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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #100 on: May 13, 2012, 08:02:43 PM »

Jean L - have you a model in mind?  Your calculations look like you are driving at M269* perhaps being a Balkans thing with L23* perhaps being some sort of off-shoot into Anatolia and the Caucuses (as well as westwards?)   I find that an interesting possibility but would like to see the idea fleshed out a bit.  As I posted eearlier today, there is not a lot of evidence for movement from Anatolia in the crucial period so a movement from SE or east-central Europe from some 'stay home' L23* is intriguing.   
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JeanL
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« Reply #101 on: May 13, 2012, 09:29:42 PM »

Jean L - have you a model in mind?  Your calculations look like you are driving at M269* perhaps being a Balkans thing with L23* perhaps being some sort of off-shoot into Anatolia and the Caucuses (as well as westwards?)   I find that an interesting possibility but would like to see the idea fleshed out a bit.  As I posted eearlier today, there is not a lot of evidence for movement from Anatolia in the crucial period so a movement from SE or east-central Europe from some 'stay home' L23* is intriguing.   

I'm not confident we have enough data to postulate a model at the moment. But, I was looking over the Myres et al(2010) data yesterday, and aside from diversity observations of R1b-M269(xL23), there seems to be an excess of R1b-M269(xL23) and R1b-L23(xL51) in the Balkans.

Slovenia n=102
R1b-M269+ 18
R1b-M269(xL23) 1/18 or 5.55% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 4/18 or 22.22% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 1/4

Croatia n=108
R1b-M269+ 14
R1b-M269(xL23) 0/14 or 0% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 3/14 or 21.43% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 0/3

Serbia n=113
R1b-M269+ 11
R1b-M269(xL23) 5/11 or 45.45% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 1/11 or 9.09% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 5/1 

Herzegovina n=141
R1b-M269+ 4
R1b-M269(xL23) 2/4 or 50% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 2/4 or 50% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 2/2

Macedonia n=79
R1b-M269+ 4
R1b-M269(xL23) 4/4 or 100% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 0/4 or 0% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 4/0


Kosovo n=114
R1b-M269+ 24
R1b-M269(xL23) 9/24 or 37.5% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 13/24 or 54.16% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 9/13

Romanians n=330
R1b-M269+ 40
R1b-M269(xL23) 9/40 or 22.5% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 15/40 or 37.5% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 9/15

Greece n=185
R1b-M269+24
R1b-M269(xL23) 2/24 or 8.33% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 15/24 or 62.5% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 2/15

Crete n=193
R1b-M269+ 33
R1b-M269(xL23) 4/33 or 12.12% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 8/33 or 24.24% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 4/8

Turkey n=611
R1b-M269+ 91
R1b-M269(xL23) 12/91 or 13.19% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 71/91 or 78% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 12/71

Jordan n=222
R1b-M269+ 8
R1b-M269(xL23) 1/8 or 12.5% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 4/8 or 50% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 1/4

Iran n=150
R1b-M269+ 12
 R1b-M269(xL23) 4/12 or 33.33% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 7/12 or 58.33% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 4/7

In the Caucasus the only populations that have R1b-M269(xL23) are the following:

Lezgis n=31
R1b-M269+ 5
R1b-M269(xL23) 1/5 or 20% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 4/5 or 80% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 1/4

Tabasarans n=43
R1b-M269+ 17
R1b-M269(xL23) 1/17 or 5.88% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 16/17 or 94.12% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 1/16

So it seems the Caucasus is heavily R1b-L23(xL51) as a percentage of R1b-M269+ , Anatolia is somewhat similar to the Caucasus in terms of the distribution of R1b-L23(xL51) but has much less R1b-M269(xL23) relative to R1b-M269+ compared to Romanians, Serbians, Macedonians, and Kosovans.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 09:40:22 PM by JeanL » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2012, 01:50:29 PM »

Jean L - have you a model in mind?  Your calculations look like you are driving at M269* perhaps being a Balkans thing with L23* perhaps being some sort of off-shoot into Anatolia and the Caucuses (as well as westwards?)   I find that an interesting possibility but would like to see the idea fleshed out a bit.  As I posted eearlier today, there is not a lot of evidence for movement from Anatolia in the crucial period so a movement from SE or east-central Europe from some 'stay home' L23* is intriguing.   

I'm not confident we have enough data to postulate a model at the moment. But, I was looking over the Myres et al(2010) data yesterday, and aside from diversity observations of R1b-M269(xL23), there seems to be an excess of R1b-M269(xL23) and R1b-L23(xL51) in the Balkans.

Slovenia n=102
R1b-M269+ 18
R1b-M269(xL23) 1/18 or 5.55% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 4/18 or 22.22% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 1/4

Croatia n=108
R1b-M269+ 14
R1b-M269(xL23) 0/14 or 0% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 3/14 or 21.43% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 0/3

Serbia n=113
R1b-M269+ 11
R1b-M269(xL23) 5/11 or 45.45% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 1/11 or 9.09% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 5/1 

Herzegovina n=141
R1b-M269+ 4
R1b-M269(xL23) 2/4 or 50% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 2/4 or 50% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 2/2

Macedonia n=79
R1b-M269+ 4
R1b-M269(xL23) 4/4 or 100% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 0/4 or 0% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 4/0


Kosovo n=114
R1b-M269+ 24
R1b-M269(xL23) 9/24 or 37.5% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 13/24 or 54.16% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 9/13

Romanians n=330
R1b-M269+ 40
R1b-M269(xL23) 9/40 or 22.5% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 15/40 or 37.5% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 9/15

Greece n=185
R1b-M269+24
R1b-M269(xL23) 2/24 or 8.33% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 15/24 or 62.5% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 2/15

Crete n=193
R1b-M269+ 33
R1b-M269(xL23) 4/33 or 12.12% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 8/33 or 24.24% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 4/8

Turkey n=611
R1b-M269+ 91
R1b-M269(xL23) 12/91 or 13.19% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 71/91 or 78% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 12/71

Jordan n=222
R1b-M269+ 8
R1b-M269(xL23) 1/8 or 12.5% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 4/8 or 50% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 1/4

Iran n=150
R1b-M269+ 12
 R1b-M269(xL23) 4/12 or 33.33% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 7/12 or 58.33% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 4/7

In the Caucasus the only populations that have R1b-M269(xL23) are the following:

Lezgis n=31
R1b-M269+ 5
R1b-M269(xL23) 1/5 or 20% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 4/5 or 80% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 1/4

Tabasarans n=43
R1b-M269+ 17
R1b-M269(xL23) 1/17 or 5.88% of R1b-M269+
R1b-L23(xL51) 16/17 or 94.12% of R1b-M269+

ratio of R1b-M269(xL23) to R1b-L23(xL51) 1/16

So it seems the Caucasus is heavily R1b-L23(xL51) as a percentage of R1b-M269+ , Anatolia is somewhat similar to the Caucasus in terms of the distribution of R1b-L23(xL51) but has much less R1b-M269(xL23) relative to R1b-M269+ compared to Romanians, Serbians, Macedonians, and Kosovans.


That is very interesting.  I think there will probably be an attempt to explain this trend away and the sample is tiny but it appears to me that judging on those stats, movement from Anatolia and the Caucuses might well have reduced the proportion of M269XL23 relative to L23 rather than raised it.   After reading up a bit on copper and early Bronze Age Turkey (I had prevously only really looked into the Neolithic and early copper age) it was a pretty fragmented place divided into lots of little zones and lacked a tradition of very widespread trading and elite contact right up until nearly the middle of the 2nd millenium when it started to homogenise and establish a network of contacts within and beyond.  Its pretty clear to me that there is absolutely nothing in the pre-beaker Bronze Age of Anatolia (I think that is their local Bronze Age I) that suggests any sort of scenario for an Anatolian outpouring west etc.

Its an interesting observation that proportinally M269* is much more common in SE Europe than SW Asia
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2012, 05:55:41 PM »

So is there anything about these M269* folks.  I heard it suggested that some were Jewish.  That would complicate things. 
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JeanL
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« Reply #104 on: May 14, 2012, 06:49:26 PM »

So is there anything about these M269* folks.  I heard it suggested that some were Jewish.  That would complicate things. 

Some of the R1b-M269(xL23) folks from the ht35 project are said to be Jews. However, the data I provided was from the Myres et al(2010) study. AFAIK Jewish could be a possibility for Romania, although I doubt all 9 people that have R1b-M269(xL23) would be Jews. Given that the samples were collected from Romania, the probability is that those were likely ethnic Romanians. This is what I found about the Jewish population in Romania nowadays:


Quote
The situation for the Jews of Romania later improved, but the community has shrunk, mainly through aliyah - Today only about 6000 Jews remain in Romania, primarily in urban areas.[69]

source

Serbia, Macedonia, Kosovo are very likely ethnic Serbians, Macedonians, and Albanians respectively.

Something interesting is that R1b-M269(xL23) peaks in Kosovo (i.e. It is 9/114 or 7.89%), which is inhabited by Albanians who speak Gheg Albanian.

Here is the interesting part about Albanian:

Quote
The Albanian language is a distinct Indo-European language that does not belong to any other existing branch; the other extant Indo-European isolate is Armenian.

It would be awesome to get some R1b-M269(xL23) haplotypes from Kosovo, or Albania, unfortunately Myres et al(2010) did not publish them. Any Haplotype data from Albanians would be very welcomed.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 06:56:52 PM by JeanL » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #105 on: May 15, 2012, 03:18:01 PM »

Is there any hope of an SNP between L51 and P312 that could split L51 into a line ancestral to P312 and another than is parallel?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #106 on: May 15, 2012, 03:18:35 PM »

Is there any hope of an SNP between L51 and L11 that could split L51 into a line ancestral to L11 and another that is parallel?
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JeanL
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« Reply #107 on: May 15, 2012, 04:01:05 PM »

I'm not sure why the area of the modern day French Basque Country(Iparralde) is not shown as having R1b-L51 in the link posted by the OP.

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.png

When according to Table-S2 of Busby et al(2011) there are 2 out of 6 French Basques that are R1b-M269(xS127)

Here are the haplotypes:

DYS19 DYS389I DYS389b DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439

HGDP00511 BAS M269(xS127) 14 12 16 24 11 13 12 15 12 13
HGDP00515 BAS M269(xS127) 14 13 17 25 11 13 12 15 12 12
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 04:01:47 PM by JeanL » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2012, 04:08:59 PM »

I'm not sure why the area of the modern day French Basque Country(Iparralde) is not shown as having R1b-L51 in the link posted by the OP.

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.png

When according to Table-S2 of Busby et al(2011) there are 2 out of 6 French Basques that are R1b-M269(xS127)

Here are the haplotypes:

DYS19 DYS389I DYS389b DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439

HGDP00511 BAS M269(xS127) 14 12 16 24 11 13 12 15 12 13
HGDP00515 BAS M269(xS127) 14 13 17 25 11 13 12 15 12 12

It is very likely that they are R-L150+ and probably come from elsewhere.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

JeanL
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« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2012, 04:30:25 PM »

I'm not sure why the area of the modern day French Basque Country(Iparralde) is not shown as having R1b-L51 in the link posted by the OP.

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.png

When according to Table-S2 of Busby et al(2011) there are 2 out of 6 French Basques that are R1b-M269(xS127)

Here are the haplotypes:

DYS19 DYS389I DYS389b DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439

HGDP00511 BAS M269(xS127) 14 12 16 24 11 13 12 15 12 13
HGDP00515 BAS M269(xS127) 14 13 17 25 11 13 12 15 12 12

It is very likely that they are R-L150+ and probably come from elsewhere.

How so? After all, R1b-L23(xL11) was also found by the Martinez-Cruz et al(2012) in French Basques. In Zuberoa(n=53) there was a 1-R1b-L23(xP311) and in Labourd(n=44) there was another one. Plus the six samples used by Busby et al(2011) come from the HGDP database, so I’m sure that they checked that the 24 French Basque had 4 Grandparents born in the French Basque Country.

PS: These are the two haplotypes in with 15 STRs typed from Table-S3

Markers are in this order: DYS19  DYS389I  DYS389II  DYS390  DYS391  DYS392  DYS393  DYS437  DYS438  DYS439 DYS448  DYS456  DYS458  DYS635  Y-GATA-H4

HGDP00511 BAS M269 14 12 16 24 11 13 12 15 12 13 19 15 16 23 11      
HGDP00515 BAS M269 14 13 17 25 11 13 12 15 12 12 19 15 16 23 13      
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 04:34:42 PM by JeanL » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2012, 04:55:21 PM »

I still think RR's L51* map has been underestimated in its value.  I understand that this might be mainly a parallel L51* line but the variance is early and it may have been a fellow traveler along the western beaker routes, possibly in tandem with other lines.  It clearly has a beaker-like distribution but interestingly it is predominantly a western beaker distribution and other than one pocket it does not include much of Germany and the later northern fringe of the beaker network.  It looks rather like it in some way echoes and perhaps provides a snapshot of a very early phase of beaker spread and exploration before it reached its later extent.  Given that the L11* phase is not well preserved this might be the best we have as a surrogate for that if you like -an indirect on tangential way of looking at what R1b was doing in western Europe around the time of the rise of L11.  This L51* group does look somewhat like an early beaker distribution, predominantly western but putting out feelers into what were to become important beaker nodes (allowing for some displacement over the last 5000 years). 

If this is an indirect echo of the early phase of beakers in Europe and perhaps L51 was the line that did the very first period of exploration in the period 3000-2600BC then where did their L23* ancestors live?  I understand that the L51* group may be predominantly an early parallel line to L11* but all the same they may have been fellow travelers.  So, where are the L23* people with the STRs closest to this L51* group (the ones seem as not directly ancestral to L11) located?  I really think a trick may be being missed here.  They may not be the ancestors of L11 but they were clearly following the early beaker route and probably were moving with the ancestors of L11.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2012, 05:09:01 PM »

Look at RR's map of L-51 and look at this map of beaker dating

http://what-when-how.com/ancient-europe/bell-beakers-from-west-to-east-consequences-of-agriculture-5000-2000-b-c-ancient-europe/

Now its not totally uncontroversial as Muller and Willigen by throwing out dates not based on human bone etc left some areas bereft of dates, perhaps making their local beaker culture look younger than it was (as has recently been argued for Holland) but look at the general picture.  Even down to some of the islands in the west Med.  L51* has a fairly uncanny similarity even down to an early offshoot east.  I will try and did up another map.  I suspect that this L51* travelled with now-lost L11* clades and established these routes.  So the L51* map may be giving us a snapshot of the earlier phases of the bell beaker network c. 2600BC as it was just beginning to explore beyond its core in the west Med.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2012, 05:38:18 PM »

As for the strange Ulster border blog in Ireland, the only source that springs to mind that is within that band is gold.  There is a beaker gold source in the Mournes on the eastern periphery of the blob and suspected gold sources in the Bronze Age included the Sperrin mountains on the northern edge of the blob and there is apparently a big gold source at the west end of the blob around the mountain of Croagh Patrick on the western edge of the blob.  I believe gold was panned rather than anything else.  It could of course be a much later fluke but that is all I can think of if a one-phase early beaker phase is considered.  There are quite a lot of beaker period wedge tombs in that area although not as many as a little further north in the Sperrins. I would like to see a map of Copper Age gold sources in Europe and compare.  Maybe the L51* guys were the gold specialists and liked their bling :0)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 05:40:51 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2012, 05:52:20 PM »

I still think RR's L51* map has been underestimated in its value.  I understand that this might be mainly a parallel L51* line but the variance is early and it may have been a fellow traveler along the western beaker routes, possibly in tandem with other lines.  ....   This L51* group does look somewhat like an early beaker distribution, predominantly western but putting out feelers into what were to become important beaker nodes (allowing for some displacement over the last 5000 years). 

If this is an indirect echo of the early phase of beakers in Europe and perhaps L51 was the line that did the very first period of exploration in the period 3000-2600BC then where did their L23* ancestors live?  I understand that the L51* group may be predominantly an early parallel line to L11* but all the same they may have been fellow travelers.  ...
I agree, the L51* 426=13 guys are important, even if they do NOT represent a variety of L51* lineages. The location of a second cousin may help us find the g-grandfather.  Given P312's high diversity in the same region (lower Rhone), something big must have happened there.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2012, 06:02:18 PM »

I still think RR's L51* map has been underestimated in its value.  I understand that this might be mainly a parallel L51* line but the variance is early and it may have been a fellow traveler along the western beaker routes, possibly in tandem with other lines.  ....   This L51* group does look somewhat like an early beaker distribution, predominantly western but putting out feelers into what were to become important beaker nodes (allowing for some displacement over the last 5000 years).  

If this is an indirect echo of the early phase of beakers in Europe and perhaps L51 was the line that did the very first period of exploration in the period 3000-2600BC then where did their L23* ancestors live?  I understand that the L51* group may be predominantly an early parallel line to L11* but all the same they may have been fellow travelers.  ...
I agree, the L51* 426=13 guys are important, even if they do NOT represent a variety of L51* lineages. The location of a second cousin may help us find the g-grandfather.  Given P312's high diversity in the same region (lower Rhone), something big must have happened there.


What I find most interesting is that it is like a snapshot of the bell beaker complex around 2700/2600BC before it extended further north (Ulster border blob aside) and east or at least it was only putting its first tentative feelers out.  I am not saying it was an L51* phase, just that L51* seems to have been included in this phase but excluded from later phases of expansion c. 2600-2300BC.  That branch of the clan maybe still had some control on the beaker network in the beginning, perhaps sharing with the L11-ancestral branch of L51* and perhaps L11* too but it lost its importance.  I was only kidding about the possibility of a clan who were specialising more in the gold line but I wonder... Its a different technology and technique from copper in terms of obtaining it and its not that crazy to see different lineages dominating different niches of the network.   I saw a map of possible prehistoric gold sources recently but I cant recall where, probably in Jean M's paper collection.    
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 06:05:31 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2012, 06:40:28 PM »


It's interesting to see that much closely reasoned discussion of this in one place, but it begs several questions.  What if Muller and Willigen were basically mistaken (as you hinted in the comment about evidence they chose to deselect)?  That paper is already eleven years old -- does anybody now believe what they thought about haplogroups, in 2001?  What if wrist guards weren't really for archery, but functioned more as badges?  What if not only Pots aren't People, but neither are Beakers?  And so on.

I liked the crazy stuff about gold merchants.  What if Beakers (and all that they imply, about metals, wrist guards, buttons and whatnot) were restricted or controlled in some way, among a sort of international trading cartel, or mafia (in the uncapitalized, non-Sicilian sense)?  I'm thinking about a bumper sticker I used to see, maybe in Austin TX:  "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil; for I am the baddest S.O.B. in the valley."

I can imagine a bunch of guys who were part of that sort of business having a pretty limited pool of Y-DNA.  And some boats.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 11:53:10 PM by razyn » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2012, 08:04:31 PM »

I'm not sure why the area of the modern day French Basque Country(Iparralde) is not shown as having R1b-L51 in the link posted by the OP.

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003.png

When according to Table-S2 of Busby et al(2011) there are 2 out of 6 French Basques that are R1b-M269(xS127)

Here are the haplotypes:

DYS19 DYS389I DYS389b DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439

HGDP00511 BAS M269(xS127) 14 12 16 24 11 13 12 15 12 13
HGDP00515 BAS M269(xS127) 14 13 17 25 11 13 12 15 12 12

It is very likely that they are R-L150+ and probably come from elsewhere.

How so? After all, R1b-L23(xL11) was also found by the Martinez-Cruz et al(2012) in French Basques. In Zuberoa(n=53) there was a 1-R1b-L23(xP311) and in Labourd(n=44) there was another one. Plus the six samples used by Busby et al(2011) come from the HGDP database, so I’m sure that they checked that the 24 French Basque had 4 Grandparents born in the French Basque Country.

PS: These are the two haplotypes in with 15 STRs typed from Table-S3

Markers are in this order: DYS19  DYS389I  DYS389II  DYS390  DYS391  DYS392  DYS393  DYS437  DYS438  DYS439 DYS448  DYS456  DYS458  DYS635  Y-GATA-H4

HGDP00511 BAS M269 14 12 16 24 11 13 12 15 12 13 19 15 16 23 11      
HGDP00515 BAS M269 14 13 17 25 11 13 12 15 12 12 19 15 16 23 13      


According to the Busby tables, 100% of their L51+ French Basque samples were also L11+.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 08:58:05 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2012, 08:22:10 PM »


It's interesting to see that much closely reasoned discussion of this in one place, but it begs several questions.  What if Muller and Willigen were basically mistaken (as you hinted in the comment about evidence they chose to deselect)?  That paper is already eleven years old -- does anybody now believe what they thought about haplogroups, in 2001?  What if wrist guards weren't really for archery, but functioned more as badges?  What if not only Pots aren't People, but neither are Beakers?  And so on.

I liked the crazy stuff about gold merchants.  What if Beakers (and all that they imply, about metals, wrist guards, buttons and whatnot) were restricted or controlled in some way, among a sort of international trading cartel, or mafia (in the uncapitalized, non-Sicilian sense)?  I'm thinking about a bumper sticker I used to see, maybe in Austin TX:  "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil; for I am the meanest S.O.B. in the valley."

I can imagine a bunch of guys who were part of that sort of business having a pretty limited pool of Y-DNA.  And some boats.

I am a big proponent of Bell Beaker military movements being the main reason for their spread. The importance they gave their weaponry (bows, knives, axes) is obvious in graves and stelae. Due to the relatively late date of their appearance, I can't really see a genetic advantage, unless of course it's the height advantage they had over their contemporaries/opponents. Besides, do you know of any army in the world that asks recruits if they are lactose intolerant?
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« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2012, 09:03:13 PM »

According to the Busby tables, 100% of their L51+ samples are also L11+.

Check Table-S2 again, I can post a screenshot if you want me to.

There are a total of 6 French Basques that were sampled by Busby et al(2011), all of them come from HGDP. Here are their SNPs in the 10 STRs format, which is found in Table-S2:


HGDP00511 BAS M269(xS127) 14 12 16 24 11 13 12 15 12 13
HGDP00515 BAS M269(xS127) 14 13 17 25 11   13 12 15 12 12
HGDP00512 BAS S116(xS145,S28) 13 13 16 23 10 13 13 15 12 12
HGDP00533 BAS S21(xS29) 14 13 16 24 10 13 13 15 12 12
HGDP00519 BAS S28 14 13 17 24 10 13 13 15   12 11
HGDP00522 BAS S29 14 13 16 24 11 13 14 15   12 12

Last time I checked M269(xS127) was M269(xL11), so it is impossible that 100% of them are L11+. In fact in Table-S1 it clearly shows that 2/6 or 0.3333 are M269(xS127), and that 4/6 or 0.6667 are S127*. You might have gotten confused with column-H which indicates the overall frequency of R1b-M269 in the population, in which case all French Basque are R1b-M269+, and that is why it says 1.000.

Now that I think of it, I think there might be a typo on Table-S1, and Table-S2, I think that M269(xS127) should in fact be M269(xS167), if you look at it, S167(column-I), and M269(xS127) (column-J) add up to the total value of R1b-M269(column-H) in the populations, which means that it is likely a typo, and that column-J is in fact M269(xS167) or M269(xL51). This changes a lot of things. So this means that the two Basques are either L23 or L150, as they are ancestral to L51.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 09:23:36 PM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2012, 09:25:54 PM »

According to the Busby tables, 100% of their L51+ samples are also L11+.

Check Table-S2 again, I can post a screenshot if you want me to.

There are a total of 6 French Basques that were sampled by Busby et al(2011), all of them come from HGDP. Here are their SNPs in the 10 STRs format, which is found in Table-S2:


HGDP00511 BAS M269(xS127) 14 12 16 24 11 13 12 15 12 13
HGDP00515 BAS M269(xS127) 14 13 17 25 11   13 12 15 12 12
HGDP00512 BAS S116(xS145,S28) 13 13 16 23 10 13 13 15 12 12
HGDP00533 BAS S21(xS29) 14 13 16 24 10 13 13 15 12 12
HGDP00519 BAS S28 14 13 17 24 10 13 13 15   12 11
HGDP00522 BAS S29 14 13 16 24 11 13 14 15   12 12

Last time I checked M269(xS127) was M269(xL11), so it is impossible that 100% of them are L11+. In fact in Table-S1 it clearly shows that 2/6 or 0.3333 are M269(xS127), and that 4/6 or 0.6667 are S127*. You might have gotten confused with column-H which indicates the overall frequency of R1b-M269 in the population, in which case all French Basque are R1b-M269+, and that is why it says 1.000.

Now that I think of it, I think there might be a typo on the Table-S1, and Table-S2, I think that M269(xS127) should in fact be M269(xS167), if you look at it, S167(column-I), and M269(xS127) (column-J) add up to the total value of R1b-M269(column-H) in the populations, which means that it is likely a typo, and that column-J is in fact M269(xS167) or M269(xL51). This changes a lot of things. So this means that the two Basques are either L23 or L150, as they are ancestral to L51.

They are saying that .667 of their samples are R-S167+(L51+). They are also saying that .667 of their samples are R-S127+(L11+). Therefore, they are saying that all of their L51+ samples are also L11+, which is obvious based on the fact that all four L11+ samples are accounted for (one S116*, one S21*, one S28, and one S29). By saying all of that, they are saying the two M269(xS127) samples are negative for L51.

Now, if they made an error in their labels, all bets are off.
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« Reply #120 on: May 15, 2012, 09:46:55 PM »


They are saying that .667 of their samples are R-S167+(L51+). They are also saying that .667 of their samples are R-S127+(L11+). Therefore, they are saying that all of their L51+ samples are also L11+, which is obvious based on the fact that all four L11+ samples are accounted for (one S116*, one S21*, one S28, and one S29). By saying all of that, they are saying the two M269(xS127) samples are negative for L51.

Now, if they made an error in their labels, all bets are off.

I agree with you, it must be a typo. It just doesn't make sense that 0.667 are S167 or L51, and only 0.333 are M269(xS127) which is equivalent to M269(xL11), while 0.667 are S127* or L11+. The thing here is that S127 is L11, so I think that there is definitely a typo, and that Column-J is not M269(xS127), but M269(xS167). In fact if you look at it column J(R-M269(xL51)) and column-I(R-L51) add up to the total frequency of M269 in the populations, which makes a whole lot of sense, given that if one adds M269(xL51) and L51 ones should get the total frequency of M269 in any given population. 

Actually after reviewing the data more profoundly, I realized that M269(xS127) is in fact M269(xL11), it just so happens than in populations where 100% of the S167/L51 is also S127/L11 (i.e. French Basques, etc) the M269(xL11) also represents M269(xL51).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 10:04:58 PM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #121 on: May 15, 2012, 10:09:03 PM »


They are saying that .667 of their samples are R-S167+(L51+). They are also saying that .667 of their samples are R-S127+(L11+). Therefore, they are saying that all of their L51+ samples are also L11+, which is obvious based on the fact that all four L11+ samples are accounted for (one S116*, one S21*, one S28, and one S29). By saying all of that, they are saying the two M269(xS127) samples are negative for L51.

Now, if they made an error in their labels, all bets are off.

I agree with you, it must be a typo. It just doesn't make sense that 0.667 are S167 or L51, and only 0.333 are M269(xS127) which is equivalent to M269(xL11), while 0.667 are S127* or L11+. The thing here is that S127 is L11, so I think that there is definitely a typo, and that Column-J is not M269(xS127), but M269(xS167). In fact if you look at it column J(R-M269(xL51)) and column-I(R-L51) add up to the total frequency of M269 in the populations, which makes a whole lot of sense, given that if one adds M269(xL51) and L51 ones should get the total frequency of M269 in any given population. 

Actually after reviewing the data more profoundly, I realized that M269(xS127) is in fact M269(xL11), it just so happens than in populations where 100% of the S167/L51 is also S127/L11 (i.e. French Basques, etc) the M269(xL11) also represents M269(xL51).

I'm still not getting why you think it is impossible for those two samples to be something like L23+?
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« Reply #122 on: May 15, 2012, 10:27:55 PM »


They are saying that .667 of their samples are R-S167+(L51+). They are also saying that .667 of their samples are R-S127+(L11+). Therefore, they are saying that all of their L51+ samples are also L11+, which is obvious based on the fact that all four L11+ samples are accounted for (one S116*, one S21*, one S28, and one S29). By saying all of that, they are saying the two M269(xS127) samples are negative for L51.

Now, if they made an error in their labels, all bets are off.

I agree with you, it must be a typo. It just doesn't make sense that 0.667 are S167 or L51, and only 0.333 are M269(xS127) which is equivalent to M269(xL11), while 0.667 are S127* or L11+. The thing here is that S127 is L11, so I think that there is definitely a typo, and that Column-J is not M269(xS127), but M269(xS167). In fact if you look at it column J(R-M269(xL51)) and column-I(R-L51) add up to the total frequency of M269 in the populations, which makes a whole lot of sense, given that if one adds M269(xL51) and L51 ones should get the total frequency of M269 in any given population. 

Actually after reviewing the data more profoundly, I realized that M269(xS127) is in fact M269(xL11), it just so happens than in populations where 100% of the S167/L51 is also S127/L11 (i.e. French Basques, etc) the M269(xL11) also represents M269(xL51).

I'm still not getting why you think it is impossible for those two samples to be something like L23+?

I got thrown off, because of the fact that in the case where 100% of S167 is also S127, then R-M269(xS127) is also R-M269(xS167). So for example in case of the French Basques the 2 R-M269(xL11) haplotypes are also R-M269(xL51), so they are likely either L23+, or L150+.
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« Reply #123 on: May 16, 2012, 01:42:31 AM »

JeanL says: “How so? After all, R1b-L23(xL11) was also found by the Martinez-Cruz et al(2012) in French Basques. In Zuberoa(n=53) there was a 1-R1b-L23(xP311) and in Labourd(n=44) there was another one. Plus the six samples used by Busby et al(2011) come from the HGDP database, so I’m sure that they checked that the 24 French Basque had 4 Grandparents born in the French Basque Country.
PS: These are the two haplotypes in with 15 STRs typed from Table-S3”.


Even though the data of these Basques are incomplete, it seems that from YHRD data nothing brings to Basques. For this I said that these haplotypes “come from elsewhere”.
2 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 >>
2 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 >>
1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 19 23 12 >>
1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 >>
1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 12,14 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 13 >>
2 of 393 Warsaw, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
2 of 766 Australia [Aboriginal] Australian Aboriginal Oceania / Australia
1 of 102 Oran, Algeria [Arab] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa
1 of 832 Sverdlovsk Region, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Asia
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 277 Antwerpen, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 12 28 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 19 15 17 23 12 >>
1 14 12 28 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 20 16 16 23 13 >>
1 14 12 28 24 11 13 12 12,14 12 13 15 19 16 17 23 12 >>
1 of 637 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 109 Ceará,Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 31 Dogu, Central Anatolia, Turkey [Kurdish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia

« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 01:44:47 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #124 on: May 16, 2012, 08:48:31 AM »


Even though the data of these Basques are incomplete, it seems that from YHRD data nothing brings to Basques. For this I said that these haplotypes “come from elsewhere”.
2 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 >>
2 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 >>
1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 19 23 12 >>
1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 19 16 16 23 11 >>
1 14 13 30 25 11 13 12 12,14 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 13 >>
2 of 393 Warsaw, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
2 of 766 Australia [Aboriginal] Australian Aboriginal Oceania / Australia
1 of 102 Oran, Algeria [Arab] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa
1 of 832 Sverdlovsk Region, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Asia
1 of 249 Çukurova, Turkey [Turk] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 277 Antwerpen, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 12 28 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 19 15 17 23 12 >>
1 14 12 28 24 11 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 20 16 16 23 13 >>
1 14 12 28 24 11 13 12 12,14 12 13 15 19 16 17 23 12 >>
1 of 637 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 109 Ceará,Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 31 Dogu, Central Anatolia, Turkey [Kurdish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia

Well the Basque haplotypes aren’t incomplete, they simply weren’t typed for DYS385. Nonetheless I went to the YHRD and there aren’t any exact matches for any of the two haplotypes. So you likely searched partial matches using less than the 15 markers. Also the haplotype data for the Basques populations found in YHDR comes from few studies(i.e. Guipuzcoa 19 haplotypes, Biscay 87 haplotypes, Alava 33,  autochthonous Spanish Basque 168 haplotypes), none of which have sampled in the French Basque Country.  In the Martinez-Cruz et al(2012) study one can see that while R-L23+ appears sporadically amongst French Basques, it doesn’t appear amongst Spanish Basques. 

I presume when you suggest they came from elsewhere, you are referring to the historical era. May I remind you, that these are HGDP Basques samples, so they are likely ethnic French Basques, if these two individuals are partly something else that came recently(i.e. In the last 2000 years) it would still show in their autosomal profile, and if you have been paying attention to the ADMIXTURE runs done by several studies, you know that all French Basques look about the same in terms of ADMIXTURE components, so there are no outliers. I any case, of course I believe that unless R-L150+ or R-L23+ originated in the French Basque country, it must have come from elsewhere, now to suggest that it came from elsewhere during the historical era based on the data thus far  collected is more a wishful thinking than any actual theory. The fact is, that R-L23+(xL51) does appear amongst French Basques, however due to the small sample sizes used by Busby et al(2011), he happened to gather 2 R-L23+(xL51)  in a sample of 6, which put the frequency at 33%. We know from studies that used bigger samples sizes that the frequency of R-L23+(xL51) in French Basques is much less than that, usually in the order of 1/50.

PS: The closest haplotype to this French Basques haplotype:

French Basque-1:

14 12 28 24 11 13 12 12 13 15 19 15 16 23 11     

Is

14 12 28 24 11 13 12 12 13 15 19 15 17 23 12

Which is from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America, Brazil. They differ by 2 mutations.

French Basque-2:

14 13 30 25 11 13 12 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 13

The closest match is:

14 13 30 25 11 13 12 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 13

Which is from Antwerpen, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe. They differ by 1 mutation.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 09:07:38 AM by JeanL » Logged
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