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Author Topic: Bell Beaker link to R1b confirmed by Ancient DNA  (Read 35984 times)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2012, 12:14:58 AM »

Here was the Italian U2e!

Salve Gioiello,

M.A.B.:
I am two off the Bell Beaker U2 results, at least if these results are accurate, and for the sites they tested. I am U2e.

The following are taken from Jean Manco's Ancient DNA site at
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

These are the results in the table:16051G, 16092C, 16129C, 16182C, 16183C, 16189C, 16362C, 73G, 152C, 263G

I have all of the above, except 16182C. In addition, I have 217C in HVRII.

I don't know what it means yet. If any mtdna gurus read this (perhaps I should post on the mtdna thread as well) I'd appreciate any insight you could provide.

M.A.B.
M.A.B.:
If I am reading the new mtdna chart at phylotree.org correctly, the Bell Beaker specimen is U2e2. Is that correct? If it is correct, it might be important that I have a notation about a U2e2 in Jordan which is very old. I have to try to track down the source.


Maria, I just woke up and must prepared me for going to work. I'll write you this afternoon. I have written a lot about this in these last years, like Gioiello, Maliclavelli, Claire etc. I am going to win my war, bacause a war has been, with many banishments above all from Jews who didn't accept my theories about their origin. My theory of the Italian Refugium is that hg. R1b and many mt-s come from Italy. The Bell Beakers come from Portugal, but they discend from the agriculturalists who by sea colonized 7500 ya that region, taking a IE-Ligurian language, from which the Lusitanian and all the Celt languages.
Jean Manco has been one of my worst enemies, but I think she has had the lection she merited.

Gioiello
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 02:44:05 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2012, 12:46:59 AM »

The mt K1, which is also mine, with the mutations 16093C 16224C 16311C 16319A 73G 152C 195C 263G seems a K1b1a2. The two samples in Behar 2012b

EU714300 and EF177415 seem to belong both to Portuguese.

This would confirm the origin of Bell Beaker culture from Iberia.

The origin of the Bell Beaker culture from Iberia finally proven by genetics will definitely add more credibility to Cunliffe's theory. This is getting interesting.

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Arch Y.
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« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2012, 12:57:42 AM »

Hot off the presses:

Lee et al. (2012)
Emerging Genetic Patterns of the European Neolithic: Perspectives From a Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Burial Site in Germany


Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals,
which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

More to come when I read the whole thing.

Excellent find! This is huge! Hopefully, we can get some Iberian samples in the very near future.

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Heber
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« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2012, 02:17:09 AM »

If they are U106-, can we assume that they are probably P312+ or is that a step too far.

"The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic."

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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Maliclavelli
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« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2012, 02:48:26 AM »

Investigations in the Mediterranean and France recently questioned the nature of the phenomenon. Instead of being pictured as a fashion or a simple diffusion of objects and their use, the investigation of over 300 sites showed that human groups actually moved in a process that involved explorations, contacts, settlement, diffusions and acculturation/assimilation. Some elements show the influence from the north and east, and other elements reveal the south-east of France to be an important cross road on an important route of communication and exchange spreading north. A distinctive barbed wire element is thought to have migrated through central Italy first. The pattern of movements was diverse and complicated, along the Atlantic coast and the northern Mediterranean coast, and sometimes also far inland. The prominent central role of Portugal in the region and the quality of the pottery all across Europe are forwarded as arguments to a new interpretation that denies an ideological dimension.[17]
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Maliclavelli


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Jean M
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« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2012, 03:38:21 AM »

@Jean M

Is this development too late to make it into your book?

It will go into the book, never fear. Part of the reason for delay was hope of a few more aDNA papers.


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secherbernard
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« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2012, 03:47:04 AM »

It might seem like that at first glance, but the study looked very closely at mtDNA U5. It found that modern U5 does not descend from the Mesolithic and Neolithic U5 so far discovered in aDNA. Continuity does not appear.
I spoke about genetic continuity between Neolithic and Bell Beaker, not between Neolithic and modern people. We must be cautious about the figures 2 and 3 because they take account only of HVR results and not coding region results. Nevertheless, in the figure 2, the K Beaker sample is at the tip of its branch just after mesolithic and neolithic samples, and the U5 Beaker samples is inserted between one mesolithic haplotype and one neolithic haplotype. These results seem to show genetic continuity. I agree about the U2 sample. U2 has not yet been discovered in mesolithic or neolithic samples in Europe, but it is only one sample out of 6.

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« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2012, 03:52:47 AM »


The highest levels of U5 in Europe today are around the Baltic. 


Here is the distribution of mt-DNA U5 in Basques and their neighbors from Table-S3 of the Martinez-Cruz et al(2012) study:


My apologies. Should have noticed that.
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Jean M
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« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2012, 04:05:10 AM »

The origin of the Bell Beaker culture from Iberia finally proven by genetics ...

Links from DNA in Germany 2,600–2,500 BC to present-day people in Iberia do not prove an origin of the former from Iberia. Maliclavelli has that the wrong way around. Present-day people are descended from ancient people.

That does not mean that present-day people in Portugal are directly descended from those buried in Germany 2,600–2,500 BC either, though obviously they are related if they share a haplogroup. The problem is that we have no aDNA from Bell Beaker people in Portugal. If and when we get that, I would expect a mixture of mtDNA haplogroups similar to that in the two Bell Beaker sites which have so far yielded aDNA. As I pointed out above, there are similarities with the mtDNA from Andronovo too. But we'll have to wait and see.

I know that this paper is exciting, but let's not over-interpret. We have a long way to go yet. :)
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polako
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« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2012, 04:05:51 AM »

Awesome news!

So the R1b vs. R1a division in Europe is actually (Mediterranean) Bell Beaker vs. (Northeastern European) Corded Ware. Fantastic!

I assume the Bell Beakers eventually picked up Northeast European autosomal admixture from the Corded Ware folk by swapping women.

There was then a back migration, or indeed a series of back migrations, carrying North European influence, and R1b, back west and south. Hence, the fairly pure Oetzis with minimal Northern influence only survived on Sardinia.

Jean M, well done spotting the similarity between the Bell Beaker and Andronovo mtDNAs. As you know, Andronovo groups originated in modern Poland, so those mtDNAs in the Bell Beakers are probably courtesy of recently acquired Corded Ware women.

And no, there won't be any U106 in Corded Ware remains. Unless of course, we're talking about hybrid groups with heavy Bell Beaker admixture.

I can see some I2 in pure Corded Ware folk, but certainly no Mediterranean R1b.
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Jean M
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« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2012, 04:15:17 AM »

well done spotting the similarity between the Bell Beaker and Andronovo mtDNAs. As you know, Andronovo groups originated in modern Poland,

No I don't know that at all Polako. : ) You can scarcely be blamed for thinking that, since anti-migrationism has ruled archaeology for decades, and the standard view of Corded Ware has been that it sprang locally from the TRB, which sprang locally from hunter-gatherers. Now we have evidence both genetic and anthropological that the TRB actually was the result of farmers fleeing north from the Balkans as the climate changed c. 4000 BC. The Corded Ware people look completely different from them and more like hunter-gatherer types, which was one of the reasons people thought there was continuity from local hunter-gatherers right through to Corded Ware. Not so. The Corded Ware types were derived from Yamnaya and probably some earlier drift northwards from the steppe.

So I would expect a resemblance between Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and  Andronovo mtDNA haplogroups, because they were all from the same mixture of sources.



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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2012, 04:16:11 AM »

M.A.B. writes privately to me: “These are the results in the table:16051G, 16092C, 16129C, 16182C, 16183C, 16189C, 16362C, 73G, 152C, 263G

I have all of the above, except 16182C. In addition, I have 217C in HVRII.”

Maria, your haplotype matches that of this Bell Beaker person except in 16182C. It would be interesting an FGS, if you haven’t done it yet. You could belong to the Italian ancestress of this Bell Beaker people from Portugal.
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« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2012, 04:26:28 AM »

No I don't know that at all Polako. : ) You can scarcely be blamed for thinking that, since anti-migrationism has ruled archaeology for decades, and the standard view of Corded Ware has been that it sprang locally from the TRB, which sprang locally from hunter-gatherers. Now we have evidence both genetic and anthropological that the TRB actually was the result of farmers fleeing north from the Balkans as the climate changed c. 4000 BC. The Corded Ware people look completely different from them and more like hunter-gatherer types, which was one of the reasons people thought there was continuity from local hunter-gatherers right through to Corded Ware. Not so. The Corded Ware types were derived from Yamnaya and probably some earlier drift northwards from the steppe.

So I would expect a resemblance between Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and  Andronovo mtDNA haplogroups, because they were all from the same mixture of sources.

Jean, please don't ignore the totality of evidence, including the recent genome-wide results from the Gotland hunter-gatherers.

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2241/skoalleles.png

You simply need to embrace the fact that the hunter-gatherers in what is now Poland became the Corded Ware folk, and then eventually Poles.

You're only delaying the inevitable.
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« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2012, 04:38:33 AM »

@ Polako

The Pitted Ware Culture appears to reflect the arrival of Uralic-speakers in Scandinavia. See The linguistic arguments: Uralic. It brought hunter-gathering back to Scandinavia after farming had arrived with the TRB. The anti-migrationist model meant that the conventional view for some time was that the Pitted Ware culture reflected farmers returning to hunter-gathering.

The recent study of the Gotland samples just added to what we knew already from aDNA mtDNA: the Pitted Ware people were no relation to the TRB people. The former do not reflect the latter going back to hunter-gathering.

Naturally you will find modern people in the Uralic-speaking areas and their close neighbours who show similarity to Pitted Ware types, just as you find Y-DNA N1c1 in those areas.
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polako
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« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2012, 04:59:58 AM »

@ Polako

The Pitted Ware Culture appears to reflect the arrival of Uralic-speakers in Scandinavia. See The linguistic arguments: Uralic. It brought hunter-gathering back to Scandinavia after farming had arrived with the TRB. The anti-migrationist model meant that the conventional view for some time was that the Pitted Ware culture reflected farmers returning to hunter-gathering.

The recent study of the Gotland samples just added to what we knew already from aDNA mtDNA: the Pitted Ware people were no relation to the TRB people. The former do not reflect the latter going back to hunter-gathering.

Naturally you will find modern people in the Uralic-speaking areas and their close neighbours who show similarity to Pitted Ware types, just as you find Y-DNA N1c1 in those areas.

Jean, Uralic was never spoken in or near Poland.

Your sources are outdated. If I actually passed on what you just said to a couple of experts on Uralic languages that I know, they'd have a heart attack.

Also, N1c1 is almost at 0% in much of Poland, except near the Lithuanian border. So it's a Baltic thing, not a Uralic thing in Poland.

Look, we're about to be inundated with ancient DNA data. Do yourself a favor and consider the notion of significant genetic continuity in Poland since the Mesolithic, and even the fact that it was an area of several major expansions, both to the east and west.

The sooner you do, the better you'll come off in the long run.
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rms2
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« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2012, 07:00:52 AM »

It seems misleading and incorrect to refer to Bell Beakers as "Mediterranean". Although there is some dispute over the accuracy of radiocarbon dating, thus far, the oldest rc dated Beaker stuff comes from the Tagus River Valley in Portugal. That may not be too far from the Mediterranean, but the Tagus flows west through the middle of Spain, across Portugal, and out into the Atlantic. The Tagus does not empty into the Mediterranean, and no part of the Tagus Valley is part of the Mediterranean littoral.

Some of the oldest Beaker material comes from the Hungarian Plain, which is hardly near the Mediterranean.



 
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« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2012, 07:06:14 AM »

If they are U106-, can we assume that they are probably P312+ or is that a step too far.

"The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic."



They could have been P312+; it's a shame they weren't tested for it. It's also possible they were merely R-L11.
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« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2012, 07:11:13 AM »

If they are U106-, can we assume that they are probably P312+ or is that a step too far.

"The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic."



They could have been P312+; it's a shame they weren't tested for it. It's also possible they were merely R-L11.

Would it be worthwhile asking them if they would consider testing these two SNPs ?
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« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2012, 08:26:08 AM »

it wouldn't hurt to ask.
If the answer is no..perhaps they would consider it when testing future samples?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2012, 08:28:27 AM »

Jean Manco writes: “Links from DNA in Germany 2,600–2,500 BC to present-day people in Iberia do not prove an origin of the former from Iberia. Maliclavelli has that the wrong way around. Present-day people are descended from ancient people”.


I don’t know who Polako is, but he said two things I want to quote:

You're only delaying the inevitable.
The sooner you do, the better you'll come off in the long run.

About what you says to me, I’d want to remember you that you have just done a poor figure with me about the Basque mt.

Mutations in mtDNA are very rare and if I linked the Bell Beaker mtDNA with present day Portuguese (but weren’t Portuguese you too?) and no other one (I’d like to link it with Italian ones, and perhaps I found it in the Maria Lazzari one) this does mean that the closest all over the world are they and not others. Of course we could think that both came from elsewhere, but in History and in Genetics we shall get a theory, and I have one: from Italy to Iberia, from Iberia to Bell Beaker etc.
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« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2012, 08:54:17 AM »

it wouldn't hurt to ask.
If the answer is no..perhaps they would consider it when testing future samples?

I am working that angle with a few of the authors. Usually the answer is 'no', but let's see.
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Jean M
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« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2012, 08:58:24 AM »


Jean, Uralic was never spoken in or near Poland.

We don't know for sure how far south Finnic spread before contracting northward under pressure from Baltic speakers, but the Comb Ceramic Culture (assumed to represent them) seems to reach the Vistula. I doubt whether they had much impact on the territory now Poland. But in any case Poland was pretty well empty when  the Slavs arrived, apart from Pomerania. Take heart! Poland is super-Slavic.

For those interested - Livonian (a Finnic language) remains as a minority language in Latvia and there are toponyms in Latvia of Finno-Ugrian origin.   http://mek.oszk.hu/06000/06010/06010.pdf
  
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Jdean
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« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2012, 09:39:00 AM »

it wouldn't hurt to ask.
If the answer is no..perhaps they would consider it when testing future samples?

I am working that angle with a few of the authors. Usually the answer is 'no', but let's see.

Fingers crossed !!!
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« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2012, 10:06:52 AM »

...  and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b....

What are the known physical characteristics for the males?   Are they broad heads?
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« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2012, 10:31:55 AM »

...  and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b....

What are the known physical characteristics for the males?   Are they broad heads?

I was thinking that too.  People tend to think of them as massive bruisers of hefty build with brachycephalic heads.  However, I understand that it tends to be that the head is flattened at the back rather than really wide from side to side that produced the cranial index result.  Although very old and controversial if you google Coon races of Europe his book is online and he has quite a bit to say about the beaker people in the neolithic and copper age sections.  He seems to reckong that the type may have come from the Armenia/Anatolia zone along the Med in the copper age.  Ignore his calendar dates though as this was pre-the application of radiocarbon.  He seems to say that the big brachycephalic bruiser type is rarest in Iberia and most common towards the Rhine and then dilutes again to the east somewhat. More evidence that the actual entry to northern and central Europe of the beaker culture may have been rather to the east of Iberia regardless of whether or not the pots were invented there (a recent paper has disputed the earliest dates being from Portugal again).  I agree with jean that finding R1b in a beaker burial in Germany as some sort of evidence for R1b's origin in Iberia is a massive leap of illogic.  I keep think the main entry of this type was probably around western Italy by leapfrogging Scicilly etc and then up the Rhone as well as west to Iberia.  In this respect I find the L51* map very interesting in that it may be an echo of when L11* and P312* and perhaps U106* groups were heading off to varoius areas they may well have still had L51* lineages among them.  Stands to reason if L11 and P312 had only just come into existence.  Of course P312* is also oldest in the same area.  I think probablly L51 occurred as some L23* people rounded the north-west side of Italy by sea and then L11 and P312 occurred in the Rhone valley before the latter spread in all directions in a starburst.   

As for the dates for these burials in the recent paper.  They are pushing 2600BC and are early in the beaker sequence for central Europe.  Indeed they are about the same age as is normally calculated for L11 and P312 so it is possible they were L51* or L11*.  They really lived at the earliest possibly moment for P312* if the (remakablly consistant) variance calculations are right.   
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