either in the Caucasus, Turkey, the Circum-Uralic and North Pakistan regions."[24]

The distribution certainly suggests that it spread east via the steppe and was absorbed by Asian nomads as they spread west. This is unlikely to have anything to do with the Cimmerians, who remained on the Pontic-Caspian steppe. As a guess I would say that R1b-M73 was a minor haplogroup travelling with the  Scythians and their ancestors.
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 08:48:09 AM »

 Sorry - duplicate.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 08:48:38 AM by Jean M » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 12:17:17 PM »

I've been told that it is impossible for a people to have just one ydna. Yet Indo-Iranian speakers seem to have been 100% R1a-Z93+.

That is very unlikely. A small sample from Andronovo was almost exclusively R1a, which suggests that R1a was easily the predominant lineage. That is not quite the same as 100%. Once a group gets larger in size than an extended family of a few generations, it is likely to acquire one or two males from outside the family, even in a patrilocal system. If you take a small sample from such a group, you might get just the predominant haplogroup, but if you take a larger sample, you may pick up a selection of the minor haplogroups.  

So you think some M269, I (maybe even G or E) from the tripoyle culture would have been found among ancient Andronovans and Central Asians?

Regarding M73: Where did it travel east from? And what do baskhirs have to do with indo-iranians? I wasn't aware they had indo-iranian heritage unlike kazakhs, uzbeks. Or do they? Which portions of South Russia were Indo-Iranian?

The thing about M73 is that it is mostly found among Turkic speakers. To me this means that it was picked up by Turks on their way to central asia from elsewhere (or maybe even originates with them or near them in siberia etc). Or maybe its spread is related to turks and expanded heavily among them for some reason but it was already present in indo-iranian central asia/south russia? Just seems strange you don't find it in NW India/Pakistan(besides the Hazaras) and Iran where Indo-Iranians and Scythians also went. Or are you saying Scythians got it from assimilation of another West Eurasian or East Eurasian group?

On a side not Tocharians were have said to migrate to afghanistan (their culture even stretched southward into tajikistan) and pakistan via the kushan empires. Do you have on opinion on what ydnas they would have had(including R1a clade) and mtdnas?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 12:23:23 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 01:10:53 PM »

Regarding M73: Where did it travel east from? And what do baskhirs have to do with indo-iranians? I wasn't aware they had indo-iranian heritage ... The thing about M73 is that it is mostly found among Turkic speakers.

As you know, the Bashkirs are Turkic speakers. Genetically it looks as though they absorbed so much Scythian DNA in their movement west that by the time they reached Europe they were more western than eastern. They also absorbed some Uralic-speaking people east of the Volga. Today around 17% of sampled Bashkirs males carry N1c (M46/Page70/Tat), found commonly in Uralic language speakers. The predominant haplogroups among the Bashkirs are R1b-M269 (34%) and R1a1 (26%), characteristic of Indo-European speakers, together with R1b-M73 (13%). Of the remaining 10%, some do carry typically East Asian haplogroups C or O, but this is a much lower percentage than we find in some Turkic speakers of Central Asia, such as the Kazakhs.

The distribution of M73 is obviously steppe related, so we can guess that it moved east from the Pontic-Caspian steppe into Central Asia, and then was pushed back west with the advance of the Asian nomads.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 03:06:36 PM »

Regarding M73: Where did it travel east from? And what do baskhirs have to do with indo-iranians? I wasn't aware they had indo-iranian heritage ... The thing about M73 is that it is mostly found among Turkic speakers.

As you know, the Bashkirs are Turkic speakers. Genetically it looks as though they absorbed so much Scythian DNA in their movement west that by the time they reached Europe they were more western than eastern. They also absorbed some Uralic-speaking people east of the Volga. Today around 17% of sampled Bashkirs males carry N1c (M46/Page70/Tat), found commonly in Uralic language speakers. The predominant haplogroups among the Bashkirs are R1b-M269 (34%) and R1a1 (26%), characteristic of Indo-European speakers, together with R1b-M73 (13%). Of the remaining 10%, some do carry typically East Asian haplogroups C or O, but this is a much lower percentage than we find in some Turkic speakers of Central Asia, such as the Kazakhs.

The distribution of M73 is obviously steppe related, so we can guess that it moved east from the Pontic-Caspian steppe into Central Asia, and then was pushed back west with the advance of the Asian nomads.


Interesting. I think M73 is found amongst Indo-Iranian Tajiks. Tajiks are supposed to have more scythian ancestry than their southern neighbors. Maybe M73 is a late movement into Central Asia (with Scythians and not with Indo-Aryans or the ancestors of the Persians and Medes) which is why West Iranian and Indo-Aryan speakers don't have it. Its high frequencies amongst some Turkic groups might be due to drift or founder effect.

Where do you suppose M73 originally comes from? What about the Baskhir M269? And is their R1a Z93+ or something else? Are you saying they were essentially West Eurasians speaking a NE Iranian (Scythian) language and their region was originally settled by Scythians? I'm not sure how far Iranian languages stretched North(or east, or west for that matter). So portions of Southern Russia really were Iranian speaking?
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Jean M
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 06:06:03 PM »

That's a good idea about a late movement east of M73. We can't say where the mutation first cropped up. It is the distribution that suggests movement along the steppe corridor. The levels are generally low, so we don't need to visualise a mass migration. As you say, founder effect could cause higher levels in a few communities.

Subclades such as Z93+ have only just been discovered, so the papers on the Bashkirs did not test for them.

I was not saying that the Bashkirs were once West Eurasians speaking a NE Iranian (Scythian) language, though that is another possible solution to the puzzle. One way or another they ended up speaking a Turkic language, yet looking genetically more like IE-speakers. They are an ethnic composite.
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2012, 06:43:58 PM »

That's a good idea about a late movement east of M73. We can't say where the mutation first cropped up. It is the distribution that suggests movement along the steppe corridor. The levels are generally low, so we don't need to visualise a mass migration. As you say, founder effect could cause higher levels in a few communities.

Subclades such as Z93+ have only just been discovered, so the papers on the Bashkirs did not test for them.

I was not saying that the Bashkirs were once West Eurasians speaking a NE Iranian (Scythian) language, though that is another possible solution to the puzzle. One way or another they ended up speaking a Turkic language, yet looking genetically more like IE-speakers. They are an ethnic composite.

Their M269 is confusing. Central Asia generally lacks M269 except I guess for a few Tajiks but Tajikistan was settled by Sassanid Persians and we all know Northern Iran has high R1b-M269 levels and R1b probably originated in an area around NW Iran/Armenia/East Anatolia so that makes sense. So how did M269 get to Bashkirs?

It would be interesting to learn where their R1a comes from and determining which clades they have would help. The same applies to the Tarim basin and Andronovo samples.

It would make sense if they were originally Iranian speakers who absorbed both Uralic and Turkic elements. We know South Russia was once home to Scythians and the land of the Baskhirs is right near Kazakhstan where we know Iranian speakers existed.

I believe Kazakhstan is also the homeland of the Alans is it not? Or is the Alan homeland further west or north?

On a slight tangent why do you think South and Central Asians have small amounts of mtdna U5b? Isn't that mostly Western European? Why would Indo-Iranians have had that lineage?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 06:44:18 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2012, 07:10:29 PM »

Just looked it up.

Bashkortostan is where the Abashevo culture once was or was settled by people from there. I wonder what IE language their R1a ancestors spoke.

Also do you the extent to the spread of Iranian languages? For example who is native to the Western Kazakhstan province (which actually lies in Eastern Europe)?
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2012, 09:56:56 PM »

Also I have read something about Indo-Iranians being Indo-Europeanized Finno Ugrics (hence their lack of Z280/Z283+). Is there any evidence that the group that formed Andronovo spoke something different like Balto-Slavic or Finno ugrci at one point?

I've also heard Scythians were proto  or proto red-headed and didn't have light blue eyes like other IE speakers(just very dark blue ones) .

Is any of this rooted in science?
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Jean M
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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2012, 07:10:10 AM »

Also I have read something about Indo-Iranians being Indo-Europeanized Finno Ugrics (hence their lack of Z280/Z283+). Is there any evidence that the group that formed Andronovo spoke something different like Balto-Slavic or Finno ugric at one point?

I've also heard Scythians were proto  or proto red-headed and didn't have light blue eyes like other IE speakers(just very dark blue ones) .

Is any of this rooted in science?

No - none of this is rooted in science. (Sigh) How often do I have to say this. It is a load of rubbish. There is no such thing as proto-red-headed or proto-blond.  See Who do you look like? The genes for blond hair and blue eyes appear to have first spread among the early farmers, though they were not predominant in the Near East. They spread further with Indo-Europeans and Uralic-speakers. Natural selection did the rest. These genes carry an advantage in northern latitudes, but a disadvantage further south.

The Finns carry very little R1a1a and that was probably acquired from the Vikings.

As I have already explained, it is generally accepted that Andronovo is the culture that best represents the language Proto-Indo-Iranian. Proto-Balto-Slavic is related, but spoken in the Middle Dnieper, as far as can be deduced. The Middle Dnieper Culture did not spread east of the Urals.  The whole idea of Slavs turning into Scythians is a fantasy.

Now can we stop this? I have no desire to whip Polako into a frenzy and lure him here to answer posts. You seem determined to stir up trouble. I am not.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 07:41:17 AM by Jean M » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2012, 07:50:40 AM »

Also I have read something about Indo-Iranians being Indo-Europeanized Finno Ugrics (hence their lack of Z280/Z283+). Is there any evidence that the group that formed Andronovo spoke something different like Balto-Slavic or Finno ugric at one point?

I've also heard Scythians were proto  or proto red-headed and didn't have light blue eyes like other IE speakers(just very dark blue ones) .

Is any of this rooted in science?

No - none of this is rooted in science. (Sigh) How often do I have to say this. It is a load of rubbish. There is no such thing as proto-red-headed or proto-blond.  See Who do you look like? The genes for blond hair and blue eyes appear to have first spread among the early farmers, though they were not predominant in the Near East. They spread further with Indo-Europeans and Uralic-speakers. Natural selection did the rest. These genes carry an advantage in northern latitudes, but a disadvantage further south.

The Finns carry very little R1a1a and that was probably acquired from the Vikings.

As I have already explained, it is generally accepted that Andronovo is the culture that best represents the language Proto-Indo-Iranian. Proto-Balto-Slavic is related, but spoken in the Middle Dnieper, as far as can be deduced. The Middle Dnieper Culture did not spread east of the Urals.  The whole idea of Slavs turning into Scythians is a fantasy.

Now can we stop this? I have no desire to whip Polako into a frenzy and lure him here to answer posts. You seem determined to stir up trouble. I am not.

Thanks for the response.

Ok. Your link is not working btw? So among which group do you think light pigmentation originated? Anatolian farmers(and by extension Iranian and BMAc farmers) or European farmers? And they spread it to Indo-Europeans or do they originate in the group ancestral to all West Eurasians? What about green and grey eyes or brown and red hair? Seems like this is a topic people know very little about.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 07:53:34 AM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2012, 08:08:16 AM »

My link is working for me. The whole argument is there, with references: http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/looks.shtml  


 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 08:12:16 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2012, 08:52:39 AM »

I will try again later. Thanks for your help. I am still confused on why Central Asia has small amounts of R1a-Z280, Z283 (and maybe even M458+) though. That has to be admixture of some sort (maybe with  more northern hunter gatherers-the people which eventually became Balto-Slavs).
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2012, 01:19:58 PM »

My apologies. My website does seem to be down. The link might have worked for me earlier because I had the page in my browser cache.
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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2012, 03:44:06 PM »

My apologies. My website does seem to be down. The link might have worked for me earlier because I had the page in my browser cache.

Ok.

Any guess to Keltiminar ydna/mtdna?
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« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2012, 04:07:06 PM »

I don't know anything about this culture beyond what you can read on Wikipedia. If it was Uralic, then we can guess at Y-DNA N1c.
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