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Author Topic: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA  (Read 29188 times)
Richard Rocca
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« on: May 03, 2012, 08:38:45 AM »

Hot off the presses:

Lee et al. (2012)
Emerging Genetic Patterns of the European Neolithic: Perspectives From a Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Burial Site in Germany


Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals,
which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

More to come when I read the whole thing.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 08:38:59 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 08:41:17 AM »

They also tested for U106 (S21), but both M269 samples were ancestral (negative).
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Arwunbee
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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 09:03:52 AM »

They also tested for U106 (S21), but both M269 samples were ancestral (negative).
For one they weren't able to determine M269 status
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Map of L44 subclade (of U106): http://g.co/maps/9xswy
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 09:08:38 AM »

The mt K1, which is also mine, with the mutations 16093C 16224C 16311C 16319A 73G 152C 195C 263G seems a K1b1a2. The two samples in Behar 2012b

EU714300 and EF177415 seem to belong both to Portuguese.

This would confirm the origin of Bell Beaker culture from Iberia.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 09:12:23 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

JeanL
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 09:17:33 AM »

From the paper:

Quote from: Lee et al.2012

In addition to mtDNA analyses, individuals were subjected to Y-SNP analysis, of which four were osteologically determined as males. Extracts from two male individuals, graves 5 and 8, yielded positive results for Y haplogroup classification. A consensus haplotype was determined from SNPs that were detected from both specimens (Table 3). Both males belong to Y haplogroup R1b, and one (grave 5) was further refined to haplogroup R1b1b2 by the mutation at M269. The SNP M269 failed to amplify for the extract from grave 8, thus it is not possible to infer whether or not the two individuals shared the same paternal lineage.

So it looks two males did not yield any haplogroup. The other male tested for R1b(xM269), while the other male tested for R1b1b2 or R1b-M269. I don't think they did any R-U106 testing, while the primer is shown on the supplementary file, they say nothing about it in the main text. It would be interesting to know whether that R1b-M269 is R1b-L11, or R1b-P312, or what else. Also very intriguing the lack of mt-DNA H is sample.  A high presence of mt-DNA Haplogroup I was found in ancient Nordic samples if I recall correctly.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 09:18:00 AM »

From Ian Logan spreadsheet

K1b1a1 16463
 4. EF177415(Portugal) Pereira             K1b1a1     18-DEC-2006    A73G T152C T195C A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G        T1189C A1438G A1811G T2023C A2706G A3480G        A4769G                       G5913A C7028T T8260C A8860G G9055A C9371T T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A                         C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G C15381T C15946T T16093C         T16224C T16311C A16318T G16319A A16463G T16519C
 5. EU239477 FTDNA                         K1b1a1     30-OCT-2007    A73G T152C       A263G 309.1C        315.1C A750G        T1189C A1438G A1811G        A2706G A3480G G3834A A4769G A4775G A5298G         G5913A C7028T        A8860G G9055A        T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A T13020G         C13967T C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G         C15946T                 T16224C T16311C         G16319A A16463G T16519C
 6. EU714300 FTDNA                         K1b1a1     20-MAY-2008    A73G T152C T195C A263G 309.1C        315.1C A750G        T1189C A1438G A1811G        A2706G A3480G        A4769G               5899.1C G5913A C7028T T8260C A8860G G9055A C9371T T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A                         C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G C15381T C15946T T16093C         T16224C T16311C A16318T G16319A A16463G T16519C
 7. GU361772 FTDNA                         K1b1a1     10-JAN-2010    A73G T152C       A263G               315.1C A750G        T1189C A1438G A1811G        A2706G A3480G G3834A A4769G A4775G                G5913A C7028T        A8860G G9055A        T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A                 C13967T C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G         C15946T         G16129A T16224C T16311C         G16319A A16463G T16519C
 8. GU797785 FTDNA                         K1b1a1     22-FEB-2010    A73G T152C       A263G 309.1C        315.1C A750G A1041G T1189C A1438G A1811G        A2706G A3480G        A4769G                       G5913A C7028T        A8860G G9055A        T9698C G9962A A10289G A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A11923G A12308G G12372A         T13602C C13967T C14167T C14766T T14798C G15257A A15326G         C15946T T16093C         T16224C T16311C         G16319A A16463G T16519C

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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2012, 09:19:41 AM »

No STRS in this study.  They did test for U106 but both R1b samples were negative for it.  P312/S116 wasn't tested...

Grave 5: ydna R1b1b2 U106-, mtdna I1, 35-50yo, no grave goods, bone age n.d.
Grave 8: ydna R1b^, mtdna K1, 21-26yo, cup & flake grave goods, bones 2678-2547 BC  

^unable to obtain M269 result

Only three of the bodies had a radiocarbon age, latest given was 2511 BC.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 09:20:30 AM by Arwunbee » Logged

Map of L44 subclade (of U106): http://g.co/maps/9xswy
NealtheRed
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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2012, 10:08:55 AM »

Hot off the presses:

Lee et al. (2012)
Emerging Genetic Patterns of the European Neolithic: Perspectives From a Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Burial Site in Germany


Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals,
which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

More to come when I read the whole thing.

Wow! Great stuff! I am very happy to see something concrete.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Heber
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« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 11:21:21 AM »

This appears to confirm that Bell Beakers were R1b. It is part of the growing book of evidence of a Bell Beaker, Celtic story.

"The transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture in Europe is associated with demographic changes that may have shifted the human gene pool of the region as a result of an influx of Neolithic farmers from the Near East. However, the genetic composition of populations after the earliest Neolithic, when a diverse mosaic of societies that had been fully engaged in agriculture for some time appeared in central Europe, is poorly known. At this period during the Late Neolithic (ca. 2,800–2,000 BC), regionally distinctive burial patterns associated with two different cultural groups emerge, Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, and may reflect differences in how these societies were organized. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b. In contrast to other Late Neolithic societies in Europe emphasizing maintenance of biological relatedness in mortuary contexts, the diversity of maternal haplotypes evident at Kromsdorf suggests that burial practices of Bell Beaker communities operated outside of social norms based on shared maternal lineages. Furthermore, our data, along with those from previous studies, indicate that modern U5-lineages may have received little, if any, contribution from the Mesolithic or Neolithic mitochondrial gene pool. Am J Phys Anthropol 2012. "
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 11:53:42 AM »

If someone has some doubt about the origin of W5
16223T 16292T 16362C 73G 189G 194T 195C 204C 207A 263G
and 7028T 12705T 14766T 14798T
 look at here:

W5 6528 15775
103. EU744586 FTDNA                        W5         03-JUN-2008    57.1C 60.1T T65- G71- A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 315.1C T334C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A T9909C C11674T G11696A G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C C16223T C16292T T16519C   
              W5a 10097 16362
104. EF657509 mtDNA35(Europe) Herrnstadt   W5a        14-JUL-2007                                                                             G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G        A3505G        A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G         G10373A C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T         C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C A15924G
105. GU726895 FTDNA                        W5a        22-FEB-2010    A73G C150T A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G        315.1C             G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G G3337A A3505G        A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10166C         C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T         C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
106. GU817015(German) FTDNA                W5a        03-MAR-2010    A73G C150T A189G       T195C T204C G207A A263G        315.1C             G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G        A3505G        A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G                 C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T         C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
107. JF419335(Irish) FTDNA                 W5a        05-MAR-2011    A73G C150T A189G       T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C C522- A523- G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G        A3505G T3644C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G                 C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C13044T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C         A16177R C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
                W5a1 10410
108. EF657689 mtDNA511(Europe) Herrnstadt  W5a1       14-JUL-2007                                                                 G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G C3963T A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A        A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C A11641G C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C
109. JN583886(Eire) FTDNA                  W5a1       23-AUG-2011    A73G A189G C194T T195C T196C T204C G207A A263G 315.1C 573.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2356G A2706G A3505G A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A G8292A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C         C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C C16150T C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
                  W5a1a 4363
110. EF652811(England) FTDNA               W5a1a      17-JUN-2007    A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C         T16124C C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C   
111. GU646872(Irish) FTDNA                 W5a1a      22-FEB-2010    A73G A189G C194T T195C       G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
112. JF436973(Flemish) FTDNA               W5a1a      20-MAR-2011    A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C T16093C         C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
                    W5a1a1 9275
113. EU135972 FTDNA                        W5a1a1     12-SEP-2007    A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C        315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A        A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C T10742C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C G16129A T16189C C16223T C16292T         T16362C T16519C   
114. HM125971(German) FTDNA                W5a1a1     04-MAY-2010    A73G A189G C194T T195M T204C G207A A263G               315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A G8572A A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C         C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T T16311C T16362C T16519C
115. JF431251(England)FTDNA                W5a1a1     20-MAR-2011    A73G A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C        315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A        A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C         C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C                 C16223T C16292T         T16362C T16519C
                      W5a1a1a 57 60.1T 139
116. GU828018(England) FTDNA               W5a1a1a    03-MAR-2010    T57C T59C 60.1T A73G T139C A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C        315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
(Equivalent mutations as given by FTDNA                              56.1C T58C      A73G etc.)
117. HM057816 FTDNA                        W5a1a1a    13-APR-2010    T57C      60.1T A73G T139C A189G C194T T195C T204C G207A A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C G709A A750G T1243C A1438G A2706G A3505G T4363C A4769G G5046A G5460A C6528T C7028T G8251A A8860G G8994A A9275G A10097G T10410C C11674T G11719A A11947G T12414C C12705T C14766T A15326G A15775G G15884C C16223T C16292T T16362C T16519C
(Equivalent mutations as given by FTDNA                              56.1C           A73G etc.)
           

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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

A_Wode
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 12:01:45 PM »

Is the other male xM269 in reality, or is this just decay on the sample? Any experts on this topic?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 12:36:09 PM »

Haplogroup I1 is actually I1a1:
16129A 16172C 16223T 16311C 16391A 73G 199C 203A 204C 250C 263G
plus 7028T 8251A 12705T 14766T

On Behar 2012b the two reference FGS are FJ460452 from Tunisia and EF177414 from Portugal. Then also this haplogroup, thought from Asia, is probably more recently from Portugal.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 12:40:27 PM »

Is the other male xM269 in reality, or is this just decay on the sample? Any experts on this topic?
It is certainly R1b, tested M343+. The other SNPs failed, and it could be any subclades.
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2012, 12:54:27 PM »

Look at where are living now all the descendants of this person:

I1a1a 455.1d! 9053
 25. AY339502(Finland) Moilanen            I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C 315.1C G322A 573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G        C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 26. AY339503.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 27. AY339504.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G       C309-                     573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 28. AY339505(Finland) Moilanen            I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G C5213T G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 29. AY339506.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G                                 573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G        A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G C15547T A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 30. AY339507.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G C295T       309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G C1342T A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 31. AY339508.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G C1342T A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A        G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
 32. AY339509.2(Finland) Moilanen          I1a1  10-OCT-2007    A73G T199C G203A T204C T250C A263G             309.1C              573.1C 573.2C 573.3C 573.4C A750G C1342T A1438G G1719A A2706G A3447G C3990T A4529T A4769G        G6734A C7028T G8251A G8616T A8860G G9053A A9531G G9947A T10034C T10238C A10398G T10915C G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G         A15924G G16129A T16172C C16223T T16311C G16391A T16519C
           

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Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2012, 12:54:40 PM »

that is a champagne moment
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 01:04:43 PM »

Many thanks, I have drunk much absinth so far. Prosit to Richard Rocca and to you all!
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 01:07:28 PM »

It's a great finding, but I would be extremely perturbed if an R1b didn't turn up anywhere in the Beaker horizon especially when Iberia is such a focal point.

The paper seems to stress that there is no strong selection process when choosing female mates, where as in previous Neolithic family structures, I think the same line of mtDNA J1 appeared in something like 12 different women. All 6 samples are different, but at least 4 of the 6 look very North-Eurasian in origin - probably carrying a lot of DNA that might be hunter-gatherer. (W5, I1a1, U5, U2)  

What are other people's thoughts on this?
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Jean M
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 01:14:34 PM »

Is the other male xM269 in reality, or is this just decay on the sample? Any experts on this topic?

"The SNP M269 failed to amplify for the extract from grave 8, thus it is not possible to infer whether or not the two individuals shared the same paternal lineage." = They couldn't get copies of the sequence. See Polymerase chain reaction.

In other words, the other male could well have been M269, but they couldn't prove it.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 01:19:06 PM »

It's a great finding, but I would be extremely perturbed if an R1b didn't turn up anywhere in the Beaker horizon especially when Iberia is such a focal point.

The paper seems to stress that there is no strong selection process when choosing female mates, where as in previous Neolithic family structures, I think the same line of mtDNA J1 appeared in something like 12 different women. All 6 samples are different, but at least 4 of the 6 look very North-Eurasian in origin - probably carrying a lot of DNA that might be hunter-gatherer. (W5, I1a1, U5, U2)  

What are other people's thoughts on this?
I’ll give a glance at U2 too, but I remember to you all that some years ago I found on SMGF and put on Mitosearch an U2d from Italy with many mutations. The great Indian geneticist Palanichamy wrote to me asking that sample to test it by an FGS. Unfortunately, as you know, the SMGF samples are anonymous and I wasn’t able to give it to him. Anyway U2 was found in Russia at Kostenky more than 30 years ago if I remember well.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 01:27:41 PM »

All 6 samples are different, but at least 4 of the 6 look very North-Eurasian in origin - probably carrying a lot of DNA that might be hunter-gatherer. (W5, I1a1, U5, U2)  

What are other people's thoughts on this?

What they are saying about the U5 is extremely interesting. They have looked at Mesolithic and Neolithic U5 previously found in Europe and concluded

Quote
that these lineages did not continue into the present. Based on this haplotype distribution, due to genetic drift or some demographic event modern U5 haplotypes do not appear to have had significant contributions from the Mesolithic/Neolithic gene pool. At least for this haplogroup, it appears there is no simple story of continuity from the Neolithic to the present and that central Europe may have experienced complex demographic events since the Neolithic involving groups that harbored distinctive maternal lineages  

I'm not all that surprised, as I guessed that much of present U5 arrived with the Indo-Europeans, but I have yet to take in the data on where they got their modern samples. I would expect continuity in certain areas of Europe, notably the eastern fringe.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 01:35:22 PM »

All 6 samples are different, but at least 4 of the 6 look very North-Eurasian in origin - probably carrying a lot of DNA that might be hunter-gatherer. (W5, I1a1, U5, U2)  

What are other people's thoughts on this?

What they are saying about the U5 is extremely interesting. They have looked at Mesolithic and Neolithic U5 previously found in Europe and concluded

Quote
that these lineages did not continue into the present. Based on this haplotype distribution, due to genetic drift or some demographic event modern U5 haplotypes do not appear to have had significant contributions from the Mesolithic/Neolithic gene pool. At least for this haplogroup, it appears there is no simple story of continuity from the Neolithic to the present and that central Europe may have experienced complex demographic events since the Neolithic involving groups that harbored distinctive maternal lineages  

I'm not all that surprised, as I guessed that much of present U5 arrived with the Indo-Europeans, but I have yet to take in the data on where they got their modern samples. I would expect continuity in certain areas of Europe, notably the eastern fringe.

Do you think this could be interpreted as male lineages who marry out as part of their outward looking and networking social system.  Marrying beyond your locality in order to network, use marriage to find alliances and indeed to find someone of the same social status (if you are top of the pile locally) all makes sense to me.  Marrying within ones community as non-beaker Neolithic people may have done. is a more inward looking system and perhaps less class orientated. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2012, 01:36:35 PM »

Is the other male xM269 in reality, or is this just decay on the sample? Any experts on this topic?

"The SNP M269 failed to amplify for the extract from grave 8, thus it is not possible to infer whether or not the two individuals shared the same paternal lineage." = They couldn't get copies of the sequence. See Polymerase chain reaction.

In other words, the other male could well have been M269, but they couldn't prove it.

Odds are they were and indeed they were close relations of each other if its a patrilocal, patrilineal society.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2012, 01:46:34 PM »

16129C 16182C 16183C 16189C 16362C 73G 152C 217C 263G
plus 7028T 10873C 14766T
Unfortunately they have tested only from 15,995 to 16,429 and from 00034 to 00287.
This haplogroup could be U2e1’2’3, not documented so far. It could be a U2e1 with  C340T or some subclade…but it seems to me having found in the past a similar haplotype in Italy with 16182C and 16183C, elsewhere deleted. If  I find it, I’ll post it soon.

P.S. I had to add: 16051G and 16192C.
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Maliclavelli


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Jean M
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 01:53:13 PM »

Odds are they were and indeed they were close relations of each other if its a patrilocal, patrilineal society.

I was thinking the same.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2012, 01:59:13 PM »

16129C 16182C 16183C 16189C 16362C 73G 152C 217C 263G
plus 7028T 10873C 14766T
Unfortunately they have tested only from 15,995 to 16,429 and from 00034 to 00287.
This haplogroup could be U2e1’2’3, not documented so far. It could be a U2e1 with  C340T or some subclade…but it seems to me having found in the past a similar haplotype in Italy with 16182C and 16183C, elsewhere deleted. If  I find it, I’ll post it soon.

No Italians, but many Central Europeans get this hapolotype, with other mutations. I'd say that is typically European from many thousands of years.
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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