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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #275 on: August 27, 2012, 02:51:36 PM »

Well what about U152?  Does that STR value occur among U152 also (which a very common clade in Italy).

Ask Richard Rocca how many people are in the U152 FTDNA Project. These are the DYS426=13 and the last 3 belong to the same Jewish cluster R-L4:

N9622 Johannes Grauel, b. 1625, Schluctern, Hessen, Germ Germany R1b1a2a1a1b3c
13 22 14 11 11-12 13 12 11 13 14 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 17 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 18-23 16 15 20 18 37-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 18 8 13 23 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
 
207384 Miguel Carlos de Godoy, Jerez, Zacatecas, b. 1692 Mexico R1b1a2a1a1b3
13 24 14 11 12-14 13 12 11 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-17-17-17 11 11 23-23 15 15 17 17 36-38 12 12                                                                                                                      
34105 Jean Jaque Maillard, 1720? Vaud, Switzerland Switzerland R1b1a2a1a1b3
13 24 14 11 12-13 13 12 11 13 13 30 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-16-16-17 11 10 19-23 15 14 18 17 36-38 12 13                                                                                  

177208   Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b3d
13 24 14 11 14-14 13 12 11 13 14 29 16 9-10 11 12 25 15 19 28 15-17-17-17 12 12 19-23 15 14 17 20 36-36 14 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 11 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 14 9 13 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 14 12                                                                                        

155510 Hirsch Hermelin, b.c.1875 Poland R1b1a2a1a1b3d
13 24 14 11 14-14 13 12 11 13 15 29 17 9-10 11 12 25 15 19 28 15-17-17-17 11 12 19-23 15 14 18 19 36-36 14 12

B1351 Samuel b' Ascher Yachmiel (Louis) Rottenberg/burg Austria R1b1a2a1a1b3d
13 25 14 11 14-14 13 12 11 13 14 29 17 9-10 11 12 26 15 19 28 15-17-17-17 12 12 19-23 15 14 18 20 36-36 14 12                                   13     12                                                   11 30 12 13 24 13 10                       23           13
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 02:53:28 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #276 on: August 27, 2012, 06:46:07 PM »

Bearing in mind that there are 14 people in the R-L21 project with this value I'd say not very :)
How is the percentage of DYS426=13 in the R-L21? Probably 0,0something. Here they are 10,13% of the people tested. When I suggested to an Italian with DYS426=13 to test L51, he did, and now he is amongst the R-L51 of the "ht 35 FTDNA Project". Many (Italian) people from SMGF I put on ySearch...

The percentage of 426>=13 among L21 people is very low, like 1.4%, but testing is so high among L21 you'll still run into them. There are 93 426=13 and even two 426=14 in FTDNA projects, that I can find.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #277 on: August 30, 2012, 05:36:23 AM »

Someone shed some doubt about my R-L51 found in the Pichler et al.’s paper, based only upon DYS426=13, but in these years I have found some haplotypes of Italians tested by SMGF (Italians of Italy are low tested but fortunately amongst the 100,000,000 living all around the world we may find someone), and many come just from the North-East Italy:

ADR66, Henrique (actually Rech), Carpeneda, Folgaria, Trento, Italy
65X69, Bez Batti, Urussaga, Santa Catarina, Brazil (from Ialy)
B3XE5, Marchese Mera, Chile (Marchese is a Ligurian surname)
PH67W, De Bona, Farroupilha, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil (from Italy)
TDM4D, Martignago, Treviso, Italy
4GW9W, Baldacci, Genova, Italy

They have all DYS426=13, DYS461=11, and often DYS464d=18. They are out of any doubt R-L51.

PS. Amongst these there is also

JC7VE, Finney, Londonderry, Ireland, to demonstrate the presence of R-L51 found by Richard Rocca between Ireland and Ulster.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #278 on: August 30, 2012, 10:14:22 PM »

Someone shed some doubt about my R-L51 found in the Pichler et al.’s paper, based only upon DYS426=13, but in these years I have found some haplotypes of Italians tested by SMGF (Italians of Italy are low tested but fortunately amongst the 100,000,000 living all around the world we may find someone), and many come just from the North-East Italy:

ADR66, Henrique (actually Rech), Carpeneda, Folgaria, Trento, Italy
65X69, Bez Batti, Urussaga, Santa Catarina, Brazil (from Ialy)
B3XE5, Marchese Mera, Chile (Marchese is a Ligurian surname)
PH67W, De Bona, Farroupilha, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil (from Italy)
TDM4D, Martignago, Treviso, Italy
4GW9W, Baldacci, Genova, Italy

They have all DYS426=13, DYS461=11, and often DYS464d=18. They are out of any doubt R-L51.

PS. Amongst these there is also

JC7VE, Finney, Londonderry, Ireland, to demonstrate the presence of R-L51 found by Richard Rocca between Ireland and Ulster.

Can you recruit them for deeper SNP testing? That would truly be of value. DYS464 is fairly fast moving. I wouldn't trust DYS464 values to be stable for 3000-4000 years or more if that is how deep the branching is that you are talking about.

There maybe an R1b-L51* subclade that is DYS426=13, DYS461=11, and often DYS464d=18. If so that is not necessarily ancient. It may be, and probably is, that most of the R1b-L51+ L11- branches have died off and a 426=13 DYS461=11 464d=18 subclade is just a single thin, and possibly fairly young branch left over.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #279 on: August 30, 2012, 11:55:57 PM »

Can you recruit them for deeper SNP testing? That would truly be of value. DYS464 is fairly fast moving. I wouldn't trust DYS464 values to be stable for 3000-4000 years or more if that is how deep the branching is that you are talking about.

There maybe an R1b-L51* subclade that is DYS426=13, DYS461=11, and often DYS464d=18. If so that is not necessarily ancient. It may be, and probably is, that most of the R1b-L51+ L11- branches have died off and a 426=13 DYS461=11 464d=18 subclade is just a single thin, and possibly fairly young branch left over.
It is just what we have said many times. Anyhow amongst these Italians only Henrique (Rech), Marchese Mera, Martignago have DYS464d=18. Bez Batti, De Bona have 17, and Baldacci has 16. This demonstrates that there have been some mutations, and we should look also at the other DYS464 values. But DYS426=13 and DYS461=11 may last also from many thousands of years.
I have found on SMGF 57 people with this cluster (some come from the same familial stock). 8 are Italians, but there is people from all Europe, from the places where R-L51 is more diffused, and also 4 from Mongolia, we should see at which haplogroup belong. Unfortunately I exhausted my queries, but one Mexican I had already put on ySearch: Carrasco (697EH), who is a witness of the Iberian R-L51, and he has DYS464=16-17-18, with one lost, and another Mexican, unfortunately incompletely tested, matches him.

PS. Of course the SMGF people cannot be recruited for other testes, because they are anonymous, except the ancestors born more than a century ago..

« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 05:44:48 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #280 on: August 31, 2012, 01:23:12 AM »

Perhaps it is interesting to investigate those Poles found by Richard Rocca having a decent percentage of R-L51.
We have Markowicz (ySearch: F5FN2). Who are the closest to him on SMGF?
Rech (Enrique): ySearch ADR66
Martignago: ySearch TMD4D

And the third is another Brazilian of Italian descent not found so far because with DY455=10 (and 11 was one of the obliged values of the cluster)

Del Re: ySearch NBABJ
And his YCAII=19-22 may explain the 19-21 of Markowicz.

Which the conclusions?
I let them to Mikewww.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 05:43:51 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #281 on: August 31, 2012, 03:30:44 AM »

The closest to Italians (Henrique/Rech, Bez Batti, De Bona) to Spain is the Mexican Huerta (ySearch: 75TUD) from Spain. The Spaniard closest to Huerta is Fernandez (ySearch: HU6TM), who, with his DYS464=15-16-18, is the closest to the other Mexicans like Carrasco Duarte (ySearch: 697EH) and demonstrates that the lost of one peak happened in Spain.
The other line of expansion from Italy is that to France and the Isles.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 03:31:31 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #282 on: August 31, 2012, 04:09:02 AM »

The French Lemonnier, already tested by GeneTree, but put on ySearch (SYC7N) without converting the values, is now ySearch 7BUPA. He is the closest to the Spaniard Fernandez (HU6TM) and demonstrates that the expansion of R-L51 happened from Iberia to France till the Isles and a little also to Scandinavia, mixing with the other expansion from Italy to Switzerland and Central Europe.
My hypothesis that this is due to the expansion of Ceramica Impressa from Italy by sea to Iberia and by land from South France is more alive than ever.

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Maliclavelli


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Heber
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« Reply #283 on: August 31, 2012, 07:43:01 AM »

We now have a good idea about the origin and expansion of L51 thanks to Richard Rocca's map. Do we have an equivalent one for L11. Richard are you working on one?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


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Jarman
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« Reply #284 on: August 31, 2012, 08:07:56 AM »

We now have a good idea about the origin and expansion of L51 . . .

Huh?  We do?????
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #285 on: August 31, 2012, 08:14:51 AM »

We now have a good idea about the origin and expansion of L51 thanks to Richard Rocca's map. Do we have an equivalent one for L11. Richard are you working on one?

Myres created an L11 frequency map. Unfortunately L11's distribution is too fragmented into small areas. The small areas are too distant from one another to really derive at anything.
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Jarman
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« Reply #286 on: August 31, 2012, 08:20:14 AM »

We now have a good idea about the origin and expansion of L51 thanks to Richard Rocca's map. Do we have an equivalent one for L11. Richard are you working on one?

The Myers L11 map:
http://www.4shared.com/photo/jqJQfXYk/R-L23_and_R-L11_Frequency_Maps.html

A new Rocca map could be helpful.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #287 on: August 31, 2012, 03:03:47 PM »

Someone shed some doubt about my R-L51 found in the Pichler et al.’s paper, based only upon DYS426=13, but in these years I have found some haplotypes of Italians tested by SMGF (Italians of Italy are low tested but fortunately amongst the 100,000,000 living all around the world we may find someone), and many come just from the North-East Italy:

ADR66, Henrique (actually Rech), Carpeneda, Folgaria, Trento, Italy
65X69, Bez Batti, Urussaga, Santa Catarina, Brazil (from Ialy)
B3XE5, Marchese Mera, Chile (Marchese is a Ligurian surname)
PH67W, De Bona, Farroupilha, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil (from Italy)
TDM4D, Martignago, Treviso, Italy
4GW9W, Baldacci, Genova, Italy

They have all DYS426=13, DYS461=11, and often DYS464d=18. They are out of any doubt R-L51.

PS. Amongst these there is also

JC7VE, Finney, Londonderry, Ireland, to demonstrate the presence of R-L51 found by Richard Rocca between Ireland and Ulster.


lol.  That is not going to go down well with some folks
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 04:21:31 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
inver2b1
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« Reply #288 on: August 31, 2012, 03:25:58 PM »

Jim McGuiness would be confused to say the least.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #289 on: August 31, 2012, 04:02:13 PM »

lol.  That is not going to go down to well with some folks

Which is the problem? This is the map

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.png

the highest frequency is between Ireland and Ulster!
I didn't speak of Londonderry.
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Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #290 on: August 31, 2012, 04:19:56 PM »

lol.  That is not going to go down to well with some folks

Which is the problem? This is the map

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.png

the highest frequency is between Ireland and Ulster!
I didn't speak of Londonderry.


No problem and to be honest you just cant win when it comes to the sensitivities but Ulster is the northern part of Ireland i.e. a subdivision of it.  Probably the best way to describe it is just the 'Ulster border' (with Leinster and Connaught).  Technically it is the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.  To be honest its impossible to describe without someone not liking it as there are always people out there who like getting offended.  I personally dont care at all.  its just words.   
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #291 on: August 31, 2012, 04:49:52 PM »

Alan, I live so far. I did know of course of the problems there, but for me Ulster=Northern Ireland and Ireland= Republic of Ireland. You understand that there wasn't anything else in my words.
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Maliclavelli


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inver2b1
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« Reply #292 on: August 31, 2012, 04:50:49 PM »

lol.  That is not going to go down to well with some folks

Which is the problem? This is the map

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.png

the highest frequency is between Ireland and Ulster!
I didn't speak of Londonderry.


Two thirds of Ulster os within the Morthern Ireland border. Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan are outside it.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #293 on: August 31, 2012, 05:01:46 PM »

Two thirds of Ulster os within the Northern Ireland border. Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan are outside it.
I apologize, but I believed that Ulster were the same of Northern Ireland, and I am also a teacher of Geography beyond History Italian and Latin. I thank you for the specification.
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Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #294 on: August 31, 2012, 05:11:37 PM »

Two thirds of Ulster os within the Northern Ireland border. Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan are outside it.
I apologize, but I believed that Ulster were the same of Northern Ireland, and I am also a teacher of Geography beyond History Italian and Latin. I thank you for the specification.

No problem.  I wasnt really being serious.  Some people are sensitive about these things but I am not one of them.  It is impossible to keep everyone happy on these things as 'one man's meat is another mans poison'
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 05:13:45 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
inver2b1
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« Reply #295 on: August 31, 2012, 05:16:11 PM »

Two thirds of Ulster os within the Northern Ireland border. Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan are outside it.
I apologize, but I believed that Ulster were the same of Northern Ireland, and I am also a teacher of Geography beyond History Italian and Latin. I thank you for the specification.

It can get confusing ad the terms Northern Ireland Ulster are used meaning the same thing regularly.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #296 on: August 31, 2012, 05:57:38 PM »

Just to be clear, as I define geographies for the spreadsheet data I maintain I use this:

Ulster - the old province of Ulster.  Same goes for the provinces like Leinster, Connacht and Munster.

Ireland - the island of Ireland. I'm not using the political boundaries.

In England I use the standard regions such as North West, West Midlands, East Midlands, Yorshire and Humber, East, South East, South West, North East.

In Scotland I have troubles because I wanted reflect the old Strathclyde and lowlands/central area as one so my Scottish definitions are a bit strange - West & Central, South, North and East.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Luan
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« Reply #297 on: February 26, 2013, 08:39:42 AM »

So is there anything about these M269* folks.  I heard it suggested that some were Jewish.  That would complicate things. 

Some of the R1b-M269(xL23) folks from the ht35 project are said to be Jews. However, the data I provided was from the Myres et al(2010) study. AFAIK Jewish could be a possibility for Romania, although I doubt all 9 people that have R1b-M269(xL23) would be Jews. Given that the samples were collected from Romania, the probability is that those were likely ethnic Romanians. This is what I found about the Jewish population in Romania nowadays:


Quote
The situation for the Jews of Romania later improved, but the community has shrunk, mainly through aliyah - Today only about 6000 Jews remain in Romania, primarily in urban areas.[69]

source

Serbia, Macedonia, Kosovo are very likely ethnic Serbians, Macedonians, and Albanians respectively.

Something interesting is that R1b-M269(xL23) peaks in Kosovo (i.e. It is 9/114 or 7.89%), which is inhabited by Albanians who speak Gheg Albanian.

Here is the interesting part about Albanian:

Quote
The Albanian language is a distinct Indo-European language that does not belong to any other existing branch; the other extant Indo-European isolate is Armenian.

It would be awesome to get some R1b-M269(xL23) haplotypes from Kosovo, or Albania, unfortunately Myres et al(2010) did not publish them. Any Haplotype data from Albanians would be very welcomed.


There is a new Albanian Y DNA project on FTDNA who so far have L23.
 
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject,Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=yresults
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