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Author Topic: New Haplogroup G Paper  (Read 2842 times)
Richard Rocca
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« on: May 16, 2012, 10:42:26 AM »

Distinguishing the co-ancestries of haplogroup G Y-chromosomes in the populations of Europe and the Caucasus

Haplogroup G, together with J2 clades, has been associated with the spread of agriculture, especially in the European context. However, interpretations based on simple haplogroup frequency clines do not recognize underlying patterns of genetic diversification. Although progress has been recently made in resolving the haplogroup G phylogeny, a comprehensive survey of the geographic distribution patterns of the significant sub-clades of this haplogroup has not been conducted yet. Here we present the haplogroup frequency distribution and STR variation of 16 informative G sub-clades by evaluating 1472 haplogroup G chromosomes belonging to 98 populations ranging from Europe to Pakistan. Although no basal G-M201* chromosomes were detected in our data set, the homeland of this haplogroup has been estimated to be somewhere nearby eastern Anatolia, Armenia or western Iran, the only areas characterized by the co-presence of deep basal branches as well as the occurrence of high sub-haplogroup diversity. The P303 SNP defines the most frequent and widespread G sub-haplogroup. However, its sub-clades have more localized distribution with the U1-defined branch largely restricted to Near/Middle Eastern and the Caucasus, whereas L497 lineages essentially occur in Europe where they likely originated. In contrast, the only U1 representative in Europe is the G-M527 lineage whose distribution pattern is consistent with regions of Greek colonization. No clinal patterns were detected suggesting that the distributions are rather indicative of isolation by distance and demographic complexities.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 10:55:06 AM »

“whereas L497 lineages essentially occur in Europe where they likely originated”.

This was the European G2a3b1a2, 80% of the European G. And what about the G2a4 of Ötzi? Certainly it was in Europe (and above all in Italy) from many thousands of years.
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JeanL
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 07:52:35 PM »

Quote from: Rootsi et al.2012
The coalescent times (Td) of various haplogroups were estimated using the ASD0 methodology described by Zhivotovsky et al,32 modified according to Sengupta et al.13 We used the evolutionary effective mutation rate of 6.9x10–4 per 25 years, as pedigree rates are arguably only pertinent to shallow rooted familial pedigrees,33 as they do not consider the evolutionary consequences of population dynamics including the rapid extinction of newly appearing microsatellite alleles. Moreover, the accuracy and validity of the evolutionary rate has been independently confirmed in several deep-rooted Hutterite pedigrees.34 Furthermore pedigree rate-based estimates cannot be substantiated, as they are often inconsistent with dateable archeological knowledge, for example, as clearly illustrated regarding the peopling of the Americas.35 Coalescent times based on 10 STR loci (DYS19, DYS388, DYS389I, DYS389b, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS439, DYS461-TAGA counts) and the median haplotypes of specific hg G sub-haplogroups are presented in Supplementary Table S4. For the multi-copy STR DYS389I,II the DYS389b value was DYS389I subtracted from DYS389II. Also for P15* and L91 lineages Td estimates, DYS19 was excluded owing to duplications in these lineages.36

The formula for the coalescence calculations is as follows: Age=25/1000xASD0/0.00069.

‘ASD0’ is the average squared difference in the number of repeats between all current chromosomes of a sample and the founder haplotype, which is estimated as the median of current haplotypes. ‘25’ and ‘0.00069’ denote the assumed average generation time in years and the effective mutation rate, respectively, and ‘1000’ is used to convert the result of the equation (into thousands of years). SD was also calculated for the age estimates according to the following formula: 25/1000x(ASD0 variance)0.5/ 0.00069.

Such temporal estimates must be viewed with caution owing to differences in individual STR locus mutation rates, sensitivity to rare outlier STR alleles and complexities related to multiple potential founders during a demographic event. Nonetheless, coalescent times provide a valuable/informative relative metric for estimating the time of lineage formation. Spatial frequency maps for hg G sub-clades that attained 10% frequency in at least one population were obtained by applying the haplogroup frequencies from Supplementary Table S1.
The frequency data were converted into isofrequency maps using the Surfer software (version 8, Golden Software, Inc., Golden, CO, USA), following the kriging algorithm using advanced options to use bodies of waters as breaklines. Artefactual values below 0% values were not depicted. Spatial autocorrelation analysis was carried out to assess the presence/absence of clines regarding informative G sub-haplogroups. The Moran’s I coefficient was  alculated using the PASSAGE software v.1.1 (Phoenix, AZ, USA) with binary weight matrix, nine distance classes and random distribution assumption. To accommodate for variability in sample sizes and hg G content, haplogroup diversity was calculated using the method of Nei37 only in the 52 instances when total population sample size exceeded 50 individuals and Z5 hg G chromosomes were observed.

Principal component analysis based on G sub-haplogroup frequencies was performed using the freeware POPSTR program (http://harpending.humanevo.utah.edu/popstr/).
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2012, 12:06:56 AM »

Thomas Krahn writes on Rootsweb: “I didn't start reading the article, however the supplementary material is already the plain chaos. The Table 2 is supposed to contain the "new" SNPs. M527 appears to be L78 which is known for quite a while and almost every chromosomal position or base change don't match up with the reference
sequence. The primers map to completely different regions. So be aware
that you can't trust any of this information. I wonder who is reviewing those articles...”

I too wonder that so many luminaries put them together to say so many foolishnesses.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 12:07:23 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2012, 08:42:47 AM »

You G folks might be interested in these two posts.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10579.msg131155#msg131155

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10579.msg131166#msg131166
"
You mentioned the period of G2 but there is a huge amount of Caucasus HT's in the oldest P15  and P16 which would be Eneolithic/Bronze ages in Middle East: 4500 to 3300 BC? 1.5K back to founder suggests a very small, if any, growth but around 5K Ybp must have had substantial growth in the Caucasus after first 60 generations or so. After that a SNP mutation occurs on an average of every 11 generations or 275 years.
...

G-P15 Founder GA=   269   6,726
G-P16 GB coal=   208   5,208
G-P15 GA coal=   200   4,998
G-M285 GB coal=   171   4,275
G-P20 GB coal=   151   3,767
G-M406 GB coal=   143   3,575
G-M406 GB coal=   143   3,575
G-U1 GB coal=   126   3,150
R-L21 GB coal=   105   2,624
G-Page19 GB coal=   92   2,294
G-M527 GB coal=   89   2,235
G-L497 GB coal=   83   2,082
G-M485 GB coal=   82   2,038
G-L91 GB coal=   78   1,959
G-M377 GB coal=   70   1,758"
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2012, 11:33:02 AM »

You G folks might be interested in these two posts.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10579.msg131155#msg131155

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10579.msg131166#msg131166
"
You mentioned the period of G2 but there is a huge amount of Caucasus HT's in the oldest P15  and P16 which would be Eneolithic/Bronze ages in Middle East: 4500 to 3300 BC? 1.5K back to founder suggests a very small, if any, growth but around 5K Ybp must have had substantial growth in the Caucasus after first 60 generations or so. After that a SNP mutation occurs on an average of every 11 generations or 275 years.
...

G-P15 Founder GA=   269   6,726
G-P16 GB coal=   208   5,208
G-P15 GA coal=   200   4,998
G-M285 GB coal=   171   4,275
G-P20 GB coal=   151   3,767
G-M406 GB coal=   143   3,575
G-M406 GB coal=   143   3,575
G-U1 GB coal=   126   3,150
R-L21 GB coal=   105   2,624
G-Page19 GB coal=   92   2,294
G-M527 GB coal=   89   2,235
G-L497 GB coal=   83   2,082
G-M485 GB coal=   82   2,038
G-L91 GB coal=   78   1,959
G-M377 GB coal=   70   1,758"
Other foolishnesses. We know for certain that G-L91 was present in Europe (in Italy) at least 5300 years before present and probably many thousands of years before (Oetzi) and other G-s at least 7000YBP.

Foolishnesses on foolishnesses.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2012, 03:22:23 AM »

I think it is interesting to meditate what Ray Banks writes on Rootsweb about hg. G:

"With regard to dating in this new G study and presuming you agree with the authors’ methodology:
They break up the somewhat large M406 (G2a3a) group into eastern and western portions that each originated about 5000 yrs after the origin of M406, but no such cleavage times are provided for the other major European G subgroups. And it seems they are thus equating the time of origin of L13 and L497 (which constitute over half the G in Europe) with the arrival of these subgroups in Europe.
Thus L13 is 7100 yrs, and L497 is 10,870 yrs and Italian M406 is 8800 yrs ago.
L497 is an all European subgroup, and L13, and M406 are both Asian and European.
In comparing the 67 markers of our M406, then L13, participants from Asia with the 67 markers of European persons in the same subgroups, just about every Asian sample has a variety of European samples among the nearest matches and showing genetic distances in the early 20s. Some have near matches in the teens. These matches are almost close enough that one could use the unsophisticated pedigree method of calculating time relationships, and it seems these men probably share ancestors more likely to have lived 2000 to 3000 yrs ago than 8000 to 10000 yrs ago (as in the study). [Note: It is understood that the very nearest matches likely eccentrically mutated toward the other sample’s values, and I ignore these in comparing those 67 marker samples with significant genetic distances]
There is a separate problem with the huge European L497 group. In the 1000 Genomes Project L497 has an unusually large number of equivalent SNPs. We have not been able to break these open into subgroups. This suggests that the L497 group existed as a very small family grouping for a long period of time, and the location could have been most anywhere.
Their use of the 10,870 years ago figure for L497 creates an additional problem. They show a L497 concentration in n.w. Italy. This is not precisely the configuration of the Etruscan rule, but with the strong presence in Etruscan-ruled Corsica. it is close, and it raises the possibility of a connection between L497 and the Etruscan migration to Italy nearly 3000 yrs ago. The one L497 man from n.w. Italy in the 1000 Genomes Project seems to have the oldest L497 sample. All the other L497 samples branch off of his. This may be coincidental or not. We also have a L497+ man from Lemnos in the G Project. This is an island off Turkey closely associated with the Etruscans. This may also be coincidental.
Apparently sensing a problem with ignoring a possible Etruscan connection, the authors wrote. “Whereas the presence of Mideastern mtDNA in Tuscany supports the model of early Iron Age migrants from Anatolia (putative Etruscans) colonizing Central Italy, the occurrence of the ....L497 lineage in Italy is most likely associated to migratory flows from the north.” And they wrote this because they are dating L497 in Europe to 10,000 yrs ago and need to provide a non-Etruscan explanation.
They also try to tie L13 distribution to areas associated with “expansions into the Greek Aegean beginning approximately 7000 yrs ago....and its presence in Provence, southern Italy and Ukraine may reflect subsequent Greek Iron Age colonization events” and maybe with the Sea Peoples because of its presence among Palestinians and Druze.
But the problem here is that the G project L13 data show the highest concentrations of L13 in Europe is actually among German-speaking populations much to the north. They did not provide a map for L13. And L13 is found all over Europe according to G project data with the same presence they point out as having particular significance for Provence, southern Italy and Ukraine. Because L13 men have unusual DYS385 values, their samples can be identified in larger data sources, such as YHRD, and this observation about actual L13 distribution is Europe is derived from all these sources.
We have also identified important new G subgroups since they ended their testing, and they ignored multiple significant G subgroups, such as L141, L140 and L177 which have been in the G tree for several years and just revised the nomenclature to exclude these valid cateories. It is understandable that they would want to aggregate certain categories to have enough samples to make maps, etc., but it is a disappointment that they did not test the samples for these important subgroups rather than instead testing them for about a half dozen equivalent SNPs or private SNPs from the Stanford lab. But maybe I do not understand all the circumstances or limitations.
In general, it was extremely useful that they did additional subtyping of their samples and published the data, and the study is welcome for that reason, but there is much with which to disagree or to debate in the conclusions.
Ray Banks, Administrator, Haplogroup G Project".
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 03:24:00 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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palamede
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2012, 04:20:59 AM »

You G folks might be interested in these two posts.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10579.msg131155#msg131155

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10579.msg131166#msg131166
"
You mentioned the period of G2 but there is a huge amount of Caucasus HT's in the oldest P15  and P16 which would be Eneolithic/Bronze ages in Middle East: 4500 to 3300 BC? 1.5K back to founder suggests a very small, if any, growth but around 5K Ybp must have had substantial growth in the Caucasus after first 60 generations or so. After that a SNP mutation occurs on an average of every 11 generations or 275 years.
...

G-P15 Founder GA=   269   6,726
G-P16 GB coal=   208   5,208
G-P15 GA coal=   200   4,998
G-M285 GB coal=   171   4,275
G-P20 GB coal=   151   3,767
G-M406 GB coal=   143   3,575
G-M406 GB coal=   143   3,575
G-U1 GB coal=   126   3,150
R-L21 GB coal=   105   2,624
G-Page19 GB coal=   92   2,294
G-M527 GB coal=   89   2,235
G-L497 GB coal=   83   2,082
G-M485 GB coal=   82   2,038
G-L91 GB coal=   78   1,959
G-M377 GB coal=   70   1,758"
Other foolishnesses. We know for certain that G-L91 was present in Europe (in Italy) at least 5300 years before present and probably many thousands of years before (Oetzi) and other G-s at least 7000YBP.

Foolishnesses on foolishnesses.
Calculation of  coalescence and MRCA dates :

I agree with you. This coalescence time measures the last demographic leap which created the most great part of nowadays lineages and main branchings.
In fact it must be a kind of barycentric age of the birth of the new haplotypes in the haplogroup.
But for G-L91,  Mark Jost gave a MRCA of 304,6 generations, therefore   7615  years (gen=25years) to 9442 years (gen=31 years), range of  7400BC-5600BC time of the first neolithic expansion in  Greece 7500-6500BC, Balkans 7000-6000BC and Western Mediterranean islands 6500-5500BC.  I suppose they calculated this MRCA by taking into account the most divergent branches to avoid taking the less divergent (and therefore more recent) branches.  
I am not mathematician(and probably too old to learn) and I don't know artifacts (and traps) and used hypothesises to build equations and what are the limit conditions and so on.
Anyway, to avoid traps about demographic fluctuations, disappeared lineages, selections biases and so on, I think the majority of scientifics are right to introduce a fudge factor between pedigree rate (father-son rate) and evolutionary effective rate. This factor is  certainly variable according to the population history but could be great for prehistoric weak populations. Zhivotowsky-Underhill (Zhiv)  factor is 3.6 for relatively recent populations like New Zealand Maoris and Balkans Roms, but could be greater for paleolithic populations.

European paleolithic origins :

My opinion is hg I and R1 have been  indigenous in Europe since Aurignacian (45.000BP cal) and Gravettian (35.000BP cal) . I prefer hg I (brother of hg J) as Aurignacian coming from Zagros Baradostian (Marcel Otte) and hg R1a and R1b (brothers of R2 and cousin of hg Q)  as Gravettian coming from Central Asia/South Siberia (Marcel Otte), R1b in Western Europe and R1a in Eastern Europe. N1c (with the very european Finns and other european peoples, but also very east-asiatic Yakoutes, these features well verified by autosomal analysis). I have no idea of the causes and times of these raciations, but as hg N is brother of hg O, we can suppose N was originally east-asiatic and a N1c Y-hg branch dominated some weak europeid population (which gaves the great majority of genes except Siberian Y-chr  and  entered into Europe after LGM about 12,000BC and arrives in Finland and Baltic countries (Kunda and Narva cultures ?)  and North Scandinavia (Komsa culture) about 10.000b (Partially mixing with R1a Swiderians and I1 Fosna ?).
The same process for R1b in Africa. It came by Near East or Italy (I prefer Italy because Near East is a jam of haplogroups) into Africa probably during the first Gravettian around 35,000-30,000BC (certainly long time before LGM)  along the Lybian coast and got into Sahara (Fezzan Touaregs are partly the survivings) and during the droughts, a lot of neolithic survivors went to Tchad Basin mixing with local women.

I don't agree with all your ideas, mainly about Italy sources of a lot of european clades, but I think there was an Italian refugia during LGM (25,000-19,000BP cal-23,000-17,000BC cal) :  
Probably I2a1-M26 in Sardinia, R1b-L50 sub_clades (except franco-cantabrian R1b-P312).
For South and East of Balkanic refugia, R1b-M269 and R1b-L23 subclades (except R-L50 and subclades).
North  Balkans and Danube plains refugia for subclades I1, I2a2, I2b, I2c already existing. I1 which is a node with a lot of SNPs( now 24 counted in ISOGG) knew its first durable expansion from a unique man in the first entry in Scandiavia by south after Young Dryas. I2b arrived too late to Baltic coast and found I1 already well established in the Scandinavia of this time (with very different coast lines from today).
I2 probably already divided in clades before LGM, knew a first small expansion after LGM and before Young Dryas(11,700-10,000BC cal), I2a2a-M223 nortwards following the I1 small clan, the most expansive was I2a1b-M423 from North Balkans/Danubian plains towards Moldavia, Ukraina, Bielorussia ( in contact with R1a coming from Don and Dniepr basins towards Poland (Swiderian ?)), Serbia and Bulgaria (in contact with the old (therefore more divergent)  R1b-L23xR1b-L50  subclades, less in Greece and West Anatolia. Probably I2a2, I2a1b, I2c and  R1b-L23xR1b-L50 were conducted in Anatolia and Middle East by IE invasions long time later.
Knowledge of hg I in Middle East and Caucasus was deceived by Nasidze and other studies with wrong results and it remains difficult to know the truth .
FTDNA Armenians give I2c-L596/L597 3,7%, I2a2a3-P78 0,8%, I2a2a3-M223xP78, 0,5% I2a1b1-P41.2 0,3%.
Some claimed to find I* in its origin location in Middle East, others said there is no I* nowadays, I think it has beeni not enough credibility to I* survivors until now.    

L150, L50, L11, Hambourgian U106, Magdalenian P312, L21, U152, Z196 were born during LGM (from 24,000BC to 17,000BC), Younger Dryas (11,700BC-10.000BC) was certainly important to the birth and development of their subclades, but I think Younger Dryas was not hard enough and numerous lineages survived during some centuries of hard time, but a lot less hard than LGM).
L150, L50, L11, U106 born around Alpes, L21 North of Pyrenees expanding along Atlantic shores, Z196 South of Pyrenees expanding Iberia and later Northwards (during Azilian,  sooner adapted to temperate climate ?, North-South clade), U152 between Pyrenees and West Alpes expanding Eastwards along Med coast and Rhone-Rhin behind U106 and later Southwards thru Alpes before younger Dryas, maybe also, Italian U152 were sooner adapted to temperate subclades.

With Corded ware cultures (R1a) probably born in South Poland (2900BC) , there was an expansion in Germany and some parts of the Scandinavia (2600BC).
R1b (40% in South-West Norway) came into Scandinavia thru Doggerland (9,500BC-7,000BC) like hunters/fishers/gatherers, a few times after I1 thru Baltic or previous great lakes (10,000BC), certainly R1b later also with megalithic agricultarists (4000BC-3000BC),, and of course later until modern times in a very small flow.  

How was the Neolithic expansions ?

Maybe, already during Mesolithics the E1b1b-V13 ancestor came from Lybia coast to Epire/Albania and the ancestor of J2b came from Anatolia to North Greece, some J2a, G2a,  E1b1b_M123 went from Anatolia and Levant to Cyprus and Greek Islands.

We are in a time of great and far-away migrations, of  mixings  and a time we have forgotten our lineage origins. This was less true for our great-parents, at least in noble, old bourgeoisy  and peasant lineages and the great majority of nowadays people, at least in the European mixture of marxist-minded and liberal-minded people are unable to understand the old mentalities.

I think to understand the old times it needs to know the lineage and origin feelings was very strong. Certainly they didn't know their haplotypes, but they knew their ancestors and their origins several centuries later. Then, we cannot know the level of mixing between populations. History and etnolology shows different levels of mixings according to the times and regions.
According to the clans and tribes, neolithic migrants kept a long souvenir of their lineages and origins, even with some mixings with  other lineages according to the needs. I told this because I guess maritime migrants  kept their originality during a long time, living of maritime activities versus inland activities of more indigenous or mixed populations. I think the originality of maritime and more commercial peoples we can find during specific cultures, the first Cardial,the first Megalithic, the first  Stelea people, the first Bell Beakers, then these cultures expanded from maritime clans to  inland clans like a fashion. If there is the chance of archeological findings with skeletons which can be sampled, we sampled the first and best representives of new cultures and it is certainly one of the causes of over-representation of hg G2a which was the precursor of neolithic migrants often.
Other remark: In this time, it shoud not be difficult to distinguish brown and oriental south-eastern migrants from local populations. Phenotypes from autosomal genomes were not segregated from Y-haplogroups yet a lot.  

Except G2a3b1a2-L497,  The neolithic  european G2a clades  (G2a2, G2a3a1, G2a3b1xG2a3b1a2, ...) expanded by maritime ways to Western Med. shores and Atlantic coasts of Iberia, probably already in Cardial times . I think these colonies remained conscious of their origins and kept some contacts which allowed  them  to  transmit technics (not mandatory to have new important migrations,), this until to minoan and mycenian times. From 1100BC, It was phenician (and other syrians and cananeans with them) expansion  and from 800BC  greek expansion. For the 2 expansions, the first commercial posts with few people were followed by a lot of settlements. There were also little  anatolian migrations  accompanying the back migration of a part of the sea peoples returning to their original islands and continental coasts.
These expansions were J2a , J1, G2a, E-M78, E-M123, E-V13, T2 and ... R-L13.
Maybe J1 with E-M78 were already in the epipaleolithic capsian migration (Zenetes). M81, mainly represented by Masmoudian (Chleuh) Atlas populations descending from Aterian and Saharian Sanhadjas. Maybe, paleolithic Oranian culture comes from last Iberic Solutreans during LGM.

G2a3b1a2-L497 or its ancestor were on western Sea Black shores and Danube mouthes at the beginning of agricultural Neolithic, or maybe already before with the first sheep along the shores of Black Sea still isolated and shrinken. We must notice the biggest G2a3b1 frequency is in North-West Caucasus in Adyghean republic (Maikop), certainly  Maikop culture people were G2a3b1 mainly.    
The samples of the first LBK  in Germany (5000BC) shows the first G2a3 settlers (alreadyG2a3b1a2 ?)  or a disappeared brother subclade.
Its subclade G-L43,L42 seems dominating in Switzerland and South Germany.
Its welsh  subclade G-M494 dys594=11  is really born in Wales because I noticed it is included in a larger subclade (with different STR value)  also very present in Wales.  
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 04:53:21 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2012, 11:29:21 AM »

Why would you say I comes from the Zagros? Very little I in Iran and it can be explained due to to ottoman admixture, slavic admix, vikings etc
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2012, 11:43:35 AM »

My remarks in italics

I think it is interesting to meditate what Ray Banks writes on Rootsweb about hg. G:

"With regard to dating in this new G study and presuming you agree with the authors’ methodology:
They break up the somewhat large M406 (G2a3a) group into eastern and western portions that each originated about 5000 yrs after the origin of M406, but no such cleavage times are provided for the other major European G subgroups. And it seems they are thus equating the time of origin of L13 and L497 (which constitute over half the G in Europe) with the arrival of these subgroups in Europe.
==> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a3a_(Y-DNA)
Turkey King RL-2009 n=523 G=9,2%=48 G2a=37 G2a3a=10
Georgia Battaglia-2009 n=66 G2a=32,6% G2a3a=1,5%
Greece Battaglia- (2009) 3.3% of 92 Greek samples were G. This 3.3% was composed of 1.1% G2a3a (M406+) and the remainder other types of G2a.

King RJ-2011, among 57 men at Nea Nikomedeia 4% were G with none G2a3a (M406+) and among 57 at Sesklo/Dimini 4% were G2a3a and additional unspecified G men were 2%. And on the Peloponnese, of 57 men in the area of Lerna/Franchtihi Cave, 4% were G2a3a and 2% other G.
Local estimation of Ray Banks for L497, L30, DYS390=21 (M406)  :
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupgproject/local-g-s


Thus L13 is 7100 yrs, and L497 is 10,870 yrs and Italian M406 is 8800 yrs ago.
L497 is an all European subgroup, and L13, and M406 are both Asian and European.
In comparing the 67 markers of our M406, then L13, participants from Asia with the 67 markers of European persons in the same subgroups, just about every Asian sample has a variety of European samples among the nearest matches and showing genetic distances in the early 20s. Some have near matches in the teens. These matches are almost close enough that one could use the unsophisticated pedigree method of calculating time relationships, and it seems these men probably share ancestors more likely to have lived 2000 to 3000 yrs ago than 8000 to 10000 yrs ago (as in the study). [Note: It is understood that the very nearest matches likely eccentrically mutated toward the other sample’s values, and I ignore these in comparing those 67 marker samples with significant genetic distances]
==> Ray Banks were very surprised by the archeological dates of some old samples with hg G. He was doubful because not in accordance with his calculations and spoke of dead branches (familiar tune since Palestinian AMH skeletons !).  

There is a separate problem with the huge European L497 group. In the 1000 Genomes Project L497 has an unusually large number of equivalent SNPs. We have not been able to break these open into subgroups. This suggests that the L497 group existed as a very small family grouping for a long period of time, and the location could have been most anywhere.
==> huge group for hg G groups. There is a small subgroup L43,L42 and welsh subgroup dys594=11. 2 years ago, I tried a tentative break but nobody was interested.  

Their use of the 10,870 years ago figure for L497 creates an additional problem. They show a L497 concentration in n.w. Italy. This is not precisely the configuration of the Etruscan rule, but with the strong presence in Etruscan-ruled Corsica. it is close, and it raises the possibility of a connection between L497 and the Etruscan migration to Italy nearly 3000 yrs ago. The one L497 man from n.w. Italy in the 1000 Genomes Project seems to have the oldest L497 sample. All the other L497 samples branch off of his. This may be coincidental or not. We also have a L497+ man from Lemnos in the G Project. This is an island off Turkey closely associated with the Etruscans. This may also be coincidental.
==> The old spectre of the so-called etruscan migration.
In fact, in Table 1, there is no NW Italy or Etrury samples (Confusion with the mapping which creates a connection between higher frequences in Switzerland and Corsica), you can see local estimation of Ray Banks for L497, L30, DYS390=21 (M406) I refer above, there is no great frequency of G in Tuscany/North Latium except some small valleys like Mugello, maybe.
Table 1 shows important concentrations of L497 : Germany=3.4% (specially South-West), Eastern and South Iberia 1.9% and 2% France 2,2% Corsica 5,2%, Switzerland 5,1% (probably prolonged in Tyrol), Italy 2,8% (As many in NW as in central Italy), Croatians 1,6% Moldovans 3,4% Romanians 1,8% Bulgaria 1,9%.
Frequencies in Western Europe were relatively known, but these in Eastern Balkans are very new.
My God, How often has  this unique L497+ man from Lemnos been quoted by Ray Banks and supporters of Etruscan migration. I don't reject some oriental immigrants like the Corinthian Greek father (immigrant to the Etruscan  town of  Tarquinia near Roma) of Tarquinius the Elder,5th king of Roma and other family founders of powerful Etruscan traders but no massive arrivals. Etruscan language is a parent of Alpine Rhetian language, therefore both non-IE indigenous languages. Don't forget Greek, Trojan, Lydian, Lycian, Louwite, Hittite, Thrace, Phrygian, Armenian and almost every Anatolian languages of this time were indo-european.
Corsica was never Etruscan-ruled, except the coastal trading.
G2a3b1a2-M497 came into Central and Western Europe from the western shores of Black Sea during LBK (See G2a3 (probably G2a3b1a2) in a German site about 5000BC). It was probably born during the final mesolithic around Danube mouthes. Notice that the high frequencies of G2a3b1 are in NW Caucasus in Adyghean, Tcherkesse and Kabardian peoples. They  (with their sheep) followed the lower sea level of the North Black Sea.

Other G subgroups were maritime and settled islands, Med and Atlantic coasts , they came with Cardial (5000BC in Avellaner cave-Catalaunia), they were the first propagators of the Stelae (Treilles cave 3000BC) , then the first Bell Beaker culture with their old and new settlements and trading posts along the coasts. I see them as Sea Gypsies like Bugis in Indonesia and like Mokens in Burma and Thailand.  
 

Apparently sensing a problem with ignoring a possible Etruscan connection, the authors wrote. “Whereas the presence of Mideastern mtDNA in Tuscany supports the model of early Iron Age migrants from Anatolia (putative Etruscans) colonizing Central Italy, the occurrence of the ....L497 lineage in Italy is most likely associated to migratory flows from the north.” And they wrote this because they are dating L497 in Europe to 10,000 yrs ago and need to provide a non-Etruscan explanation.
They also try to tie L13 distribution to areas associated with “expansions into the Greek Aegean beginning approximately 7000 yrs ago....and its presence in Provence, southern Italy and Ukraine may reflect subsequent Greek Iron Age colonization events” and maybe with the Sea Peoples because of its presence among Palestinians and Druze.
But the problem here is that the G project L13 data show the highest concentrations of L13 in Europe is actually among German-speaking populations much to the north. They did not provide a map for L13. And L13 is found all over Europe according to G project data with the same presence they point out as having particular significance for Provence, southern Italy and Ukraine. Because L13 men have unusual DYS385 values, their samples can be identified in larger data sources, such as YHRD, and this observation about actual L13 distribution is Europe is derived from all these sources.

==> For L13, see local distribution by Ray Banks
The columns of table-1 are G-M201 total, G*-M201, G1*-M285 G1a-P20, G2*-P287, G2a*-P20, G2a2b-L91 (old G2a4), G2a1-P16, G2a2a-M286, G2a3*-M485, G2a3b1*-P303, G2a3b1a1*-U1, G2a3b1a2-L497, G2a3b1a1a-M527 G2a3a*-M406, G2a3a1-Page19, G2b-M297, G2c-M377.
I don't find G2a3-M485 and G-M527 in ISOGG and FTDNA draft.
I suppose G-M527 is G2a3b1a1a-L13 , son of G2a3b1a1-U1.  

Highest frequencies of G-M527/L13? in table-1: Ukraine 0,7% (n=597), Tatars(Russia) 0,6%(n=162), Germany=0,3%(n=321) Eastern Iberia 0,5%(n=206),  France 1,1% (n=93), Provence 0,5% (n=368) Sardinia 0,4% (n=519), Italy 1,0% n= 288, Switzerland 0,6% n=176, Crete 0,6%(n=361), Greece 1,6%(n=185),   Palestina 1,1% n=90, Druze(Israel) 1,0(n=307), Greeks(Phocea) 3,2%(n=31 ), Azeris(Iran)2,0%(n=297), Abhkazes 1,2%(n=162), Georgians 1,5%(n=66), Abazins 2,2%(n=90), Nogai 1,1%(n=87).
A lot of region sample with a unique man M527/L30+. except  6 for Azeris, 4 for Ukraine, 3 for Druzes, Greece and Italy , 2 for  Abazins,  Abhkazes, Georgians, Provence, Crete and Sardinia
The problem in Germany can be recent migrants. I know how many French studies are falsified by lack of care in selection, sometimes very roughly.


We have also identified important new G subgroups since they ended their testing, and they ignored multiple significant G subgroups, such as L141, L140 and L177 which have been in the G tree for several years and just revised the nomenclature to exclude these valid cateories. It is understandable that they would want to aggregate certain categories to have enough samples to make maps, etc., but it is a disappointment that they did not test the samples for these important subgroups rather than instead testing them for about a half dozen equivalent SNPs or private SNPs from the Stanford lab. But maybe I do not understand all the circumstances or limitations.
==> M is the letter for Stanford lab. For G hgs, L (like FTDNA's  Thomas Krahn laboratory) is more used. Is it a partial explanation of the bad mood of Thomas and Ray ?
L141 G2a3b between G2a3-L30 and G2a3b1a-P303
L140 G2a3b1a between G2a3b1a-P303 and (G2a3b1a1-U1 and G2a3b1a2-L497)
I think  Ray Banks is G2a3b1a3. G2a3b1a* and G2a3b1a3 have two or three jewish subgroups among their subgroups.
L177 G2a3b2   (Athey of the hg predictor is G2a3b2a)

In general, it was extremely useful that they did additional subtyping of their samples and published the data, and the study is welcome for that reason, but there is much with which to disagree or to debate in the conclusions.
Ray Banks, Administrator, Haplogroup G Project".

The "luminaries" (Here I stated Maliclavelli) of "Distinguishing the co-ancestries of haplogroup G Y-chromosomes in the populations of Europe and the Caucasus" are
Siiri Rootsi, Natalie M Myres, Alice A Lin, Mari Järve, Roy J King, Ildus Kutuev, Vicente M Cabrera, Elza K Khusnutdinova, Kärt Varendi, Hovhannes Sahakyan, Doron M Behar, Rita Khusainova, Oleg Balanovsky, Elena Balanovska, Pavao Rudan, Levon Yepiskoposyan, Ardeshir Bahmanimehr, Shirin Farjadian, Alena Kushniarevich, Rene J Herrera, Viola Grugni, Vincenza Battaglia, Carmela Nici, Francesca Crobu, Sena Karachanak, Baharak Hooshiar Kashani, Massoud Houshmand, Mohammad H Sanati, Draga Toncheva, Antonella Lisa, Ornella Semino, Jacques Chiaroni, Julie Di Cristofaro, Richard Villems, Toomas Kivisild and Peter A Underhill
By big letters,  don't show the order of importance for this paper or for good reputation but the name I (a real profane) have already stated and someone great number times.

It is an important work, but  I am unable to say if harsh critics are just or not. If they are objective or come from  more fondamental disagreements in thef ideas and conceptions.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 06:05:20 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
palamede
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2012, 01:03:24 PM »

Why would you say I comes from the Zagros? Very little I in Iran and it can be explained due to to ottoman admixture, slavic admix, vikings etc

hg I or its ancestor IJ comes into Europe from Asia long time ago during the paleolithic times.

When ? the first human arrival into Europe is dated about calibrated 45,000BP with a general agreement. We can think some descendants have succeded to survive until now. I follow Marcel Otte (Liège University) who considered the first European man come from the Baradostian culture in Zagros http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baradostian_culture
Approximative Baradostian beginning is approximative  36,000BC=38,000 equal the approximative Europe entry 45,000BP calibrated.
We have no I* in Eurasia, but we can think hg IJ ancestor of I and J was located in Middle East, and descendants of IJ* could be a good candidate. It cannot be haplogroup J, therefore the first european man was IJ* with all its SNPs before separation of J (8 SNPs are known according to ISOGG and FTDNA draft) or I* with one or several of its SNPs (7+5P19 in ISOGG, 9+5P19 in FTDNA draft). We can be certain the birth of I1 and I2 took place in Europe. I1* (24 and 22 known SNPs), I2 (2 and 3, only but older surviving branches).

In more, we can see nowadays regional populations with a lot of bearers of hg I are very  tall and they are the nearest of Cro_Magnon morphology.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 04:02:26 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
palamede
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 06:31:18 AM »

I have just done some slight corrections to my previous texts.

Some disagreements about datations and migrations must not  hide admiration and gratitude I feel for the great and marvellous work that Ray is carrying  on haplogroup G and other too neglected haplogroups.
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Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 05:10:57 PM »

Why would you say I comes from the Zagros? Very little I in Iran and it can be explained due to to ottoman admixture, slavic admix, vikings etc

hg I or its ancestor IJ comes into Europe from Asia long time ago during the paleolithic times.

When ? the first human arrival into Europe is dated about calibrated 45,000BP with a general agreement. We can think some descendants have succeded to survive until now. I follow Marcel Otte (Liège University) who considered the first European man come from the Baradostian culture in Zagros http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baradostian_culture
Approximative Baradostian beginning is approximative  36,000BC=38,000 equal the approximative Europe entry 45,000BP calibrated.
We have no I* in Eurasia, but we can think hg IJ ancestor of I and J was located in Middle East, and descendants of IJ* could be a good candidate. It cannot be haplogroup J, therefore the first european man was IJ* with all its SNPs before separation of J (8 SNPs are known according to ISOGG and FTDNA draft) or I* with one or several of its SNPs (7+5P19 in ISOGG, 9+5P19 in FTDNA draft). We can be certain the birth of I1 and I2 took place in Europe. I1* (24 and 22 known SNPs), I2 (2 and 3, only but older surviving branches).

In more, we can see nowadays regional populations with a lot of bearers of hg I are very  tall and they are the nearest of Cro_Magnon morphology.


How can you be certain the birth of I1 and I2 took place in Europe? I1 I agree with but I personally think I2 and I were born in Anatolia.
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