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intrestedinhistory
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« on: May 07, 2012, 09:13:50 PM »

What to make of the the alans and ossetians? Did alans exist in central asia? are they actually admixed with iranians or just iranian nomds? why dont they have any r1a? is r1b nw iranian admixture? what to make of their ydna I? what did they speak before? or are they mostly the descendants of alans and not natives? or did war eliminate their r1a? how northern european are they? and it seems like their G clades is restricted to them.
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palamede
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2012, 06:11:57 AM »

What to make of the the alans and ossetians? Did alans exist in central asia? are they actually admixed with iranians or just iranian nomds? why dont they have any r1a? is r1b nw iranian admixture? what to make of their ydna I? what did they speak before? or are they mostly the descendants of alans and not natives? or did war eliminate their r1a? how northern european are they? and it seems like their G clades is restricted to them.
I am not a specialist of Ossetians at all, but I can read in wikipedia about alan people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

"The descendants of the Alans, who live in the autonomous republics of Russia and Georgia, speak the Ossetic language which belongs to the Northeastern Iranian language group and is the only remnant of the Scytho-Sarmatian dialect continuum, which once stretched over much of the Pontic steppe and Central Asia. Modern Ossetic has two major dialects: Digor, spoken in the western part of North Ossetia; and Iron, spoken in the rest of Ossetia. A third branch of Ossetic, Jassic (Jász), was formerly spoken in Hungary. The literary language, based on the Iron dialect, was fixed by the national poet, Kosta Xetagurov (1859–1906)."
[/quote]
The initial Alans came from South-Kazakstan and part of Ouzbekistan, there were neighbours of the ancestors of modern Tadjiks and as the Tadkik, Ossetiann dialects are memebers of  North-East Iranian sub-family. IT was a part of the Sarmatian migration westwards.
1) In what part, are  modern Ossetians descendants of initial Alans ? and what part for each of the  present groups or tribes of Ossetians ?
2) In what part, were initial Alans R1a ?

There are 2 fundamental questions: I begin by the second one.

No doubt, Scythyans and Samartians were R1a predominantly. But to understand see the present haplogroup in Kazakstan. Probably in the antiquity, R1a were predominant in Kazakstan, now it has been C3 since the Turco-Mongol invasions, but by trive or by group of tribes, it is a lot more complex : C3 dominates in the majority of tribes but not in an important minority.
I don't know tribes where R1a and R1b-M73 are dominant but there are important remianing traces until 20% in a lot of tribes. R1a is more dominant in Kirghizistan eastwards  and countries southwardsn   There are also some percents of f Q.

They are 2 important groups of tribes in North-Kazahkstan where C3 is not dominant.
- Naimans (come from Mongolia)  with the easter haplogroup O3 is dominant.
- Argyns (come from ???) with G1 very dominant. Firstly, predominance of G1were found in a small argyn tribe the Madyars, but it is now confirmed in every Argyn tribes. The vast territory of Argyns is around the big city Karaganda and recent Astana, new capital of Kazakstan. See wiki maps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Juz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyns

In this old and federation of tribes, ths origin of a tribe  can be different and in the antiquit in Central Asia, R1a was  dominant certainly, but with important minorities of G1, G2, J2, R2 and L before the comings of Q3, C3, O3 and O2.
  
Therefore it is already possible one (or several) sarmatian tribes were G2a1  predominant. We must notice in Western Caucasus J2 and G2a3 are predominant, G2a3a in SW for Geogians and G2a3b in NW for Tcherkesses, Adygheans, Kabards, Abkhazes. I remind J2 and J1 are predominant in NE Caucasus in Ingouches, Tchetchenes and majorities of tribes on Daghestan. But the big majority of the Ossetians, mostly the Irons,  are G2a1a.  
 

In Ossetia, Digors and Irons doesn't  givne the same haplogroup frequencies at all:


Jassic in Hungary (important modern city of Jassy In Roumania) was an ethnic which have existed until modern times and they spoke their language until 18th century.
In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians
Subgroups:
Iron in the east and south form a larger group of Ossetians. Irons are divided into several subgroups: Kudar, Tual (including Urstual), Chsan and North Irons.
- Kudar (sometimes misspelled Tual, after the indigenous Dvals people), the southern group of Ossetians.
- Tual in the central part of Ossetia.
- Chsan in the east of South Ossetia.

Digor in the west. They came under the influence of the neighbouring Kabarday people who introduced Islam. Today the two main Digor districts in North Ossetia are Digora district or Digorskiy rayon (with Digora as its centre) and Irafskiy rayon or Iraf district (with Chikola as its centre). Digora district is Christian while some parts of Iraf district are Muslim. The dialect spoken in Digor part of North Osetia is Digor, the most archaic form of Ossetian language.


In Balanovsky et al.-2011
Ossets-Iron_ (n=230) 1% G2a1-P16 73% G2a1a-P18 1% G2a3b1_P303
Ossets-Digor (n=127) 0% G2a1-P16 56% G2a1a-P18 5% G2a3b1_P303

During a long time in late antiquity, first middle ages they were an important alanic kingdom which dominates Kouban and North Caucasus. Probably a part of indigenous people in the valley along the most commercial and military  trans-caucasian  road thru Daryal Passes began speaking alanic instead of old caucasian dialects.

Some years ago, before recent massive samples, I read a book about Alanians, the author notices anthropologists showed the growing importance of local caucasian features in alanic skeletons of old burials.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 08:03:38 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 07:19:58 AM »

It could be that some of our ancestors were Jassic and entered Western Europe through Hungary in the 13the century:

From Wikipedia:

The Ossetians descend from the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe (Scythian subgroup of the Iranic ethnolinguistic group).[12] About AD 200, the Alans were the only branch of the Sarmatians to keep their culture in the face of a Gothic invasion, and the Alans remaining built up a great kingdom between the Don and the Volga, according to Coon, The Races of Europe. Between AD. 350 and 374, the Huns destroyed the Alan kingdom, and a few survive to this day in the Caucasus as the Ossetes.

In the 8th century a consolidated Alan kingdom, referred to in sources of the period as Alania, emerged in the northern Caucasus Mountains, roughly in the location of the latter-day Circassia and the modern North Ossetia–Alania. At its height, Alania was a centralized monarchy with a strong military force and benefited from the Silk Road.

Forced out of their medieval homeland (south of the River Don in present-day Russia) during Mongol rule, Alans migrated towards and over the Caucasus mountains, where they subsequently would form three ethnographical groups; the Iron, Digor, and Kudar. The Jassic people were a group that migrated in the 13th century to Hungary.

Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 07:35:51 AM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
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palamede
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 07:46:38 AM »

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« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 08:00:54 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 08:35:42 AM »

So do Alans come from Central Asia (north uzbekistan/south kazakhstan) or from southern russia/pontic caspian steepe?

Is alanic ancestry still present in central asia?
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 08:37:02 AM »

Tadjik is SW Iranian although NE iranian was soken among their ancestros in the past (ie Sogdhian) and Yaghnobi is NE iranian too.

Also where do the other ydnas come from? Such as G, L, R1b?

Iranian neolithic?

Were there people in central asia prior to that?
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 08:42:20 AM »

Or were alans forced out of Kazakhstan due to pressure? How would autosomal dna and ydna be different if that didnt happen?

And is it true tatars have alan ancestry?

It seems scythians and alans only spread so far because they were forced out of their homelands in kazakhstan.

Kazakhstan seems like it was more populated till these nomads were forced out.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 08:46:16 AM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 09:34:48 AM »

Tadjik is SW Iranian although NE iranian was soken among their ancestros in the past (ie Sogdhian) and Yaghnobi is NE iranian too.

Also where do the other ydnas come from? Such as G, L, R1b?

Iranian neolithic?

Were there people in central asia prior to that?
There are a lot of people much better versed on this subject than I am.  I can tell you that my particular R1b (L2+) is a near match with the Ossetian modal on y-search.  Or at least it used to.  I think someone pulled it off ysearch.  Additionally the ancient y-DNA matches are Tajik which leads to Iranian origins.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 04:13:25 PM »

Tajiks have R1b?

Which lineages match tajiks?
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2012, 04:34:23 PM »

Tajiks have R1b?

Which lineages match tajiks?

I couldn't find the reference I was looking for but here is one:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/hvk02w6165g0q740/

The study found high rates of R1b1c among some Central Asian and Volga-Ural peoples, as Tajiks
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R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 09:46:58 AM »

Isnt that v88 an african or SW asian marker? There arent much in common between volga-ural finno ugric speakers and tajiks.Unless indoiranians assimilated some of them which I doubt. What does this weird african line have to do with anything?
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palamede
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 10:20:12 AM »

Tadjik is SW Iranian although NE iranian was soken among their ancestros in the past (ie Sogdhian) and Yaghnobi is NE iranian too.

Also where do the other ydnas come from? Such as G, L, R1b?

Iranian neolithic?

Were there people in central asia prior to that?

What is Yaghnobi ? wikipedia :
Yaghnobi people, or Yagnobian people, (Yaghnobi:yaγnōbī́t/Tajik: яғнобиҳо,/Persian: یغنابی‌ها‎) is the name of an isolated people who live in the Sughd province of Tajikistan in the valleys of the Yagnob, Kul and Varzob rivers. These are the last living relics of the great Sogdian nation that once inhabited most of Central Asia beyond the Oxus/Amu Darya River. The Soghdian language gradually gave way to Persian after the 5th century AD, with the latter largely supplanting the former by the 10th century AD. It is nothing short of a miracle that the Sogdian language and people have survived to the present in the small numbers of the Yaghnobi people and their language.
The 1926 and 1939 census data gives the number of Yaghnabi speakers as approximately 1,800. In 1955, M. Bogolyubov estimated the number of Yaghnabi native speakers as more than 2,000. In 1972, A. Khromov estimated 1,509 native speakers in the Yaghnob valley and about 900 elsewhere. The estimated number of Yagnobi people is approximately 25,000
.
The Yaghnobi language[1] is a living East Iranian language (the other living members being Pashto, Ossetic and the Pamir languages). Yaghnobi is spoken in the upper valley of the Yaghnob River in the Zarafshan area of Tajikistan by the Yaghnobi people. It is considered to be a direct descendant of Sogdian and has often been called Neo-Sogdian in academic literature
According to Encyclopædia Iranica, the Northeastern group includes most Eastern Iranian languages, including Pashto and Pamir languages, while it does not include the Old-Iranian Avestan language.[1]
However, SIL Ethnologue lists the following languages as Northeastern Iranian:
Avestan, ca. 1000 – 7th c. BC (classification uncertain)
Bactrian, ca. 4th c. BC – 9th c. AD
Khwarezmian ca. 4th c. BC – 13th c. AD
Sogdian, from ca. the 4th c. BC.
Yaghnobi
Scythian
Scytho-Sarmatian, from ca. the 8th c. BC
Ossetian (dialects: Iron, Digor, Jassic)


Ok, although mainly descendants of Sogdians and Bactrians, Tadjiks speak a Persian dialect (SW Iranian) nowadays.

There are a lot of people much better versed on this subject than I am.  I can tell you that my particular R1b (L2+) is a near match with the Ossetian modal on y-search.  Or at least it used to.  I think someone pulled it off ysearch.  Additionally the ancient y-DNA matches are Tajik which leads to Iranian origins.
Attention, I don't know if the R1b-L2 modal  haplotype is near the Ossetian modal, but it doesn't matter because there is no R1b-L2 in Ossetians , nor U152 its father, nor P312 its greatfather, nor its ancestors L11,L51,L150 and not frequent L23 or M269.
Ossetian are mainly G2a1a
The wikipedia item is written by Ray Banks like every items concerning haplogroup G.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a1_(Y-DNA)
32% is the frequency given by thit item, it is very  too low, the majority of studies give  the G2a1-P16 and G2a1a-P18  frequencies are more between 50 to 80% according to the regions.

in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus the most confident study for North Ossetians is Balanowsky et al-2010

Iron n=230 E1b1b 0,4% G2a1-P16 73% (overall G2a1a-P18) G2a3b1-P303 1,3% J1 1,3% J2a4b-M67 11,3% J2xJ2a4b 7% L2 0,9% R1a 0,4% R1b 3% N 0,4% Q 0,9%

Digor n=127 E1b1b 0,8%  G2a1-P16 55,9% (overall G2a1a-P18) G2a3b1-P303 4,7% J1 3,9% J2a4b-M67 5,5% J2xJ2a4b 6,3% L1 0,8% R1a 0,8% R1b 16,5% T 0,8% Q 3,9%

Digor  G2a3b1-P303 4,7%  come from the third of their neighbours Kabards with this haplogroup.
G2a1a-P18: 12% Abkhazes 9,2% Tcherkesses 1,4 to 6% Ingouches/Tchechenes 1,2% Lezgins du Daghestan.
Notice that "Many of the early members of the Terek Cossacks were Ossetians." they are 54% G (n=86), no approaching frequency in other Cossaks, even for Kouban Cossaks (mainly R1a).

For Yagnobis and Tadjiks, There is study by Spencer Wells and al-2001, unfortunaly already old and not enough samples :

Tadjiks n=38 C 3% J 18,4% R1A 44,7% R1b 0% R2 7,9% L 8% H 5% E 3%
Yagnobis n=31 C 3% J 32% K 3% P 3% R1a 16% R*/R1b 32% L 10% R*/R1b is probably R2 in the great majority, plus some R1b-P73 and maybe some R1b-M269*
For North and South Afghanistan:
http://dienekes.blogspot.fr/2012/04/another-look-at-y-chromosomes-of.html
Afghanistan by ethnies
http://dienekes.blogspot.fr/2012/03/rare-look-at-y-chromosomes-of.html

Origin C Turkish-Mongol J and G  neolithic founders of BMAC coming from Iran R2 and first part of R1a:  indigenous mesolithics, second part: Aryan R1a coming from Kazakhstan/Volga  third part back migration of first paleolithic waves from North to South and India of R1a fleeing the LGM glacial colds long time before Aryans. The R1a  and R2 of the back migration were Harrapans like L from South Pakistan and H from central and southern India. E were Iranians (neolithic persian empires) or later Moslem Arabs.

Prior to Aryans,early bronze cultures had been BMAC
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMAC
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 12:58:10 PM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 02:19:43 PM »

I know that. i just wasn't sure how far the neolithic farmers stretched. Did they make it northern  or western Kazakhstan?

Where is R1b-M73 coming from?

mtdna U4 /u5? turkic admixture? finno ugric (ether later or in indo iranians)?

What of R1a-m458/z280/z283 in central asia?

Or ydna I in central asia? it is i2b1.

I  exists in iranians too like north ones . I1 and I2. Where is that coming from?

Were there tripoyle settlments or northeast european hunter gathrer settlmens in central asia prior to aryans?



could turks be inflating northern european components?


also tajiks have ssanid persian (iranian pleteau ) admixture to some degree.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 02:20:13 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 08:42:45 AM »

As I said before, there are a lot of people on here that are much more knowledgeable about this subject than I.

That being said I can point out that one of my closest matchs on a general search on ysearch is:     FEPAF       Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a   Unknown    Unknown    Other    51   6

Considering that this is not a complete profile and the quirkiness of R1b y-DNA, comparing my R-L2 to other R- L2's in the search is probably a much more accurate comparison.

The other reference I was looking is actually not a reference at all but a Diekenes test, a measurement of the cranial (and other) features.   This test proves nothing but it puts me squarely within the Mediterranean profile.  The European profile was way off.  I tilted it!  The analysis most closely compares to the Lak people of Ossetia.  
Cheers!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 08:50:58 AM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2012, 01:16:14 AM »

Where is the ydna E in Iran and Tajikistan from? Semitic ancestry? I read somewhere Central Asia was settled by Iranians but did tha include all ethnicities of the Persian empires(ie Armenians, Assyrians) or just the Indo-Iranian ones?

I read E is Neolithic in Iran and in persians and Tajikistan was settled by Persians.
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