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Author Topic: Bell Beakers versus Bell Beakers - R1b Complications  (Read 2275 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2012, 10:53:21 AM »


I kind of imagine the beaker people were welcomed because of their usefulness to the natives and became an element in pockets among the natives and to some degree participated in the traditions of the natives that had been around in the grooved ware phase. I sort of see that every tribe or chiefdom in Neolithic Britain would have wanted their beaker element.  However, in time the beaker folk's approach may have come to form an alternative rival element that soon eclipsed the old and established hegemony.  However that process seems unclear to me.  In Ireland beaker people buried in two traditions.  One was in Wedge Tombs which seem to have a construction span that almost perfectly fits the Irish beaker phase and a distribution in the rocky west and north uplands and other niches elsewhere.  It looks like some sort of more macro separation between beakers and the older elements on the better agricultural lands.  I think that makes sense when you consider that metal-orientated people will be interested in the area of rock exposure.  I think there is a hint that there was more of a macro separation of beaker and native traditions for 2-300 years.  A second Irish beaker burial tradition of cremations in pits with token beaker deposits resembles native traditions and I wonder if this was the natives.  This discusses it in more detail:

http://charles-mount.ie/wp/?p=349

Strangely in Ireland, more classic beaker type single burials date from the period when beakers were being used as domestic ware but had been replaced by food vessels for burial.  It is almost suggestive to me of a period where beaker traditions were an element but that their traditions were not yet dominant, perhaps spanning 2-300 years. after which they became dominant throughout Ireland.  So, perhaps we are seeing the phase where beakers moved from a novel element to a dominant tradition across 2-300 years.  


I hate to say things like this because I know there will be those that will accuse me of being an R1b cheerleader, but I'll say it anyway: I don't think anyone welcomed BB. In places like Ireland, R1b is too dominant for there not to have been an almost complete destruction of the prior people by war. Even a genetic advantage doesn't seem like the culprit to me.

Also I wouldnt underestimate the ability of lineages descending from just a few poweful people to utterly change the y-DNA of a place like Ireland.  Indeed, a huge chunk of Irish L21 seems to be down to the descendants of a relatively few men many of whom date to the early historic period and others to the post-beaker prehistoric period.  If a similar process was underway 4500 years ago then their impact could have been massive judging by what was achieved by some lines in 1000 years or so.  

That is all fine, but the lineages were/are all overwhelmingly L21. If L21 was invited in from northern France, over several hundred years you would start to see a fusion of Y-DNA. That would dictate that at least a small amount of the successful lineages that are attributable to the last 1000 years would have been L11*, G2a, J2, U152, etc., but you see none of that in Ireland. I just get the feeling that L21 got to the British Isles early (3000 BC?) and routed all those who stood in their paths (sans the women, because we now know R1b types liked variety). Not a pretty picture by today's politically correct standards, but I don't think anyone should apologize for being a part of successful lineage.

There may well have been a point when the beaker groups started to challenge the old elites and that probably did lead to bloodshed.  However, except in cases of massive invasions its never in the interests of a small dominant group to kill off the toilers of the land.  They actually faced what on the surface was a more sophisticated native group who had shown themselves capable of controlling large numbers of people to build massive monuments in the immediate pre-beaker period and had pretty well exactly the same sort of military technology (copper is not much of an advantage) and fighting techniques (archery).  I think the beaker clans (for want of a better word) may have presented a more attractive perhaps more inclusive option to many of the non-elite natives who may have come to see them as the elite.  Its easy to imagine how some sort of rather exclusive, theocratical elite of old grey elders that excluded much of their own society may have predisposed the natives to look to more outward looking, exotic and shiny new people.   That is not to say that once in power the beaker groups didnt take full advantage and grab many resources and expand massively.  I just think its pretty difficult in our present state of knowledge to see some sort beaker armada gaining a quick knock-out of the natives.  I think a more multi-stage nuanced model is needed.  

Yet another possibility in Ireland is that the distribution of the beaker wedge tombs could suggest that they initially settled the less agriculturally desirable areas of the west and uplands which were however were the most promising areas for people interested in metals.  A lot of these areas were in decline too by 2500BC from an agricultural point of view and so an old elite more interested in localised agricultural power in the best lands (mostly in the east) could have had a period of coexistence or stand off (take your pick).  However, the fact that beaker pot was used in non-classic beaker and pretty native looking contexts in the east doesnt look to me like the behavour of deep antagonism.  It also has to be remembered that the concept of comonality among the natives probably did not extend beyond fairly small chiefdoms and I dont think a rich native elite in the east would care (and  may even have been happy) if some marginal tribes on the less attractive lands was taken over by beaker lineages.  There is a long long history of one group of natives being happy to allow potentially dangerous groups in to knock out troublesome neighbours only for it to badly backfire on them later.  You could almost call it the great Achilles Hell of the peoples of the Atlantic area.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 10:57:41 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
samIsaack
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2012, 11:19:18 AM »

@Rich

How would SRY2627 fit into all of this?


So, I guess I'm talking to myself?
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2012, 10:18:01 PM »

@Rich

How would SRY2627 fit into all of this?

It probably wouldn't fit at all into Sion nor Aosta as I've never seen an SYR2627+ from Switzerland nor Italy. In fact, I think most Z196 from Italy are part of the Z274 branch. As far as BB, SRY2627 is too far downstream for me to even guess as to how it could have played out.
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Arch Y.
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« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2012, 12:10:05 AM »

@Rich

How would SRY2627 fit into all of this?

Much too early for SRY2627 by at least one thousand years. I tend to favor the Hurles estimate which puts it right at or near the transition of the LBA into the Iron Age. The one thing I would like to know is if SRY2627's later presence in Iberia and high frequency attributed to the Bell Beakers from the Western Pyrenees.

Arch
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 12:10:53 AM by Arch Y. » Logged
Arch Y.
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« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2012, 12:13:43 AM »

@Rich

How would SRY2627 fit into all of this?

It probably wouldn't fit at all into Sion nor Aosta as I've never seen an SYR2627+ from Switzerland nor Italy. In fact, I think most Z196 from Italy are part of the Z274 branch. As far as BB, SRY2627 is too far downstream for me to even guess as to how it could have played out.

Currently, my closest GD SRY2627+ is from Asiago, Italy. SRY2627 has at least one entrant from Switzerland in our "club."

Arch

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samIsaack
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« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2012, 10:52:27 PM »

@Rich

How would SRY2627 fit into all of this?

Much too early for SRY2627 by at least one thousand years. I tend to favor the Hurles estimate which puts it right at or near the transition of the LBA into the Iron Age. The one thing I would like to know is if SRY2627's later presence in Iberia and high frequency attributed to the Bell Beakers from the Western Pyrenees.

Arch


I knew the age estimate was still the same and that the time period that Rocca was talking about would better suit DF27, but I didn't know if SRY2627 was still viewed as being brought by a specific group of people (Urnfielders, perhaps?) Or if we are simply a haplogroup without a name, which seems to be the case. I certainly relate to my haplogroups status as being something of an outsider, a desperado of sorts :)
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
OConnor
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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2012, 09:45:25 AM »

Alan Trowel:
"Of course an alternative for the sudden popularity of single burial across Ireland is maybe influences coming from Britain around the time Bronze appeared.  Its still really a matter of interpretation rather than open-shut though."

It makes me think about Chritianity sweeping Ireland. How did that process come about? I don't think it was a population replacement.  Everybody wants the best for their deceased. Perhaps new ideas swept fast. A matter of keeping up with the Jone's in some instances.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:47:23 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2012, 09:12:13 AM »

... It makes me think about Chritianity sweeping Ireland. How did that process come about?
I'm not saying it was all pretty, but there may be cases where the invisible hand of God was at work.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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