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Author Topic: R1b-L51 from the West  (Read 25774 times)
Richard Rocca
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« on: May 02, 2012, 12:09:40 PM »

Here is my L51* (aka S167 and M412) frequency map based on Busby et al. (2011) data. 


Click here to see the larger map: http://www.u152.org/images/stories/L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.png

Looking at the map, several several things are clear:

1. L51* is every bit the European marker that L11* is. In fact, it seems like L51* is more exclusive to Western European than L11* is.
2. Unlike L11*, which has a few areas of high frequency at distances far apart from one another (England, Portugal, Germany), we can definitely see that L51* has its core area in central/southern France with a secondary area in northern Italy.
3. As with L11*, L51* is invisible in the Balkans.

The L51* core frequency areas match extremely well with the Middle Neolithic Chasseen-Lagozza Culture of France and Northern Italy. I still have a suspicion that Middle to Late Neolithic Y-DNA will turn up R1b.

I would like to quote some points from Myres et al. (2010) which were quickly dismissed by DNA hobbyists but now seem to carry much more weight:

"...there is evidence of several post-LBK Neolithic expansions, ca 6000 years BP from the Paris basin region toward Northern Italy, Southern France and Iberia, characterized by the Chasseen horizon, as well as to England.”

"...based on 757 M412 (aka L51) chromosomes, suggests that the M412 (aka L51) lineage evolved in Europe soon after the arrival of a L23* ancestor."

"...notable are the equivalent expansion times for all S116 (aka P312)...related lineages."

Just a reminder, the distribution of U152 is very similar to the distribution of L51* and U152 also has higher variance than L21, Z196 and U106. The highest variance for P312-“All” is SE France.

So, what do I make of all of this? The path of R1b into Western Europe was south of the Alps. Proto-Chasseen wares were inspired by those from Southern Italy, so I think Middle Neolithic L23* went up the Italic peninsula via the Tyrrhenian Coast.  Some place near the Franco-Italian border and close to the Ligurian Sea, the first carrier of L51* was born. This mutation would be carried by the Chasseen-Lagozza-Cortaillod Cultures and would produce L11 somewhere near central France. From there, all other branches would expand – U152 back to the Alps, DF27 to SW France and Iberia, and L21 from NW France into SW England. I recall that the earliest famers on the continent (LBK G2a?) did not make it to England but rather the Chasseen derived ones did. This may explain the free-hand L21 had in replacing the earlier British Isles population.
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 12:55:47 PM »

Thanks, Richard.  Did you notice any STR patterns among L51* people? commonalities with WAMH?

As you known, I'm very interested in STR diversity clines, if they can be found. Our ht35 project has some anomalies in the modals through the different phylogenetic layers, as Maliclavelli has pointed out.

I glossed over those quotes in the studies as well. Thank you for bringing them up.

....
3. As with L11*, L51* is invisible in the Balkans.

The L51* core frequency areas match extremely well with the Middle Neolithic Chasseen-Lagozza Culture of France and Northern Italy. I still have a suspicion that Middle to Late Neolithic Y-DNA will turn up R1b.....

Maliclavelli, this should be right up your alley.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:11:51 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 01:04:46 PM »

Thanks, Richard.  Did you notice any STR patterns among L51* people? commonalities with WAMH?

As you known, I'm very interested in STR diversity clines, if they can be found. Our ht35 project has some anomalies in the modals through the different phylogenetic layers, as Maliclavelli has pointed out.

I glossed over those quotes in the studies as well. Thank you for bringing them up.


Yes, the obvious one is that in L51* samples, DYS426=13 instead of the WAMH value of 12.

Using Ken's Gen7, I get TMRCA of 2935 BC ± 475 for the living descendants of L51 which would put it in the latter part of the Chasseen time frame. Of course the date should be older when taking into account dead branches.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 01:12:21 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 01:13:05 PM »

Great work, Rich! But should I be glad that Mikewww let me become a Georgian (Macleveli)?
If you read a post of mine about the “Vasi a bocca quadrata” culture (in Italian), here I expressed some doubts that the Chassée culture from France has replaced that of the “Vasi a bocca quadrata”, certainly autochthonous of Italy, and with a military élite. Anyway I am here, R-L23/L150+, with my relatives R-M269* and above all my Mangino (actually the Tuscan Mancini) I think the first intermediate between R1b1* and R-M269*.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 01:26:42 PM »

Great work, Rich! But should I be glad that Mikewww let me become a Georgian (Macleveli)?
If you read a post of mine about the “Vasi a bocca quadrata” culture (in Italian), here I expressed some doubts that the Chassée culture from France has replaced that of the “Vasi a bocca quadrata”, certainly autochthonous of Italy, and with a military élite. Anyway I am here, R-L23/L150+, with my relatives R-M269* and above all my Mangino (actually the Tuscan Mancini) I think the first intermediate between R1b1* and R-M269*.


Thank you Gioiello. I did look into VBQ. However, after reading many books, and especially Borrello 1984, "The Lagozza Culture (3rd Millennium B. C.) in Northern and Central Italy", it seems clear that there is complete discontinuity between VBQ and Lagozza whereas Chasseen-Lagozza-Cortaillod seem to three local varieties of one single group.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 01:47:20 PM »

This could be the definitive explication of this phase, difficult to deny. Anyway it is still open the prehistory of this. You know that I have always supported that also an Italian  R1b1* (that with YCAII=18-22 and 18-23, found so far only in Italy) is the ancestor of R-M269* and R-L23* and that the Eastern one, with YCAII=21-23 and 23-23, is a paragroup, perhaps of that zone, perhaps come from Western Europe, which wasn’t the ancestor of our haplotypes. Other work to do. Otherwise we should demonstrate that R-L23 came from Middle East and was born there. But we should find other Manginos somewhere out of Tuscany and Italy.
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 02:55:38 PM »

I like it Richard. Up to a point! :)

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find some R1b-L51 in Late Neolithic Central Europe, since I suspect that R1b was travelling with dairy farmers. We shall see.
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 04:10:06 PM »

Thanks, Richard.  Did you notice any STR patterns among L51* people? commonalities with WAMH?

As you known, I'm very interested in STR diversity clines, if they can be found. Our ht35 project has some anomalies in the modals through the different phylogenetic layers, as Maliclavelli has pointed out.

I glossed over those quotes in the studies as well. Thank you for bringing them up.


Yes, the obvious one is that in L51* samples, DYS426=13 instead of the WAMH value of 12.

Using Ken's Gen7, I get TMRCA of 2935 BC ± 475 for the living descendants of L51 which would put it in the latter part of the Chasseen time frame. Of course the date should be older when taking into account dead branches.

I was hoping you'd seem some geographic pattern, i.e. L51* in the west is 426=12 and in the east is 426=13.   The geographic pattern may be "counter" to a western birth for L11.  I'll explain later after I look through the R1bHt35 project* for updates.  Peter Hrechdakian put me on to this.  My guess is things will remain murky.  I clearly don't know what (where) happened between L23 and P312/U106.

* BTW, I found a couple of new L2 guys over there. Lost I guess.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:15:02 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 05:42:41 PM »

great map.  Strange patchy distribution outside the core area of SE France/NW Italy.  Still tend to think it has a vaguely beakerish feel to it, allowing for some moderated dispalcement over the last 4000 years or so.  However, its not obvious what the story is with that one.  I have no idea why the Ulster border area would have a small peak there.  Not an obvious entry point to Ireland from the south. 
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 07:14:10 PM »

Very well done.

Certainly seems reasonable.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 12:12:12 AM »

great map.  Strange patchy distribution outside the core area of SE France/NW Italy.  Still tend to think it has a vaguely beakerish feel to it, allowing for some moderated dispalcement over the last 4000 years or so.  However, its not obvious what the story is with that one.  I have no idea why the Ulster border area would have a small peak there.  Not an obvious entry point to Ireland from the south.  

Of course I  just woke up and must go to work, but when I was in bed I was thinking that my theory of the migration of the agriculturalists from the Arene Candide to Iberia 7500 years ago should be taken present yet. The presence in Iberia is just in Valencia region and Portugal where this migration happened. The other distribution presupposes other later migrations witch faded a possible presence of R-L51:
1)   Italy from Apulia to Central Italy where happened the migration from the Balkans (also the language was different: Illiric against Italic)
2)   South France where was the Greek colony of Massalia
3)   The place in Alsace and German Switzerland where happened the German migration after the fall of the Roman Empire etc etc.

Other places may testify more recent migration from Italy:
1)   10% of Belgian people is of recent Italian migration
2)   Also in France is difficult to separate ancient and recent migration from Italy: at least 7% of French population comes from Italy recently etc.

I have already spoken of the link with South Poland when I spoke firstly of the Italian Refugium. Yes, the presence in North Ireland is less explicable, but we could think to a colonization by sea and through a river. Of course this are events of thousands of years ago and we don’t know what. But the presence in Ireland of my L23 could be a sign.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 05:09:37 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 08:03:42 AM »

R1b begins to spring up in Europe:

“Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b”.

American Journal of Physical Anthropology DOI: 10.1002/ajpa.22074

Emerging genetic patterns of the european neolithic: Perspectives from a late neolithic bell beaker burial site in Germany†

Esther J. Lee et al.

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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 08:15:38 AM »

The paper isn't for free, but by the supllements it seems that the last SNP tested is M269. Then we don't know which subclade. Hope that the paper publishes some STR value.
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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2012, 09:05:15 AM »

R1b begins to spring up in Europe:

“Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b”.

A nice bag of mixed mtDNA lollies.  

No STRS in this study.  They did test for U106 but both R1b samples were negative for it.  P312/S116 wasn't tested...

Grave 5: ydna R1b1b2 U106-, mtdna I1, 35-50yo, no grave goods, bone age n.d.
Grave 8: ydna R1b^, mtdna K1, 21-26yo, cup & flake grave goods, bones 2678-2547 BC  

^unable to obtain M269 result

Only three of the bodies had a radiocarbon age, latest given was 2511 BC.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 09:16:41 AM by Arwunbee » Logged

Map of L44 subclade (of U106): http://g.co/maps/9xswy
Heber
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2012, 10:45:45 AM »

great map.  Strange patchy distribution outside the core area of SE France/NW Italy.  Still tend to think it has a vaguely beakerish feel to it, allowing for some moderated dispalcement over the last 4000 years or so.  However, its not obvious what the story is with that one.  I have no idea why the Ulster border area would have a small peak there.  Not an obvious entry point to Ireland from the south.  

I agree, it is a great map. Could it indicate a migration across Northern Italy (Po Valley) and Up the Rhone Valley.
The epicentre appears to be The Puy des Domes or the source of the Loire adjacent to the confluence of the Loire and Rhone.
The western epicentre is the Tagus Valley, hotspot of Megalithism and Origin of the Bell Beakers culture and close proximity to Tartessos and Celtic from the West. The Ireland epicentre is the Erne River Valley and Lakes (Upper and Lower)  and supposed landing spot of the original Celtic settler, the Mythical Heber.:).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:15:36 AM by Heber » Logged

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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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razyn
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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 11:18:02 AM »

It's an interesting map, but I have some questions about what it is mapping.  Isn't it (a) a paragroup, L51* -- rather than the actual ancestral figure (the first bearer of the SNP, and his immediate family)?  And (b) don't the darker blue "epicentres" or hot spots depict current distribution -- as distinguished (when you are discussing almost anything else) from presumed places of origin of this paragroup?

I'm just having a hard time relating the map to the conclusions attributed to it, or assumed to be supported by it (since the said conclusions have antedated this map by some years).  It may be that the broad-brush data in the Myres and Busby studies will be confirmed by better data (based on much longer haplotypes, aDNA and so on).  But they haven't been, yet.  It may also be that the haplotypes currently classified as L51* will lose that asterisk, once some more downstream SNPs are discovered and tested.  That process seems pretty frequent, these days.

[edited to correct M51* to L51*]
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 10:24:21 AM by razyn » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 01:39:20 PM »

It's an interesting map, but I have some questions about what it is mapping.  Isn't it (a) a paragroup, M51* -- rather than the actual ancestral figure (the first bearer of the SNP, and his immediate family)?  And (b) don't the darker blue "epicentres" or hot spots depict current distribution -- as distinguished (when you are discussing almost anything else) from presumed places of origin of this paragroup?

I'm just having a hard time relating the map to the conclusions attributed to it, or assumed to be supported by it (since the said conclusions have antedated this map by some years).  It may be that the broad-brush data in the Myres and Busby studies will be confirmed by better data (based on much longer haplotypes, aDNA and so on).  But they haven't been, yet.  It may also be that the haplotypes currently classified as M51* will lose that asterisk, once some more downstream SNPs are discovered and tested.  That process seems pretty frequent, these days.

These maps are really like the ink blots that shrink use - everyone sees something different.

You are right however, L51* (not M51)is a paragroup. However, even paragroups can give us clues to the overall big picture. Where there is diversity, even SNP diversity, there is age. Certainly SE France has that.
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 01:54:32 PM »

Thanks, Richard.  Did you notice any STR patterns among L51* people? commonalities with WAMH?

As you known, I'm very interested in STR diversity clines, if they can be found. Our ht35 project has some anomalies in the modals through the different phylogenetic layers, as Maliclavelli has pointed out.

I glossed over those quotes in the studies as well. Thank you for bringing them up.


Yes, the obvious one is that in L51* samples, DYS426=13 instead of the WAMH value of 12.

Using Ken's Gen7, I get TMRCA of 2935 BC ± 475 for the living descendants of L51 which would put it in the latter part of the Chasseen time frame. Of course the date should be older when taking into account dead branches.

That is on the cusp of beaker and pre-beaker.  It certainly is interesting in that it indicates that R1b in the form of L51 seems to have taken off in a big way from the same area that P312 seem the oldest.  Of course distribution and frequency does not tell us origin but the patter looks like a starburst from the upper Rhone to me, perhaps very early in the beaker phase.  It may have been an element that still existed and perhaps was a fellow travellor with L11* and P312.  It could actually be a sort of proxy for early P312*. 

 This sort of suggests R1b was in western Europe in the form of L51 around the very start of the beaker period (if not older) and and probably indicates that P312 (and hence L11) then originated there too, perhaps in the same area of SE France.

This distribution is hard to look at without then looking at L23xL51 and wondering how and when the leap was made. I dont have an L23xL51 map handy though.  I recall it was Anatolia, Caususes and SE Europe.   
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 03:18:56 PM »

These are very broad numbers so this is just for an initial look. I used broad territories and groupsing just to just to get the numbers of haplotypes up.  I try to stay away from small groups and short haplotypes.  This is from our FTDNA projects, mostly the Ht35 project.

I'll rework this, but I just used the east/west divide as everything east of Germany, Austria, Cisalpine Gaul in the "east."  I included the Italian peninsula in the east, though, what I call the East Mediterranean. (EDIT: To be clear, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Scandinavia/Finland and N. Italy are in the "west" in my broad categories)

On the scale below, 1.0 = R-P312.

L23xL11 All__________:  Var=1.50 [Linear 36]  (N=181)   
L23xL11 All__________:  Var=1.53 [Mixed 49]  (N=181)   

L23xL11 East________:  Var=1.61 [Mixed 49]  (N=131)   
L23xL11 East________:  Var=1.63 [Linear 36]  (N=131)   

L23xL11 West________:  Var=0.97 [Linear 36]  (N=38)   
L23xL11 West________:  Var=1.13 [Mixed 49]  (N=38)   


We do have L51* folks identified, but I think they are more of a remnant subclade than a scattering.  Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just providing some information.  Will do more.  I need to look up some of the Ysearch IDs associated with the kits.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 10:11:37 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 04:57:34 PM »

These are very broad numbers so this is just for an initial look. I used broad territories and groupsing just to just to get the numbers of haplotypes up.  I try to stay away from small groups and short haplotypes.  This is from our FTDNA projects, mostly the Ht35 project.

I'll rework this, but I just used the east west divide as everything east of Germany, Austria, Cisalpine Gaul east.  I included the Italian peninsula in the east, though, what I call the East Mediterranean.

On the scale below, 1.0 = R-P312.

L23xL11 All__________:  Var=1.50 [Linear 36]  (N=181)   
L23xL11 All__________:  Var=1.53 [Mixed 49]  (N=181)   

L23xL11 East________:  Var=1.61 [Mixed 49]  (N=131)   
L23xL11 East________:  Var=1.63 [Linear 36]  (N=131)   

L23xL11 West________:  Var=0.97 [Linear 36]  (N=38)   
L23xL11 West________:  Var=1.13 [Mixed 49]  (N=38)   


We do have L51* folks identified, but I think they are more of a remnant subclade than a scattering.  Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just providing some information.  Will do more.  I need to look up some of the Ysearch IDs associated with the kits.

By remnant, I agree, they seem to have had success only in S. France and N Italy. Their offspring on the other-hand went in all directions. The fat that France is central to western Europe would explain the similar variance that Busby calculated.
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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2012, 10:10:47 AM »

These are very broad numbers so this is just for an initial look. I used broad territories and groupsing just to just to get the numbers of haplotypes up.  I try to stay away from small groups and short haplotypes.  This is from our FTDNA projects, mostly the Ht35 project.

I'll rework this, but I just used the east/west divide as everything east of Germany, Austria, Cisalpine Gaul in the "east."  I included the Italian peninsula in the east, though, what I call the East Mediterranean. (EDIT: To be clear, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Scandinavia/Finland and N. Italy are in the "west" in my broad categories)

On the scale below, 1.0 = R-P312.

L23xL11 All__________:  Var=1.50 [Linear 36]  (N=181)   
L23xL11 All__________:  Var=1.53 [Mixed 49]  (N=181)   

L23xL11 East________:  Var=1.61 [Mixed 49]  (N=131)   
L23xL11 East________:  Var=1.63 [Linear 36]  (N=131)   

L23xL11 West________:  Var=0.97 [Linear 36]  (N=38)   
L23xL11 West________:  Var=1.13 [Mixed 49]  (N=38)   
...

Here is how what I call Southwest Asia fits in.  I don't really have long haplotypes from the Caucasus.  I tend to assume (which is a mistake) that the Caucasus would be similar to Anatolia and the north of Iran but I really don't know.

L23xL11 SW Asia_____:  Var=1.73 [Mixed 49]  (N=96)   
L23xL11 SW Asia_____:  Var=1.76 [Linear 36]  (N=96)


Here are the folks.  It doesn't look a British Empire, or Irish migrations from the Isles to me. (LOL)

f152972   Afrikyan   R-L23*   Armenia
fM6266   Al Gurg   R-L23*   United Arab Emirates
fM4000   Ali   R-L23*   United Arab Emirates
f186372   Amatuni   R-L23*   Armenia
f162059   Andonian   R-L23*   Turkey
f148828   Bador   R-L23*   Syria
f166327   Barkhordarian   R-L23*   Iran
f185782   Bedrossian   R-L23*   Turkey
f172797   Elchian   R-L23*   Armenia
f191401   Farage   R-L23*   Iraq
f82108   Galstyan   R-L23   Armenia
f147979   Hermes   R-L23   Iraq
f182302   Karapetian   R-L23*   Armenia
f164226   Kassabian   R-L23*   Turkey
fN76689   Khalil   R-L23*   Egypt
f159888   Kubatiev   R-L23**   Russia
f152880   Luguev   R-L23*   Russia
f188022   Manouchehri   R-L23*   Armenia
f149195   Mardakhanian   R-L23*   Turkey
f202985   Murad   R-L23*   Armenia
f185690   Papazian   R-L23*   Turkey
f182456   Papazian-Pehlivanian   R-L23*   Turkey
f172019   Pipilos   R-L23*   Turkey
f186395   Ruben   R-L23*   Russia
f181425   Samuelian   R-L23*   Turkey
fN74713   Tchekidjian   R-L23*   Turkey
f152977   Tersants   R-L23   Armenia
f162122   Vartian   R-L23*   Turkey
f184382   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia
f188757   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Saudi Arabia
f164193   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia
f176676   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia
f164223   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia
f152976   Arghutian   R-L23*   Armenia
f149198   Atabekian   R-L23*   Armenia
fN93606   Irvan   R-L23*   Turkey
f155696   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia
f152975   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia
f149197   zzzUnkName   R-L23   Armenia
f184387   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia
f172963   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia
f174260   Melik-Barkhudaryan   R-L23*   Armenia
f164229   Aprahamian   R-L23*   Turkey
f174262   Beylerian   R-L23*   Turkey
fN91155   Hampian   R-L23*   Turkey
f176794   Hovannisian   R-L23*   Turkey
f128958   Abovyan   R-L23*   Armenia
f181273   Abrahamian   R-L23*   Iran
f185570   Kalantarian   R-L23*   Armenia
f149196   Melik-Yeganian   R-L23*   Armenia
f46468   Ozkubilay   R-L23/L51*   Turkey
f189873   Asbed   R-L23*   Turkey
f131176   Sahadi   R-L23*   Lebanon
f207694   zzzUnkName   R-L23*   Armenia
f184555   Bahlavouni   R-L23*   Turkey
f176679   Boyadjian   R-L23*   Turkey
f184158   Ketendjian   R-L23*   Turkey
f46561   Ketendjian   R-L23*   Armenia
f174245   Melik-Mirzaians   R-L23*   Iran
f155695   Melik-Parsadanyan   R-L23*   Armenia
f184611   Parsadanian   R-L23*   Armenia
fN71759   Anas   R-L23*   Turkey
fN53795   Karakashian   R-L23*   Armenia
f195750   Koundakjian   R-L23/L277   Armenia
f171777   Melik-Baghdassarian   R-L23*   Iran
f213878   Mezdo   R-L23/L277   Turkey
f185783   Selian   R-L23*   Turkey
f202070   Tanoli   R-L23**   Pakistan
f166332   Gulbenk   R-L23*   Armenia
f167776   Markarian   R-L23*   Turkey
f164199   Melik-Adamyan   R-L23*   Armenia
f184026   Al Enezi   R-L23**   Iraq
fN83705   Al Enezi   R-L23**   Iraq
f164210   D'Atabekian   R-L23*   Armenia
f170031   Mangassarian   R-L23*   Armenia
f90492   Barkho   R-L23/L584   Turkey
f166322   Paboudjian   R-L23/L584   Turkey
f183824   Safarian   R-L23/L584   Iran
f178932   Tastan   R-L23/L584   Turkey
f195789   Guloomian   R-L23/L584   Armenia
f182984   Kurdi   R-L23/L584   Armenia
f191405   Philibossian   R-L23/L584   Turkey
f187550   Hablanian   R-L23/L584   Turkey
f166323   Tachjian   R-L23/L584   Turkey
f164200   zzzUnkName   R-L23/L584   Armenia
f184027   Gorgis   R-L23/L584   Iraq
f152974   zzzUnkName   R-L23/L584   Armenia
f168729   Ades   R-L23/L584   Syria
f70052   Ades   R-L23/L584   Syria
f205749   Al-Jeloo   R-L23/L584   Iraq
f213562   David   R-L23/L584   Iraq
f164219   Sinanian   R-L23*   Turkey
f215158   Tavitian   R-L23*   Turkey
fM4014   Saeed   R-L23*   zzCountry
f184381   Melik-Matevosian   R-L23*   Armenia
f222572   Makin   R-L23*   Iran


What do you think?  Have you noticed that our "West" R-L23xL11 numbers are the lowest.... and I'll say the word "significantly" so.  Even though testing penetration is very heavily biased towards Western Europe, our DNA project just don't have that many R-L23xL11 folks.

SW Asia is the oldest - significantly, I think.   However, we should be very cautious.  I don't know if there is a Galatian (SE Europe to Anatolia) possibility in all of this.  Also, The R-L23 xL11 groups above are really a mix of to be determined subclades. We need to peel onion back on them more as they are only a paragroup.  On the other hand, if they are really a series of to be discovered subclades then that implies very high haplogroup diversity.   This is still diversity, be it STRs or high level (old) SNPs.  Higher diversity in a location might be an indicator of age, when you consider everything in context.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 11:07:11 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2012, 12:22:43 PM »

Mikewww writes: “Here are the folks.  It doesn't look a British Empire, or Irish migrations from the Isles to me. (LOL)”

Perhaps you don’t read my posts, perhaps for my bad English, or, if you read them, you  certainly forget them soon. Those people, apart those L584+ who should be excluded because belong to another subclade, are pretty all Armenians, and we should ask ourselves where all these Armenians come from. They probably came from the Balkans and that there were many R-L23 in the Balkans before the separation of Indo-Europeans isn’t strange. This doesn’t exclude that they descend all from the Italian Refugium. Certainly they don’t descend from the Eastern R1b1* with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23, but from the Italian one with YCAII=18-22 or 18-23.
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« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2012, 12:42:14 PM »

Mikewww writes: “Here are the folks.  It doesn't look a British Empire, or Irish migrations from the Isles to me. (LOL)”

Perhaps you don’t read my posts, perhaps for my bad English, or, if you read them, you  certainly forget them soon. Those people, apart those L584+ who should be excluded because belong to another subclade, are pretty all Armenians, and we should ask ourselves where all these Armenians come from. They probably came from the Balkans and that there were many R-L23 in the Balkans before the separation of Indo-Europeans isn’t strange. This doesn’t exclude that they descend all from the Italian Refugium. Certainly they don’t descend from the Eastern R1b1* with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23, but from the Italian one with YCAII=18-22 or 18-23.


Perhaps my posts aren't clear. I think that the Balkan Peninsula is a part of SE Europe. I'm not saying the Galatians is the only alternative, by the way, just an example.
....
SW Asia is the oldest - significantly, I think.   However, we should be very cautious.  I don't know if there is a Galatian (SE Europe to Anatolia) possibility in all of this.  Also, The R-L23 xL11 groups above are really a mix of to be determined subclades. We need to peel onion back on them more as they are only a paragroup.  On the other hand, if they are really a series of to be discovered subclades then that implies very high haplogroup diversity.   This is still diversity, be it STRs or high level (old) SNPs.  Higher diversity in a location might be an indicator of age, when you consider everything in context.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 12:43:09 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2012, 01:13:06 PM »

... On the scale below, 1.0 = R-P312.

L23xL11 All__________:  Var=1.50 [Linear 36]  (N=181)   
L23xL11 All__________:  Var=1.53 [Mixed 49]  (N=181)   

L23xL11 East________:  Var=1.61 [Mixed 49]  (N=131)   
L23xL11 East________:  Var=1.63 [Linear 36]  (N=131)   

L23xL11 West________:  Var=0.97 [Linear 36]  (N=38)   
L23xL11 West________:  Var=1.13 [Mixed 49]  (N=38)   


We do have L51* folks identified, but I think they are more of a remnant subclade than a scattering.  Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just providing some information.  Will do more.  I need to look up some of the Ysearch IDs associated with the kits.

By remnant, I agree, they seem to have had success only in S. France and N Italy. Their offspring on the other-hand went in all directions. The fat that France is central to western Europe would explain the similar variance that Busby calculated.

Here is the quandry on L51*. First of all, I can't find that many of them, let alone with long haplotypes. I only have 17 with 67 STRs or more so I display with caution. I don't think this is conclusive by any means.

As you can see, L51xL11 is more along the STR diversities (potentially ages) of the large L11 subclades.  Not really older than P312 or U152.   We know that L51 happened before L11 (and P312, etc.) but the subclades around today don't look that old.

R-L51xL11___________:  Var=1.09 [Linear 36]  (N=17)
R-L51xL11___________:  Var=1.16 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)


Below is a list of all 26 L51* confirmed people I can find.  You'll see that most of them fit into the varieties "m23-1313-51-A" and "m23-1313-51-B".  They have enough common off-modal markers that I think they are subclades (with to be discovered SNPs) in their own rights.

The second part of the quandry is all of the L51* people in our DNA projects that I've found are 426=13.  All of them. It is not just the modal, it's everything and we know that 426 is very slow. Does anyone know of any 426=12 people?  Are there any in the studies?  A few 426=11 L51* people would be especially important, I think.

A third part of the quandry is, geographically, the group is very scattered - Spain to Iberia to Poland to Yemen.  How do you like that spread?  RRocca has done a nice job of showing there is a frequency affinity to SE France and NW Italy, though.

The two digit numbers to the right of the countries are the GDs at 67 to the L51* modal. The maximum GD is 21, which is not that high relative to P312 or U106 or even L21.

f80593   Abrams   R-L23/L51*   Poland   17   m23-1313-51 *
fM5032   Al Yafie   R-L23/L51*   Yemen   xx   m23-1313-51 *
f111988   Collins   R-L23/L51*   zzCountry   16   m23-1313-51 *
f134706   Collins   R-L23/L51*   Ireland   18   m23-1313-51 *
fE5620   Di Abondantio   R-L23/L51*   Italy   xx   m23-1313-51 *
f148406   Finney   R-L23/L51*   Ireland   14   m23-1313-51 *
f105470   Fogle   R-L23/L51*   Germany   xx   m23-1313-51 *
f197645   Jönsson   R-L23/L51*   Sweden   xx   m23-1313-51 *
fN60919   Lyons   R-L23/L51*   zzCountry   xx   m23-1313-51 *
f46468   Ozkubilay   R-L23/L51*   Turkey   20   m23-1313-51 *
f181881   Romero   R-L23/L51*   Spain   xx   m23-1313-51 *
fE2689   Alvarez   R-L23/L51*   Spain   15   m23-1313-51-A
f97317   Eagleton   R-L23/L51*   Scotland   20   m23-1313-51-A
f132478   Greenlaw   R-L23/L51*   Scotland   21   m23-1313-51-A
f41519   Hooks   R-L23/L51*   zzCountry   18   m23-1313-51-A
f86538   Hooks   R-L23/L51*   zzCountry   18   m23-1313-51-A
f67450   Malysz   R-L23/L51*   zzCountry   17   m23-1313-51-A
f80001   Przewlocki   R-L23/L51*   Poland   13   m23-1313-51-A
fN5273   Russo   R-L23/L51*   Italy   16   m23-1313-51-A
f50168   Soric   R-L23/L51*   Croatia   18   m23-1313-51-A
f143613   Van Tilroe   R-L23/L51*   Netherlands   19   m23-1313-51-A
fE4861   Amstad-Wang   R-L23/L51*   Switzerland   xx   m23-1313-51-B
f49624   Harrell   R-L23/L51*   England   12   m23-1313-51-B
f109760   Illés   R-L23/L51*   Hungary   xx   m23-1313-51-B
fE12456   Lanna   R-L23/L51*   Italy   xx   m23-1313-51-B
f22103   Warner   R-L23/L51*   Germany   14   m23-1313-51-B
 


Yes, Maliclavelli, Italy is included. Is there any way you can get Di Abondantio and Lanna upgraded to 67 markers?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 01:28:52 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2012, 01:33:54 PM »

As I have written here in some thread, I have written to Malagodi, who is in the ht35 Project and has been tested M269+ and L11-, to test L51. He ordered the SNP c/o Igenea, even though I am sure he will be so, and, as I have written to Rich Rocca in private,  it seems to me the most varied so far with DYS19=13 and DYS437=17,  both very slow mutating ones. But Italy is a mine by a genetic point of view, only that they did test themselves.
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