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Author Topic: R1b(M343) M269- and R1b1a2(M269) L23- >>> where are they? who are they?  (Read 1370 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: May 09, 2012, 12:49:18 PM »

We know that the vast majority of R1b in Europe and particularly in Western Europe are within the subclade R-P312 and R-U106, which are brothers in the R-L11 family.

Richard R has done a great job of looking at R-L51* which is in between.  Alan has commented they we still have missing links.

According to ISOGG, below is the direct lineage of R1b to all of the Western European R-L11 folks.

R1b(M343)
R1b1(P297)
R1b1a2(M269/M520)
R1b1a2a(L150)       <--- some people say this marker is not reliable/useful
R1b1a2a1(L51/M412/S167)
R1b1a2a1a(L11/S127)  <--- P310 and P311 are equivalent, position-wise

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Here are some 2nd, 3rd, etc cousins under M343:

R1b1a1(M73)
R1b1a2a1b(L584)
R1b1b(M335)
R1b1c(V88)

Who are all of the remote cousins and where are they found?  What does that tell us?

Unfortunately, I don't think we have hundreds haplotypes (in some cases barely tens) to look at so I don't think populations statistics approaches are going to help much.   No doubt, many links are missing, but for the ones we can find what does that tell us?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 12:49:54 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 01:24:52 PM »

Before R-M343, there is R-M207, and Richard Rocca found 2 out 51 R-M207 in Tuscany, i.e. 4%. Of course this haplogroup, being so ancient, is scattered all around the world, but Tuscany gets it too.

In spite of what a recent adept to this forums has said against me yesterday, I ‘d want to remember to you all that Europe has also R1a-M420, the most ancient, I hypothesized some years ago in the Italian Alps, and has now been found overall in Europe.

I can also say that I have written in this forum also many postings on R-M73 in Europe (I thought more ancient and varied than the Asian one) and also on R-M335, for me European and with YCAII= 18-23, which derives for me from the European R1b1* with YCAII=18-23. I have always said that the Eastern one, with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23, has nothing to do with our subclades, and the last mutation rate of MarkoH of YCAIIa seems to reinforce my hypothesis..


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2012, 02:00:52 PM »

Before R-M343, there is R-M207, and Richard Rocca found 2 out 51 R-M207 in Tuscany, i.e. 4%. Of course this haplogroup, being so ancient, is scattered all around the world, but Tuscany gets it too.

In spite of what a recent adept to this forums has said against me yesterday, I ‘d want to remember to you all that Europe has also R1a-M420, the most ancient, I hypothesized some years ago in the Italian Alps, and has now been found overall in Europe.

I can also say that I have written in this forum also many postings on R-M73 in Europe (I thought more ancient and varied than the Asian one) and also on R-M335, for me European and with YCAII= 18-23, which derives for me from the European R1b1* with YCAII=18-23. I have always said that the Eastern one, with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23, has nothing to do with our subclades, and the last mutation rate of MarkoH of YCAIIa seems to reinforce my hypothesis..




In the 1KG data from Tuscany, they were all at least L23+. Please see here: http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10307.msg126831#msg126831
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 02:19:37 PM »

Here are the R1b-V88 haplotypes I am aware of in DNA projects.  Am I missing any?

I will show these sorted with the non-European first, then East Continental European, then West Continental European and then finally the British Isles and Scandinavia.

f197237   zzzUnkName   Cameroon, Mandara Mountains
f197236   zzzUnkName   Cameroon, Mandara Mountains
f216550   Koori   Chad
f166085   AlAziz   Israel
fM6855   Al-Barahema   Jordan
f170336   Enezi   Saudi Arabia
f149225   Najd   Saudi Arabia
f160040   Sharef   Saudi Arabia
f193400   zzzUnkName(Arab)   Sudan
f193291   zzzUnkName(Arab)   Sudan
fM6192   Azdi   Yemen
f171693   Faul   Czech Republic
f40065   Weil   Hungary
f30748   zzzUnkName   Hungary
f140309   Bennett   Latvia
fN9149   Kasdin   Lithuania
f53054   Poras   Lithuania
fN47827   zzzUnkName   Lithuania
f34520   zzzUnkName   Lithuania
f137164   Bernstein   Poland
f86986   Kravchak   Poland
f175701   Topiol   Poland
f210215   zzzUnkName   Poland
fN4337   zzzUnkName   Poland
f73310   zzzUnkName   Romania
f57176   zzzUnkName   Ukraine
f183570   zzzUnkName   Ukraine
f171999   Goldfeld   Ukraine, Kiev
f6307   Donefer   Ukraine, Novoselytsia
f197207   Mallo   France
fN41150   zzzUnkName(France)   France
f117754   Oppenheim   Germany, Hesse, Bürgel
f112962   Oppenheim   Germany, Hesse, Bürgel (Jewish project)
f154472   Billstein   Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Rulfenrod
f199746   Grunebaum   Germany, Hesse, Züntersbach
f96694   Levi   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Weinheim
fE4799   Wolshagen   Germany
f145087   Fancisco   Portugal
f146304   Arellano   Spain
f114507   Manzanares   Spain
f150747   Mendez   Spain
f44187   Lumsden   England
f28424   Lumsden   Scotland
f77073   Lumsden   Scotland
f100315   Lumsden   Scotland
f102419   Lumsden   Scotland
f122414   Lumsden   Scotland
f37662   Lumsden   Scotland
fM6934   Alhafiz   zzzUnkOrigin
f49813   Castro   zzzUnkOrigin
f113500   Clay   zzzUnkOrigin
f4514   Crunk   zzzUnkOrigin
fN37469   Day   zzzUnkOrigin
fM6713   Joseph   zzzUnkOrigin
f57207   Logan   zzzUnkOrigin
fA3077   McGhee   zzzUnkOrigin
fE8511   Poll   zzzUnkOrigin
fM7028   Sameh   zzzUnkOrigin
fN34461   Sánchez   zzzUnkOrigin
f85514   Saxton   zzzUnkOrigin
fN30238   Schrage   zzzUnkOrigin
f113092   Stewart   zzzUnkOrigin
f94642   Tamaulipas   zzzUnkOrigin
fN49650   Traylor   zzzUnkOrigin
f110009   Wanger   zzzUnkOrigin


Of the above I have a subset that are 67 STRs. With P312=1.0 as the scale, here is the relative STR variance.

R-V88 All___________:  Var=1.30 [Linear 36]  (N=33)
R-V88 All___________:  Var=1.21 [Mixed 49]  (N=33)


Please note that I do not think this sample is representative.  This is just informational. There should be a lot more African R-V88 to make it representative.

There are some studies on V88 that have broader, better sampling, at least in Africa.
"Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages" by Cruciani et al - 2010.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/full/ejhg2009231a.html

Quote from: Cruciani
Athough human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times.
....
The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.
...
Diverse hypotheses have been proposed to explain the process by which proto-Chadic speakers arrived to the Lake Chad region. Ehret has put forward a model for Afroasiatic languages with a primary division between the Omotic languages of Ethiopia and an Erythraean subgroup. This, in turn, has been subdivided into Cushitic and North Erythraean, the latter including Berber, Semitic, Ancient Egyptian, and Chadic.

My understanding is they are talking about people moving deeper into Africa from both sides of the Red Sea. This is not necessarily close to Anatolia (modern Turkey.)

Is there any evidence that R-V88 originated in Europe or is Cruciani probably right?

What about the timing of Cruciani's conclusions?   Are there any other major movements from Ethiopia along R-V88's distribution?  Specifically, were there cattle or horse herd managers or metal working tool cultures that expanded along the same route?

I don't know if Dienekes still feels this way, but at one time he said:
Quote from: Dienekes
I am guessing that R-V88 is also one of a growing palette of haplogroups that expanded during the Bronze Age.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/01/r-v88-and-migration-of-chadic-speakers.html
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 02:43:29 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 03:28:44 PM »

Mikewww writes : “Is there any evidence that R-V88 originated in Europe or is Cruciani probably right?”

Also about this I wrote a lot here and probably also on “Dienekes’ Anthropology blog”. My idea was that, looking at the presence of R-V88+ in Africa, it seemed to me that the expansion was happened from Europe (above all Italy) by sea to North Africa. I wrote to Cruciani who answered me, saying that he wasn’t able to decide which was the right hypothesis and that he would have taken in consideration my hypothesis. Of course I haven’t seen so far any paper of his about this. We shouldn’t forget that the paper of Cruciani found some R-V88- in Italy and Sardinia gets R-M18 from R-V88-. Of course I am quoting everything by memory, and, like Rich Rocca has demonstrated, probably there weren’t R-M207 in Tuscan 1KGP. It seems to me that this was a first release of the data, but, of course, I have no time now to search for my pages I printed then.
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ironroad41
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 03:49:33 PM »

Interesting thread.  I have been rereading the book on the Holocene by Neil Roberts and a climate paper by Rhys Carpenter.

I think noone could/would argue that the out of Africa Scenario still applies.  If so, one might infer that somewhere near the Cameroons is the origin of R1b?

Carpenter argues that somewhere c. the beginning of the Holocene, as the Ice Age wore down, there was a significant weather change in Europe from the south to about the middle of Germany on an East/West basis as the Trade Winds shifted South.  This combined with the favorable precession of the Equinox angle did two things:  1. Turned the Sahara into a lush tropical region and 2. Increased the temperatures during the Summer in Northern some 3 to 5 degrees, while the lower part of Europe became dryer and colderr.  In response to this there was an west to east migration of the inhabitants (possibly R1b) following the caribou and other tundra game.  This also initiated a return of the boreal forest across the Isles and northern europe from around 11k BP to 9K BP.  Northern europe becomes verdant and fruitful providing plenty of food and warm temperatures, very suitable for h-f-g's. (hunter, fishers, gatherers).

About 7K BP the trades wind move north again and the Sahara dries out and southern europe becomes more hospitable ( for a while).  Roberts argues for an early east to west migration beginning about 8 -9 K BP out of the Aegean into the plains of Hungary, thence to mid Germany and finally to the Isles by about 6 to 7K BP.

Its my opinion that the migrations we infer were climate driven and might  explain some of the observations at burial grounds etc. as to who was where and when.

If I further postulate a land bridge between Africa and Europe at the East end of the Mediterranean and even possibly from Tripoli to Italy then the R1b migration appears differently than currently postulated, i.e., out of Africa to the East and then a western migration.

This might help to explain the predominance of R1b is western Europe?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 03:51:05 PM by ironroad41 » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 06:33:35 PM »

Here are some 2nd, 3rd, etc cousins under M343:

R1b1a2a1b(L584)

Who are all of the remote cousins and where are they found?  What does that tell us?

Unfortunately, I don't think we have hundreds haplotypes (in some cases barely tens) to look at so I don't think populations statistics approaches are going to help much.   No doubt, many links are missing, but for the ones we can find what does that tell us?

Not sure if I ever posted this on DNA-Forums.  PHYLIP tree of 67 marker R-L584 men, from a while back: http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/r_l584_1_12_11_.jpg

The Alevi man is from Turkey. 

There is also a possible R-L584 (L405-) man from Khuzestan Province, Iran, on 23andMe.  He was offered a free 67 marker FTDNA test, but, unfortunately, the individual who contacted him did not hear back from him.  This was December, I believe. 
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 07:46:12 PM »

. . .

My understanding is they are talking about people moving deeper into Africa from both sides of the Red Sea. This is not necessarily close to Anatolia (modern Turkey.)

Is there any evidence that R-V88 originated in Europe or is Cruciani probably right?

What about the timing of Cruciani's conclusions?   Are there any other major movements from Ethiopia along R-V88's distribution?  Specifically, were there cattle or horse herd managers or metal working tool cultures that expanded along the same route?

I don't know if Dienekes still feels this way, but at one time he said:
Quote from: Dienekes
I am guessing that R-V88 is also one of a growing palette of haplogroups that expanded during the Bronze Age.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/01/r-v88-and-migration-of-chadic-speakers.html


It is interesting that the Fulani of Mali, who have a high frequency of R-V88, also carry the European version of lactase persistence at a pretty high frequency, especially for Africa, of 37%.

Lactase persistence genotypes and malaria susceptibility in Fulani of Mali
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2012, 11:51:34 PM »

Quote from: Cruciani et al.2010
In total, 997 chromosomes belonging to the haplogroup R1b were found. The paragroup R-M343*, earlier reported in a single subject from Turkey,28 was not observed. The overall scenario was characterized by a strong inter-continental differentiation (Table 1). All the African R1b chromosomes, with the exception of one eastern- and a few northern-African R-M269 chromosomes, turned out to belong to
the haplogroup R-V88. About one third of the African R-V88 chromosomes carried mutation V69, which was not observed outside Africa. The large majority of R1b chromosomes from western Eurasia carried, as expected, the M269 mutation; only five R-V88 chromosomes were observed, three of which carried distinctive mutations(M18, V35, and V7). The rare R1b chromosomes observed in Asia were either R-M73 or R-M269. The R-P25* paragroup was only found in five subjects from Europe (3), western Asia (1), and eastern Asia (1) (Table 1).


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ironroad41
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2012, 08:18:16 AM »

The argument in the Dienekes blog, that Mike refers to, is interesting in that an east to west migration back into Africa is postulated.  If climatic changes are the Force causing migrational displacements then most of the displacements must have been more North-South oriented than East-West.  This assumes that the N/S displacement of the trade winds was the source of the climactic change.

Later on, as populations grew, there might have been tribal/migratory interactions that caused displacements but this would have probably occurred in the Neolithic time frame.  15K to 20K years ago, the Saharan Desert was much larger than it is today.  As it shrunk in the early holocene, this might have been when migrations occurred toward northern Africa and subsequently Europe.

The last neolithic invasion of Europe from the east, might have been more of a search by farmers for better land?  The same thing occurred in the US, when the plain states opened up and the poorer soils on the East coast were abandoned.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2012, 08:52:45 AM »

. . .

My understanding is they are talking about people moving deeper into Africa from both sides of the Red Sea. This is not necessarily close to Anatolia (modern Turkey.)

Is there any evidence that R-V88 originated in Europe or is Cruciani probably right?

What about the timing of Cruciani's conclusions?   Are there any other major movements from Ethiopia along R-V88's distribution?  Specifically, were there cattle or horse herd managers or metal working tool cultures that expanded along the same route?

I don't know if Dienekes still feels this way, but at one time he said:
Quote from: Dienekes
I am guessing that R-V88 is also one of a growing palette of haplogroups that expanded during the Bronze Age.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/01/r-v88-and-migration-of-chadic-speakers.html


It is interesting that the Fulani of Mali, who have a high frequency of R-V88, also carry the European version of lactase persistence at a pretty high frequency, especially for Africa, of 37%.

Lactase persistence genotypes and malaria susceptibility in Fulani of Mali

When and how did dairy herding reach these parts of Africa?
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2012, 07:13:23 PM »

. . .

My understanding is they are talking about people moving deeper into Africa from both sides of the Red Sea. This is not necessarily close to Anatolia (modern Turkey.)

Is there any evidence that R-V88 originated in Europe or is Cruciani probably right?

What about the timing of Cruciani's conclusions?   Are there any other major movements from Ethiopia along R-V88's distribution?  Specifically, were there cattle or horse herd managers or metal working tool cultures that expanded along the same route?

I don't know if Dienekes still feels this way, but at one time he said:
Quote from: Dienekes
I am guessing that R-V88 is also one of a growing palette of haplogroups that expanded during the Bronze Age.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/01/r-v88-and-migration-of-chadic-speakers.html


It is interesting that the Fulani of Mali, who have a high frequency of R-V88, also carry the European version of lactase persistence at a pretty high frequency, especially for Africa, of 37%.

Lactase persistence genotypes and malaria susceptibility in Fulani of Mali

When and how did dairy herding reach these parts of Africa?

That I don't know, but it is interesting that where there is an unusual pocket of European-type lactase persistence in Africa, there is also R1b-V88.
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OConnor
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2012, 08:06:42 PM »

I don't see any listed from Denmark, Sweden, or Norway?
is there none?


Some recent horse news.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120507154107.htm
New research indicates that domestic horses originated in the steppes of modern-day Ukraine, southwest Russia and west Kazakhstan, mixing with local wild stocks as they spread throughout Europe and Asia.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 08:11:07 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


palamede
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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2012, 12:12:45 PM »

It is interesting that the Fulani of Mali, who have a high frequency of R-V88, also carry the European version of lactase persistence at a pretty high frequency, especially for Africa, of 37%.

Lactase persistence genotypes and malaria susceptibility in Fulani of Mali
It is OK for lactase persistence as stated in the malarial journal :
In populations with European origin, C/T-13910 is the main causative mutation for lactase persistence [7]. In Africa several polymorphisms in the enhancer region of the lactase gene have been suggested to be associated with lactase persistence (Figure 1). Among the 162 Fulani genotyped, the major Caucasian mutation C/T-13910 was by far the most common polymorphism with an allele frequency of 37%. This means that 60% of the Fulani carry the lactase persistence genotype.

I don'' lnow the frequency R1b-V88 for Fulani of Mali but in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA) we see

Fulbe Niger n=7 14,3%
Fulbe Nigeria n=32 0%
Fulbe North Cameroon  n=18 11,1%
Guinea-Bissau n=59 R1b=1,7% E1b1b 13,6% E1b1a 74,6%
Nigeria in Cruciani-2012 n=21 R1b 0%

They have not got the highest frequency of this regions. The exception is Hassan-2008:
Sudan n=26 R1b=53,8%  E1b1b=34,6% but Fulani/Fulbé are not a lot in Sudan and it can be a tribe with specific history.

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Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2012, 06:31:04 AM »

The Fulani are a nomadic, pastoralist people. I am not sure ever-shifting African national boundaries make a lot of difference in studying them, unless one wants to argue that the Fulani in Niger are essentially different from the Fulani in Chad and the Fulani in Mali, etc.

Various studies have shown them to have a relatively high frequency of R1b-V88, and the study I cited shows them to have a relatively high frequency of the European version of lactase persistence.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 06:31:19 AM by rms2 » Logged

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