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Author Topic: Post your model for the early spread of R1b across Europe  (Read 7532 times)
Heber
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2012, 04:08:46 AM »

Alan,

Thank you for posting this thread. Here is my opinion of the migration of M269 to M222.

M269. Anatolian Neolithic. In my opinion, the first wave of M269 came From the "Womb of Nations", out of Anatolia. M269 would have been aware of Gobelki Tepe, Nevali Cori and Catal Huyak and other great archealogy sites of Anatolia. The ancestor of M269 could have come from further north in the Cascusas. The first wave was by sea and settled the farming communities in Crete and the Greek Islands and later Cyprus. Later waves would have moved up the Danube as far as the Iron Gates.
L23. Balkens Neolithic. This appears to be a Balkans, Thessaly and Greece migration. Could they have later founded Troy and the Mineoan civilisations. I am always impressed by the similarity of Minoan and Mycean  Bull statues and later Celtic and Iberian representations of the same. This could have been the dividing point between the Maritine and Danube river migrations.
L51. Rivers Neolithic. This is found in large concentrations in Northern Italy Po Valley, The Rhone valley, Loire Valley, Tagus Valley, Garonne and Erne River Valley in Ireland. Route of the Stelae People from the Danube. I begin to see major nodes of communication, both maritime and river, emerge such as the the above as well as Morbihan and Tartessus.
L11. Atlantic Megalithic. This is associated with the Atlantic Megalithic centred around the hubs of Tartessos, Tagus, Galicia, Morbihan, Stonehenge and Boyne Valley. There appears to be continuity between the Megalithic and later Copper, Bronze and Iron Ages.
P312. Copper Age. This is the Bell Beaker Culture, meeting with the Stelae people culture, originating in Tagus, Rio Tinto, Huevla, Los Millares and ascending the great rivers of Europe via the already established hubs of Morbihan and reaching the centre of Europe and contacts with U106 in Germany and their ancestors who took the Danube route.
L21. Bronze Age. Probably born in Iberia, Tartessos or Morbihan in France,  this Celtic marker used the existing river networks to interact with U152 in Alpine Europe and migrated to the Isles.
DF23. Iron Age. This is the North South cluster and represents the trading networks between Iberia and the Isles.
M222. Historic Period. We begin to enter the historic period with the signature of Niall of the Nine Hostages, who gave Way to the Clans of Ireland, O Neill, McDonnell....,  and the Dal Riadian Clans of Scotland.

https://www.box.com/shared/b3ff9f377700af24ddce

http://db.tt/uk2FOrMx

Edit: Added map Celtic Migrations Map and Age Labels.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 05:32:25 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Maliclavelli
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2012, 04:37:15 AM »

The haplotype of JQ704207 seems rarer, but there is also an English, probably belonging to this haplogroup, on SMGF:

        1 gatcacaggt ctatcaccct attaaccact cacgggagct ctccatgcat ttggtatttt
       61 cgtctggggg gtgtgcacgc gatagcattg cgagacgctg gagccggagc accTtatgtc
      121 gcagtatctg tctttgattc ctgccCcatc ctattattta tcgcacctac gttcaatatt

Lilian Ottaway, 1884, Woking, Surrey, England:

16184A 16224C 16311C 16519C 73G 114T 146C 263G 315.1C 497T

But probably Behar et al. were unlucky, because this haplotype is probably derived from a previous one without the back mutation in 146, then with 146T (or with a new mutation from C to T)

16184A 16224C 16311C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

Even though it is difficult to think to all these back muations, the transversion in 16184 seems very rare and happened before.

There are on SMGF 3 people : 2 Australians of British descend (Quirk) and a Pole, Wolf, of German descend, and we find this haplotype also in the core of the Bell Beaker. Difficult to say by which path.

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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2012, 04:56:43 AM »

And certainly this K1a with back mutations in 73 and 263 is noteworthy:

Mary Cain, 1830 County Mayo, Ireland:

16093Y 16224C 16311C 16519C 315.1C 497T   

And also Mary Susan Bailey, 1891, Sanford, Colorado, USA :

16224C 16311C 16519C 315.1C 497T   
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Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2012, 05:00:59 AM »


Rich R
I am not in any way committed to any model and i put my spin on the beaker model out there simply because it allows others to pick holes in it and find the weaknesses in it which saves me a lot of work!  To be honest I would be perfectly happy with a Danube model too or a mixed one.  The main issue that is still a bit of a leap of faith is how L11 got from 'L23 land'.  That still is a jump and the evidence to date is fairly subtle, certainly not a handy blazing trail of a full culture leading from L23 land to the west.   I really like your L51 map.  It does look uncannily like some sort of arrival in the SE France/NW Italy area followed by dispersal towards well known beaker nodes like Portugal, Holland, NW France, eastwards too. I just suspect that the L51* map is a handy echo of some early dispersal that probably was predominantly L11 and subclades but was early enough to still have a number of L51* folk among them.  Its also interesting where they concentrated.  Could be pure chance but could indicate that in the areas where L51* is higher that it was either pre-L11* or that L11's dominance in the group had not been established.  Even though it may be a paragroup, I do think your map is significant and there is no question that it has picked up a rather distinct pattern.  
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 05:08:24 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2012, 05:19:44 AM »

See Mitosearch PESXC and also Z9F22, 4CDDS, 85ABU.

JG Weston says: “Lilian Ethel Ottoway was my grand mother, she may have been adopted”.

And of course the most interesting is 85ABU:
First Name: Pedro
Last Name: Ramiro
Year Born: About 1500
Year Died:
Country of Origin: Santa Cruz de la Salceda, Burgos, Spain

And what to think of 4CDDS?

Haplogroup:   K
Tested with:   Family Tree DNA
Contact person:   William T (Bill) Pool     Contact this user

Most distant known maternal ancestor on the direct female line
First Name:   Anne
Last Name:   Beddingfield
Year Born:   About 1855
Year Died:   
Country of Origin:   Hawkinsville ?, GA, Germany
Latitude:   33 deg 7 min N
Longitude:   84 deg 4 min W


Additional information about Maternal Line:
mother of Anne Beddingfield was a Davis, first name and date of birth unknown


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Maliclavelli


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Jean M
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« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2012, 05:22:07 AM »

Alan, while I slightly favor the Mediterranean route slightly over the Danube route, if I was scoring points based on aDNA, I would have the first few rounds all going to the Danube theory.

Why see the Mediterranean and Danube routes as alternative theories? Both routes that I propose for Pre-Proto-Italic-Celtic went up the Danube as far as the Carpathian Basin. Then they split. http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/StelaePeople.jpg

I do not propose, and never have proposed, a completely separate route by sea directly out of the Black Sea to the Mediterranean for the Stelae People, even when I did not realise that stelae had been found in the Carpathian Basin. The people at the destinations of both routes were speaking descendants of the same language (or dialect of PIE) by the time they start writing things down. They had to be together for long enough to develop that dialect before they split. Plus the contact point for western and eastern BB is in the Carpathian Basin, plus BB people were later using the route via Cetina.

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Humanist
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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2012, 05:27:03 AM »

Thank you for posting this thread. Here is my opinion of the migration of M269 to M222.

L23. This appears to be a Balkans, Thessaly and Greece migration. Could they have later founded Troy and the Mineoan civilisations. I am always impressed by the similarity of Minoan Bull statues and later Celtic representations of the same. This could have been the dividing point between the Maritine and Danube river migrations.

Hello, Heber.  I know your post was a reply to Alan, so, I hope you do not mind me sharing an opinion.

R-L23 in the Balkans is a possibility.  That I do not argue.  However, there is some data one must reconcile, in order to make it a more plausible scenario. 

The autosomal argument against 

The "North European" component from Dodecad K12b is found (if at all observed), at extremely low levels among populations with high frequencies of R-L23 (for the Near East), and relatively high STR diversity*.  For instance, in the Druze, it is 0.9%.  In Assyrians, it is also 0.9%.  Some Assyrians, such as myself, have 0.0% of the "North European" component (see DOD134).   I am also a "Nestorian."  The "Nestorians" appear to have the highest frequency of R-L23, of the different Assyrian groups (30%-40%).  Nestorians also appear to have the most abundant levels of the "Gedrosia" component.  The "North European" component in Armenians stands at 3%. 

The Y-DNA argument against

I1 and I2 are observed at 0% in Druze, 0% in Assyrians, and ~1% in Syrian Alawites.  In Armenians Y-DNA I is observed with modest frequency (5%), and limited mostly to I2c, but also a bit of I2a2a3, I2a2a, and I2a1b1.

R1a1 is observed at very low frequencies in Assyrians (2%), Druze (1%), and Syrian Alawites (~5%).  In Armenians, apart from some locations in E Armenia, it is also very low (average is 3%).

* Many of the men whose haplotypes are listed below are from the "Nestorian" church.  The smallest of the three principal Assyrian churches (the other two being the Syriac Orthodox Church, and the Chaldean Catholic Church).  The Levantine peoples, the Alawites, and especially the Druze, possess haplotypes that bear a stronger resemblance to those observed in Europe, and in particular, the AMH.

N Mesopotamian haplotypes

Code:
N=6 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
N=1 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28
N=1 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
N=1 12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
N=1 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
N=1 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
N=1 12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26
N=1 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27
N=1 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28
N=1 12 25 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29
N=1 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
N=1 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30
N=1 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 05:30:06 AM by Humanist » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2012, 05:46:43 AM »

Humanist, where there is in Middle East R1b1 with YCA=18-22 and 18-23, the Mangino (Mancini) haplotype intermediate between R1b1 and R-M269, R-M269 with YCAII=17-23, R-L23 with L150-,
R-L51 (practically zero!) etc.?

If there are some haplotypes like the Western European ones, it does mean only that they came from Europe, like your mtDNA HV4.
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Maliclavelli


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Humanist
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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2012, 06:37:36 AM »

If there are some haplotypes like the Western European ones, it does mean only that they came from Europe, like your mtDNA HV4.

The Carballa et al. paper did suggest HV4 originated in E Europe, that is true.  And, based on the available data, I would conclude the same.  However, they have not sampled my population.  And several other minority groups from the Middle East (e.g. Iraqi Mandaeans).  Taking R-M269 as an example, one can see how conclusions regarding the origins of a haplogroup may be erroneous, due to insufficient sampling.  Furthermore, even if it did expand from E Europe, HV4a2 is estimated to to be 9.3 k years old.

HV4 in Assyrians (N=64)
HV4a2a
HV4a2a
HV4 (23andMe)
HV4b

At the end of the day, if HV4 originated in E Europe, ~14 k years ago, that is fine.  I can count, among my ancestors, a European woman.  I have no problem with that, since, as I have stated many times previously, I consider Europeans and West Asians to exist along the same relatively recent genetic continuum.  It is only people who, for whatever reason, have it in their mind that some imaginary, and significant difference exists, that have problems accepting this, and go out of their way to disprove a connection between the two.

Anyway, this thread is not about HV4.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2012, 07:06:15 AM »

Humanist you are right, I agree with you, but, as you like to valorize your country, I think having the right to do it with mine. Think which were the ideas about Italy only a few years ago, and that now many speak of an Italian corridor for R1b is already something. But my thinking is that now they will hear the the best bit.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2012, 08:02:47 AM »

I'm not sure it is possible to use mtDNA frequency patterns and mtDNA aDNA evidence to make sense of the migratory path of a y haplogroup. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of Kromsdorf, the mtDNA recovered there mostly indicates that Beaker males were eclectic in their choice of women, and collected them from various sources.

I will be the first to admit, however, that I don't keep up with mtDNA stuff much. I hardly have time to keep up with y-dna stuff!
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2012, 08:11:02 AM »

I'm not sure it is possible to use mtDNA frequency patterns and mtDNA aDNA evidence to make sense of the migratory path of a y haplogroup. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of Kromsdorf, the mtDNA recovered there mostly indicates that Beaker males were eclectic in their choice of women, and collected them from various sources.

I will be the first to admit, however, that I don't keep up with mtDNA stuff much. I hardly have time to keep up with y-dna stuff!

Yes, of course every haplogroup must be demonstrated per se, but, since we haven’t yet the aDNA of other places in Europe and more ancient, I tried to investigate the linked mtDNA. We shall see if I am right or wrong.
But these are:

Other two haplotypes linked probably with these ones:

16184A 16224C 16311C 16362C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

16092C 16184A 16224C 16311C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

All from the Isles.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 08:13:39 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2012, 08:28:39 AM »

I'm not sure it is possible to use mtDNA frequency patterns and mtDNA aDNA evidence to make sense of the migratory path of a y haplogroup. Correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of Kromsdorf, the mtDNA recovered there mostly indicates that Beaker males were eclectic in their choice of women, and collected them from various sources.

I will be the first to admit, however, that I don't keep up with mtDNA stuff much. I hardly have time to keep up with y-dna stuff!

Yes, of course every haplogroup must be demonstrated per se, but, since we haven’t yet the aDNA of other places in Europe and more ancient, I tried to investigate the linked mtDNA. We shall see if I am right or wrong.
But these are:

Other two haplotypes linked probably with these ones:

16184A 16224C 16311C 16362C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

16092C 16184A 16224C 16311C 16519C 73G 114T 263G 315.1C 497T

All from the Isles.



So, let me try to understand. You are saying those two haplotypes were found at Kromsdorf circa 2500 B.C. and that they match some modern British Isles people?

Is that right?

If so, are you saying the modern people in this case descend from women who lived in Kromsdorf around 2500 B.C.?

Pardon me if I am totally missing the point. I didn't pay much attention to the specific mtDNA haplotypes in the Kromsdorf paper.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2012, 08:37:17 AM »

Rich, I have posted many contributes about the Kromsdorf haplotypes and I think having demonstrated that they are linked above all with Portugal, then Bell Beaker etc.

These haplotypes I think descend from my K1a1b1e which I think is born in Italy: see the last contribute about this of Behar et al. 2012b.

These haplotypes I have posted now on this thread and on another about K1a1b1e I think demonstrate what is for me the path: from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago with the first agriculturalists who colonized Iberia by sea. I have found one of these haplotypes also in the Basque country beyond the Isles and also one in Germany. This is my hypothesis, but of course all these haplotypes should be tested for the coding region, but they have some rare mutations that I think they are linked: see 477C and 16184A (a transversion, very rare, probably unique in the mt database).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 08:39:36 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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whoknows
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2012, 08:41:20 AM »

Maliclavelli

Thank you for taking  the time to reply to my post,  I shall continue to read your contributions, and those of others, with an open mind and great interest. It is vital that we have divergent views on the subject, otherwise discussion simply degenerates into  a sort of monolithic conformity.
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rms2
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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2012, 08:52:53 AM »

Rich, I have posted many contributes about the Kromsdorf haplotypes and I think having demonstrated that they are linked above all with Portugal, then Bell Beaker etc.

These haplotypes I think descend from my K1a1b1e which I think is born in Italy: see the last contribute about this of Behar et al. 2012b.

These haplotypes I have posted now on this thread and on another about K1a1b1e I think demonstrate what is for me the path: from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago with the first agriculturalists who colonized Iberia by sea. I have found one of these haplotypes also in the Basque country beyond the Isles and also one in Germany. This is my hypothesis, but of course all these haplotypes should be tested for the coding region, but they have some rare mutations that I think they are linked: see 477C and 16184A (a transversion, very rare, probably unique in the mt database).

Sorry for my misunderstanding, Gioiello. I don't follow mtDNA posts much. That's not your fault; it's mine.

When I see those mtDNA haplotypes, my eyes start to glaze over.

I love my mother and grandmother, and all that, but mtDNA just doesn't do much for me. (Of course, I realize it's important.)
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Humanist
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« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2012, 09:35:25 AM »

Humanist you are right, I agree with you, but, as you like to valorize your country, I think having the right to do it with mine. Think which were the ideas about Italy only a few years ago, and that now many speak of an Italian corridor for R1b is already something. But my thinking is that now they will hear the the best bit.

Maliclavelli, that is fine.  I have nothing but love for Italians.  I almost married one.  :)

However, I am not saying R-L23 is from N Mesopotamia.  But, I do believe West Asia in general, and Cilicia, N Syria, and the central and western parts of what is today Turkey in particular played an integral part in the spread of R-L23 to points west.  I say that because of the following data, and other evidence, thus far accumulated, in the genetic record:

Atlantic Modal Haplotype
13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29

Druze R1b modal and secondary haplotype (Shlush et al.)
13-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29
12-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29

Alawite R1b modal and secondary haplotype (Dönbak et al.)
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-14-13-30
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-13-13-29

Assyrian R1b modal haplotype (FTDNA)
13-24-14-10-11-14-12-12-12-14-13-30


I believe Italy and Sicily are an important piece to the puzzle.  As Peter H noted himself, a couple of years ago, in this private correspondence between he and I, "Besides Assyrians, the people who time and time again are closest to Armenians in all haplogroup branches are Italians from Sicily or Calabria."

For at least Assyrians, I would add two additional groups.  Iberians, and men of the British Isles.   This extends beyond R-M269, and includes (among other lines), for instance, G1*, J1* and, T-PS21.
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« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2012, 05:23:57 PM »

... I have nothing but love for Italians.  I almost married one.  :)...
I did.  Well, about 1/4 Italian, 1/4 Greek/Venetian, 1/4 Spanish, 1/4 Native American. It's great.
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Humanist
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« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2012, 06:36:01 PM »

... I have nothing but love for Italians.  I almost married one.  :)...
I did.  Well, about 1/4 Italian, 1/4 Greek/Venetian, 1/4 Spanish, 1/4 Native American. It's great.

Nice to see you around, Mike.  Too bad DNA-Forums is gone.  I know you had done a lot of work in the R section.   I always took your for an open-minded fella (you were one of the very few who took any interest in my posts), so, I am glad you are continuing your work on another forum.   :)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 06:36:21 PM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2012, 07:13:53 PM »

However, I am not saying R-L23 is from N Mesopotamia.  But, I do believe West Asia in general, and Cilicia, N Syria, and the central and western parts of what is today Turkey in particular played an integral part in the spread of R-L23 to points west.  I say that because of the following data, and other evidence, thus far accumulated, in the genetic record:

Atlantic Modal Haplotype
13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29

Druze R1b modal and secondary haplotype (Shlush et al.)
13-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29
12-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29

Alawite R1b modal and secondary haplotype (Dönbak et al.)
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-14-13-30
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-13-13-29

Assyrian R1b modal haplotype (FTDNA)
13-24-14-10-11-14-12-12-12-14-13-30

On the subject of the Druze, Andrew Oh-Willeke, on Dienekes' blog, wrote:

Quote
The multiple clusters of Druze is even more interesting because the Druze aren't nearly so geographically diverse, although this not too surprising because the Druze are unique genetically in many other respects (e.g. they are the only population with significant percentages of mtDNA hg X1, X2 and X* in the same population, strongly indicating a strong affinity with the source population for mtDNA hg X) and known to have a far amount of community specific substructure.

Quote
A 2008 paper calls them a refugium, but from whom and from where? Their mix of mtDNA X1, X2 and X* screams that this ethnicity has been distinctive since the Upper Paleolithic, not just for the last thousand years. What happened to the groups genetically intermediate between them and other Near Eastern populations?
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« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2012, 08:14:33 PM »

Some of what I was referring to, in the posts above, regarding links (from another forum):

Quote
Two, of the very few "best" matches I have, are with men tracing their ancestry to Wales and England. I am a rare type of G1 (w/DYS494=8).
 

Quote
One of the haplotypes from our principal R-M269 Assyrian cluster is particularly "matchy" with men from the British Isles. At 25 markers, with a GD less than or equal to 2, these surnames are the most frequently observed, among the men of presumed British ancestry (there are 300+ in the FTDNA database for this specific Assyrian haplotype):

Davenport   6%   

Doty   15%   
Doughty   2%   
Dowty   1%   
----------------
18%

Elliot   6%   

Franklin   5%   

Harris   2%   

I have no knowledge of British surnames, so, please, anyone with further details or corrections, feel free to chime in.

The Davenport name immediately caught my eye, since there are also Davenport men among the extremely small number of J1* cases observed in northern Europe, in the FTDNA database (< 20). The J1* northern Europeans are removed by a few thousand years, from men of Armenian, Assyrian, etc. extraction.

Quote
An Assyrian J2a3b (M67) haplotype, based on the haplotypes in the Ysearch database, has the following "nearest" matches (2 steps) at 12 markers. Although the majority of Ysearch samples are from European men, there are a decent number of non-European haplotypes in the database.

1.Scotland
2.Portuguese?
3.Spaniard?
4.England
5.France
6.Anglo-American

Quote
One of Marko's older tree updates. Note the relationship between the Assyrian representative of our principal Y-DNA T line, and the Colonial American cluster. The date given is [roughly] 3700 ybp. The man with kit # 127673 is Puerto Rican.

Bonnie Schrack, J FTDNA Project admin:
Quote
In the 1K Genomes data, there was one Colombian in J1* the last time around, HG01494, and from just that one sample, we got all of those Z18... SNPs that have been so helpful.  Now, there are two more of them, though one of  them has very poor coverage.  And they are both Colombian!
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2012, 11:52:10 PM »

I have no time now to answer your interesting posts, also that on the R1b haplotypes, they too close to those of my Tuscan relatives, but I have posted here and in a thread of the mtDNA section the “demonstration” of the link of my mtDNA K1a1b1e with the Isles, Ireland and Scotland. Someone says that the mtDNA doesn’t demonstrate the link of the Y, but we are now arriving to discriminate the haplotypes by a single SNP and to demonstrate the link is easier.
Re: your G1* I have said to you many times in the past that you found links with Italy and before and after Ötzi’s G2a4 (or G2a2), which is clearly Italian from very ancient times, I have said that we have no proofs that this haplogroup is Caucasian in spite of its highest frequency there, because probably it was linked with the obsidian commerce and with the 15,000 years ago sailors of the Aegean Sea and the Italian Islands.

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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Heber
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« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2012, 02:00:01 AM »

Thank you for posting this thread. Here is my opinion of the migration of M269 to M222.

L23. This appears to be a Balkans, Thessaly and Greece migration. Could they have later founded Troy and the Mineoan civilisations. I am always impressed by the similarity of Minoan Bull statues and later Celtic representations of the same. This could have been the dividing point between the Maritine and Danube river migrations.

Hello, Heber.  I know your post was a reply to Alan, so, I hope you do not mind me sharing an opinion.

R-L23 in the Balkans is a possibility.  That I do not argue.  However, there is some data one must reconcile, in order to make it a more plausible scenario. 

The autosomal argument against 

The "North European" component from Dodecad K12b is found (if at all observed), at extremely low levels among populations with high frequencies of R-L23 (for the Near East), and relatively high STR diversity*.  For instance, in the Druze, it is 0.9%.  In Assyrians, it is also 0.9%.  Some Assyrians, such as myself, have 0.0% of the "North European" component (see DOD134).   I am also a "Nestorian."  The "Nestorians" appear to have the highest frequency of R-L23, of the different Assyrian groups (30%-40%).  Nestorians also appear to have the most abundant levels of the "Gedrosia" component.  The "North European" component in Armenians stands at 3%. 

The Y-DNA argument against

I1 and I2 are observed at 0% in Druze, 0% in Assyrians, and ~1% in Syrian Alawites.  In Armenians Y-DNA I is observed with modest frequency (5%), and limited mostly to I2c, but also a bit of I2a2a3, I2a2a, and I2a1b1.

R1a1 is observed at very low frequencies in Assyrians (2%), Druze (1%), and Syrian Alawites (~5%).  In Armenians, apart from some locations in E Armenia, it is also very low (average is 3%).




Humanist,
My analysis is only looking at the westward migration from M269 to M222. I have not looked closely at an Eastern or Southern migration although I believe L23* is found Further north in the Caucasus an further east as far as Pakistan.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Maliclavelli
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« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2012, 04:21:36 AM »

I am seeing now that a sample with 16184A has been tested by Behar et al. and assigned to K1a1b1, then it hasn’t the mutation of K1a1b1e:

SAMPLE ID: JQ702781
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: C114T; T1717g; T14674Y; T16092C; C16184a;
Topologically Missing:
Country: Germany
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:

It is interesting that these sample are above all European and are also the ancestors of K1a1b1a.

A similar haplotype is probably FTDNA 118362, Helen Pursel, 1843-1910, USA.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 04:54:40 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2012, 04:34:24 AM »

But why these haplotypes are maintained K1a1b1 with these mutations like 16184A and also 114T so diffused? Probably they too should be assigned to a subclade of K1a1b1.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 04:56:40 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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