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eochaidh
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« on: April 19, 2012, 12:46:40 PM »

I may have asked this before, and I think I have seen percentages for R1b in Auverngne (31%/52%), but what are the latest numbers for L21 in Auvergne.

I have an interest in this because my maternal grandmother was a French-Canadian whose father's line, Coursolle, is from Auvergne. Pierre Coursolle, born c.1675 Marchastel, Cantal, Auvergne, France. All of my other French-Canadian lines that I've traced are from Brittany, Normandy and Saintonge/Aunis, so this Auvergnat line is interesting.

Auvergne was a Celtic stonghold. The King of the Arverni Tribe, Vercingetorix, is one of the most famous Celtic leaders to fight the Romans.

Sorry if I've missed this.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 12:49:24 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2012, 01:58:06 PM »

I may have asked this before, and I think I have seen percentages for R1b in Auverngne (31%/52%), but what are the latest numbers for L21 in Auvergne.

I have an interest in this because my maternal grandmother was a French-Canadian whose father's line, Coursolle, is from Auvergne. Pierre Coursolle, born c.1675 Marchastel, Cantal, Auvergne, France. All of my other French-Canadian lines that I've traced are from Brittany, Normandy and Saintonge/Aunis, so this Auvergnat line is interesting.

Auvergne was a Celtic stonghold. The King of the Arverni Tribe, Vercingetorix, is one of the most famous Celtic leaders to fight the Romans.

Sorry if I've missed this.
I didn't realize that Auvergne was a Celtic stronghold.

Hopefully, I'm giving Eupedia the proper credit, but I took his map using Busby's data and added back the higher frequency in SE France that he removed.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/Haplogroup_R-L21_Frequency_Map.jpg

There is an higher L21 frequency spot just south and southeast of Auvergne in Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur and Languedoc-Roussillon

I don't know if this higher L21 frequency spot is just a blip, as Eupedia must think it is, or is very meaningful. It is an important area as it includes the mouth of the Rhone and is just west of the Alps, where the Danube and Rhine are sourced.  Richard Rocca thinks this is from where elder brother U152 may have entered Italy.

If you want to backup in time, its also the eastern portion of what is considered the Franco-Cantabrian refugium. Stephen Oppenheimer considers my type of R1b (Ruy R1b-13) as having originated here and as having migrated to Wales during the Mesolithic - not that I agree with him. Maybe he is right on the geographies. Who knows?  (BTW, I am not "whoknows" even if I like that question.)


« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 02:26:31 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 02:20:34 PM »

I may have asked this before, and I think I have seen percentages for R1b in Auverngne (31%/52%), but what are the latest numbers for L21 in Auvergne.

I have an interest in this because my maternal grandmother was a French-Canadian whose father's line, Coursolle, is from Auvergne. Pierre Coursolle, born c.1675 Marchastel, Cantal, Auvergne, France. All of my other French-Canadian lines that I've traced are from Brittany, Normandy and Saintonge/Aunis, so this Auvergnat line is interesting.

Auvergne was a Celtic stonghold. The King of the Arverni Tribe, Vercingetorix, is one of the most famous Celtic leaders to fight the Romans.

Sorry if I've missed this.

As Mike, mentioned, the only published data for Auvergne is the Ramos-Luis (2009) data that was subsequently used by Busby (2011). Out of 89 samples, 4.5% were L21+.

The overall R1b frequency in Auvergne was 52.8%, with the most common being P312(xL21,xU152) with 22.5% followed by U152 with 16.9%.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 02:20:43 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2012, 02:39:19 PM »

Thanks to both of you. 4.5% isn't much, but it seems to match with much of Gaul and northern Iberia.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 02:46:51 PM »

I didn't realize that Auvergne was a Celtic stronghold.

Hopefully, I'm giving Eupedia the proper credit, but I took his map using Busby's data and added back the higher frequency in SE France that he removed.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/Haplogroup_R-L21_Frequency_Map.jpg

There is an higher L21 frequency spot just south and southeast of Auvergne in Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur and Languedoc-Roussillon

I don't know if this higher L21 frequency spot is just a blip, as Eupedia must think it is, or is very meaningful. It is an important area as it includes the mouth of the Rhone and is just west of the Alps, where the Danube and Rhine are sourced.  Richard Rocca thinks this is from where elder brother U152 may have entered Italy.

If you want to backup in time, its also the eastern portion of what is considered the Franco-Cantabrian refugium. Stephen Oppenheimer considers my type of R1b (Ruy R1b-13) as having originated here and as having migrated to Wales during the Mesolithic - not that I agree with him. Maybe he is right on the geographies. Who knows?  (BTW, I am not "whoknows" even if I like that question.)

New map date Sept. 2011 of the haplogroup R1b-L21 (S145) on Eurpedia.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

He used the "data from Busby and Myres, but compare it to other data available here and there and cut out inconsistencies, especially if they are based on a small sample size (under 100)." See post number 4.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26785-New-map-of-haplogroup-R1b-L21-(S145)

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
eochaidh
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2012, 08:21:19 PM »

Thanks. So, it looks like Auvergne is in the 5-10% range for L21.
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palamede
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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2012, 09:31:02 AM »

I am not confident in the results of Ramos-Luis et al-2009 with the French blood institute.

The choice of samples were probably done by technicians of the blood institute and I am not confident to their care about the choice.
Auvergne and other French regions needs to be checked again for verification by independant and confirmed scientifics.

From http://u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6%3Adeeper-look-ramos-luis-et-al-2009-study&catid=1&Itemid=57

Auvergne results published by Ramos-Luis et al. n=89
E*(xE1b1b)  2,25% E-M78 3,37% E-M81 5,62% E-M123 1,12% Total E=12,36%
G 9% J*(xJ1a,J2) 3,37% J2 7,87% total J=11, 25% T 3,37%
Total E+G+J+T=36% Possible, but needs to be verify
 I 4,5% K(xL,N1c,P,T) 1,12% R1a 5,62%
R1b-M269* 31,46% R1b-sry2627 1,12% R1b-U106 3,37% R1b_U152  16,85% Total R1b=52,8%

If Auvergne results are surprising, Ile-De-France are certainly wrong

Ile De France  results published by Ramos-Luis et al. n=91
E*(xE1b1b) 11% E-M78 4,4% E-M81 5,5% E-M123 1,1% Total E=22%
G 4,4% J*(xJ1a,J2) 1% J2 5,5% total J=6,6% T0%
Total E+G+J+T=33%___ E*(xE1b1b) 11% is an absurdity before the 20th century
 I 7,7% N1c 1,1% R1a 2,2%
R1b-P25 1,1% R1b-M269* 31,87% R1b-sry2627 1,1% R1b-U106 7,7% R1b_U152  14,3% Total R1b=57%
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Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2012, 09:56:51 AM »

I am not confident in the results of Ramos-Luis et al-2009 with the French blood institute.

The choice of samples were probably done by technicians of the blood institute and I am not confident to their care about the choice.
Auvergne and other French regions needs to be checked again for verification by independant and confirmed scientifics.

From http://u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6%3Adeeper-look-ramos-luis-et-al-2009-study&catid=1&Itemid=57

Auvergne results published by Ramos-Luis et al. n=89
E*(xE1b1b)  2,25% E-M78 3,37% E-M81 5,62% E-M123 1,12% Total E=12,36%
G 9% J*(xJ1a,J2) 3,37% J2 7,87% total J=11, 25% T 3,37%
Total E+G+J+T=36% Possible, but needs to be verify
 I 4,5% K(xL,N1c,P,T) 1,12% R1a 5,62%
R1b-M269* 31,46% R1b-sry2627 1,12% R1b-U106 3,37% R1b_U152  16,85% Total R1b=52,8%

If Auvergne results are surprising, Ile-De-France are certainly wrong

Ile De France  results published by Ramos-Luis et al. n=91
E*(xE1b1b) 11% E-M78 4,4% E-M81 5,5% E-M123 1,1% Total E=22%
G 4,4% J*(xJ1a,J2) 1% J2 5,5% total J=6,6% T0%
Total E+G+J+T=33%___ E*(xE1b1b) 11% is an absurdity before the 20th century
 I 7,7% N1c 1,1% R1a 2,2%
R1b-P25 1,1% R1b-M269* 31,87% R1b-sry2627 1,1% R1b-U106 7,7% R1b_U152  14,3% Total R1b=57%

Palamede, good to see you here.

I understand your concerns, but blaming incompetent lab technicians is very unrealistic. Remember that this data was originally published in a forensics journal and was probably intended to help out the medical and law enforcement communities and not archeo-geneticists.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 09:57:33 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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razyn
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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2012, 10:59:25 AM »

I understand your concerns, but blaming incompetent lab technicians is very unrealistic.

Yes, but taking this study as having major implications about the prehistoric population base of present France is also unrealistic in its way.

I think the key ingredient might be the M269* figures, presumably based on the small number of markers they used.  Also, a lot of SNPs under M269, important to the prehistory of France, had not been discovered in 2009.  Some of them still haven't been.
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