World Families Forums - French (P312 & U152) versus Flemish (U106) surnames in Brabant

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 21, 2014, 11:21:49 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  French (P312 & U152) versus Flemish (U106) surnames in Brabant
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: French (P312 & U152) versus Flemish (U106) surnames in Brabant  (Read 2914 times)
Richard Rocca
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523


« on: April 21, 2012, 07:10:16 PM »

This is a new paper based on the already well known Brabant project. It shows the increase in P312 and U152 in French surnames when compared to Flemish surnames which are higher in U106. Unfortunately the project still hasn't tested the P312 data for L21. SYR2627 had a single sample out of 599. The most exciting thing about the paper is the following quote:

"French male Y-lineages are still poorly characterized on phylogenetic depth, especially on a regional scale (Ramos-Luis et al., 2009). Accurate frequencies of all subhaplogroups within France, inclusively Northern France, are expected soon (Ramos-Luis E, personal communication)."

It is not clear, but it seems to me that Ramos-Luis will put out new data and it will be more detailed than the France data from a few years ago.

In the name of the migrant father—Analysis of surname origins identifies genetic admixture events undetectable from genealogical records

Larmuseau et al. (2012)

Patrilineal heritable surnames are widely used to select autochthonous participants for studies on small-scale population genetic patterns owing to the unique link between the surname and a genetic marker, the Y-chromosome (Y-chr). Today, the question arises as to whether the surname origin will be informative on top of in-depth genealogical pedigrees. Admixture events that happened in the period after giving heritable surnames but before the start of genealogical records may be informative about the additional value of the surname origin. In this context, an interesting historical event is the demic migration from French-speaking regions in Northern France to the depopulated and Dutch-speaking region Flanders at the end of the sixteenth century. Y-chr subhaplogroups of individuals with a French/Roman surname that could be associated with this migration event were compared with those of a group with autochthonous Flemish surnames. Although these groups could not be differentiated based on in-depth genealogical data, they were significantly genetically different from each other. Moreover, the observed genetic divergence was related to the differences in the distributions of main Y-subhaplogroups between contemporary populations from Northern France and Flanders. Therefore, these results indicate that the surname origin can be an important feature on top of in-depth genealogical results to select autochthonous participants for a regional population genetic study based on Y-chromosomes.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 07:11:16 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2012, 07:56:34 PM »

Richard,

As you know this subject is of great interest to me.  I am looking forward to these new data sets by Ramos-Luis.

My particular surname has been recently found in the records of Correze, France in the villages of St. Martial de Gimel, St. Priest de Gimel and Chanac-les-Mines as well as others in Rhone-Alpes.   The original records are now on line and they can be found by laboriously looking page by page through them.  I have found the original spelling of my surname in these records.  They are also being indexed by some wonderful volunteers in France.   What I am finding is that a surname originally spelled Pigmon, for instance, is being transcribed as Pimont and/or Pimond.  This makes sense phonetically if you verbalize the sounds in French, however I still cannot avoid going through the thousands of pages of script in old French/Occitan.  This would be fine but I cannot find a Pimon, Pymon, Pimond, Pimont in ysearch or anywhere else to compare my y-DNA to.

In my case our family was said to be an "old" French family that came over to the colonies just before the revolutionary war.  Other family lore says we were Italian.  The Italian fact can be backed up by the results of my tests:

Eurasian, Indo-European, Latin / Romance Language Speakers, Italian R1b (L-2+).
Here are references from wikipedia:

Piedmont (Italian: Piemonte, pronounced [pjeˈmonte]; Piedmontese and Occitan: Piemont; French: Piémont)

A theory about Pygmalion (Pumayathon-King of Tyre)

Turin (Italian: Torino, pronounced [toˈriːno] ( listen); Piedmontese: Turin, pronounced [tyˈɾiŋ])

Notice the JJJ sound in Piemontese and the apparent reference to Tyre in the Piedmontese pronunciation of Turin.

Could Pigmon be Piemontese for Piemonte?  Thereby a reference to my surname being -Piedmont?  Any Linguists out there?

Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 06:54:24 PM by Pigman » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2012, 02:35:20 AM »

Unfortunately your values are very usual, crushed to the modal, which doesn’t mean the origin but only the most diffused and survived. Anyway, if we take the modal of R-U152 (QM4ES) we may extract at least 6 values (plus another slow mutating for doing a comparison on SMGF: I choose DYS461=12, but you could prove with many others).
These are the values:

DYS390=23
DYS439=13
DYS458=16
DYS464=15-15-17-18
DYS456=16
DYS444=13

No match on SMGF, but at the GD of 1, we have :

David (France) with a mismatch at DYS444
Unknown with a mismatch at DYS439
2 Dubose (France) and Manuel (Brazil) with a mismatch at DYS390
Forester and Beasley (USA) with a mismatch at DYS458

I’d say that the origin is in France (the Americans of English descent could be of recent French origin (Normans etc.): see Forester etc.). I don’t see a link with Piedmont, except the link with some Waldensians or recent immigrant from France.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 02:41:47 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2012, 07:19:39 AM »

As I recall, Busby had L21 frequency in the eastern portion of Northern France, just beyond the Belgian border, at 10%, so I think that will probably be about right for Belgium, as well, with maybe some decline, given that, in general, L21 does seem to decline as one moves east.

It is a shame that the Brabant Project did not test for L21.
Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2012, 11:33:14 AM »

Unfortunately your values are very usual, crushed to the modal, which doesn’t mean the origin but only the most diffused and survived. Anyway, if we take the modal of R-U152 (QM4ES) we may extract at least 6 values (plus another slow mutating for doing a comparison on SMGF: I choose DYS461=12, but you could prove with many others).
These are the values:

DYS390=23
DYS439=13
DYS458=16
DYS464=15-15-17-18
DYS456=16
DYS444=13

No match on SMGF, but at the GD of 1, we have :

David (France) with a mismatch at DYS444
Unknown with a mismatch at DYS439
2 Dubose (France) and Manuel (Brazil) with a mismatch at DYS390
Forester and Beasley (USA) with a mismatch at DYS458

I’d say that the origin is in France (the Americans of English descent could be of recent French origin (Normans etc.): see Forester etc.). I don’t see a link with Piedmont, except the link with some Waldensians or recent immigrant from France.

Of course being all this middle-fast mutating markers they aren’t cogent to determine a clade, and we’d need of a SNP test to be sure they belong to the same haplogroup.
These are their complete values:

John David, 1840, France
13,23,14,11,12-15,12,12,13,13,13,29,16,9-10,11,11,26,15,19,28,15-15-17-18,11,11,19-23,16,12,12,11,14,12,11,13,23,10,13,12,30,24

David William Dubose, 1818, Mississippi, USA
13,24,15,11,12-14,12,13,13,13,14,29,16,8-10,11,11,25,15,20,29,15-15-17-18,11,11,19-23,16,12,12,13,13,12,11,13,23,10,13,12,31,24

Isaac Dubose, ab. 1665, Dieppe, Normandie, France
13,24,15,11,12-14,12,13,13,13,14,29,16,8-10,11,11,25,15,20,30,15-15-17-18,11,11,19-23,16,12,12,13,13,12,11,13,23,10,13,12,31,24

Simon R. Beasley, 1829, Dekalb, Georgia, USA
13,23,14,11,11-14,12,12,13,13,14,29,17,9-10,11,11,24,15,19,28,15-15-17-18,11,8,19-23,16,13,12,13,13,12,11,13,23,10,13,12,30,24

Solomon Beasley, 1772, Core Creek, North Carolina, USA
13,23,14,11,11-14,12,12,13,13,14,29,17,9-10,11,11,24,15,19,28,15-15-17-18,11,8,19-23,16,13,12,12,13,12,11,13,23,10,13,12,30,24

Joao Manuel, Brazil
13,24,15,11,11-14,12,12,13,13,14,29,16,9-9,11,11,26,14,19,29,15-15-17-18,10,11,18-23,16,11,12,13,13,12,11,13,23,10,13,12,30,24

Forester is too much distant.
Beasleys and other Beezleys with their H4=8 (a multi step mutation) are well characterized by this.
Anyway nothing close to Italian haplotypes.




« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 11:35:38 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

JeanL
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 425


« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2012, 11:43:55 AM »

Here is Figure-1 with the distribution of Haplogroups



http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/MHDLarmuseauetal2012Figure-1.jpg

« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 11:44:07 AM by JeanL » Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2012, 12:01:10 PM »

Unfortunately your values are very usual, crushed to the modal, which doesn’t mean the origin but only the most diffused and survived. Anyway, if we take the modal of R-U152 (QM4ES) we may extract at least 6 values (plus another slow mutating for doing a comparison on SMGF: I choose DYS461=12, but you could prove with many others).
These are the values:

DYS390=23
DYS439=13
DYS458=16
DYS464=15-15-17-18
DYS456=16
DYS444=13

No match on SMGF, but at the GD of 1, we have :

David (France) with a mismatch at DYS444
Unknown with a mismatch at DYS439
2 Dubose (France) and Manuel (Brazil) with a mismatch at DYS390
Forester and Beasley (USA) with a mismatch at DYS458

I’d say that the origin is in France (the Americans of English descent could be of recent French origin (Normans etc.): see Forester etc.). I don’t see a link with Piedmont, except the link with some Waldensians or recent immigrant from France.

Thank you for your analysis.  I have noticed the closer relationship with Forrester, Wood, etc.  I just looked up Dubose(Duboise) and the etymology is forest dweller.  With Beasley it is a clearing in the forest.  David - don't know - King David?

In 17 and 18th century France most were illiterate as in all countries then.  A French lady has reminded me via e-mail that the itinerant Priests did not always know how to spell surnames and thus we have a wide variety of spellings as in all the censuses.  Since I really don't closely match any of the participants in the North Italy project that my first guess may the one to concentrate on.  I am in the Greek project and match very closely to a couple of entries in there.   If originally my surname was Pygmon (recorded as an ancient Greek name - Cypriot?) then phonetically (in the French) my name could have been "mixed up" with Pimond, Pimont, etc.  

As far as what country it was in the 1600's It looks as though Correze was a part of the Holy Roman Empire as well as most of the Eastern parts of today's France.  So maybe both family stories were correct!  We could have been both Italian and French.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 12:22:20 PM by Pigman » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2012, 12:15:57 PM »

I have been hardly criticized for supporting from many years the Italian Refugium and that all Western Europeans come from Italy, then imagine if I weren’t glad of an Italian origin of your haplotype! But I consider the data, and nothing link you to more recent Italians. Since, against all, I think that R-U152 was born in Italy, also you probably come from here. And if your origin were in Greece, as probably your surname testifies (remember Greek “pygmè”), I have always supported that Greek R-U152-s are above all of Venetian origin. But I don’t find any Italian close to you, whereas your haplotype matches many Western Europeans.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2012, 12:34:58 PM »

I would be proud to have been Italian and equally proud to be French or Greek-French.  I, am just trying to find the real origins.  When I first tested I went with Genebase and since then I have deep clade tested and retested with ftdna.  Here is what Genebase had to say:
   
   ethnic origins

Curtis Pigman    
   Posted On: 11 May 2010 04:47 PM
When I first tested my Y-dna subclades I had my earliest ancestor listed on my profile as Italian. That was just a guess and now I am thinking that he came from Pignan, France. My question is: Is the ethnic origin that you put on my profile (Eurasian, Indo-European, Latin / Romance Language Speakers, Italian) based solely on the str markers and the snps or did my addition have any bearing on the origin you put on there??   
Ticket Details
Ticket ID:    GHS-517415    Department:    DNA Ancestry
Priority:    High
Created On:    11 May 2010 04:47 PM    Last Update:    11 May 2010 05:49 PM
   Conversation
The Genebase Team    
   Posted On: 11 May 2010 05:49 PM
Dear Curtis Pigman,

The information that we generate are as follows:

1. Your haplogroup is generated directly from your DNA results (DNA haplogroups).
2. Your indigenous DNA matches are generated directly from your DNA results.
3. Your DNA Reunion matches to other people in the system is generated directly from your DNA results.

All other information fields are entered by yourself, including your family tree and your earliest ancestor. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at any time. Best regards,

Genebaseteam

So that is why I was looking at Italian markers.  Perhaps Genebase is wrong?

Regards,
Curtis
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 03:56:46 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2012, 12:57:59 PM »

My question is: Is the ethnic origin that you put on my profile (Eurasian, Indo-European, Latin / Romance Language Speakers, Italian) based solely on the str markers and the snps or did my addition have any bearing on the origin you put on there??   

The answer:
All other information fields are entered by yourself, including your family tree and your earliest ancestor”.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2012, 06:35:01 PM »

I feel the Genebase reply to my question was a little vague.  They entered Italian after the romance language part and that is in a field that I cannot enter or change.  Perhaps I misunderstood their answer.


Also there is this:

The Pigmon surname in Greek meaning "fist" is "πυγμων" or in all Greek capital letters "ΠΥΓΜΩΝ" (PYGMON). One of the hints I have found of our ancestor is from the following:

Pygmon
(Πύγμων), the engraver of a gem in the Florentine Museum, the inscription on which has been variously read ΠΕΙΓΜΟ, ΠΕΠΓΑΜΟΓΥ, and ΠΥΓΜΩΝ, but the latter appears to be the true form. There is another gem on which the name of Pergamus is found distinctly inscribed. (R. Rochette, Lettre à M. Schorn, p. 149, 2d ed.; comp. PERGAMUS.)

William Smith. A dictionary of Greek and Roman biography and mythology. London. John Murray: printed by Spottiswoode and Co., New-Street Square and Parliament Street. In the article on Soranus, we find: "at this present time (1848)" and this date seems to reflect the dates of works cited. 1873 - probably the printing date.
 The Pygmon faun model is the one Michangelo made his first sculpture from at the the age of 16.

Another reason for thinking we were Italian is this excerpt from a 1937 interview:

"Mrs. Cummings is a great-granddaughter of John Pigman, who came to the colonies sometime before the Revolutionary war. An Italian by birth, he had been compelled for political reasons to leave Italy, went to England for a time, married an English woman and came to the colonies to establish a home. His unmarried brother took part in the Boston Tea Party and was never seen nor heard of again.
John Pigman must have been quite well-to-do for he brought five servants with him as well as what would amount to several thousand dollars in present-day money. The cash he turned over to the colonials when the Revolution came."

This may be a different line of our family (or a different family) however because I convinced a "Maryland" Pigman to test and we are a GD of 5.  That makes us almost 1000 years apart and then only a 49% chance of a shared paternal ancestor.

Soo back to the Greek-French theory.  Since I am L-2+ and L-20- and L-196- my good friend Steve tells me I should test for Z49 and then Z142.  I will but money is an issue since the tornado damage here.

Regards,
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Motto:  "Never give up the search!"
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 07:10:05 PM by Pigman » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
spanjool
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 38


« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2012, 03:41:57 AM »

Richard Rocco quoted an article by Larmuseau et al 2012 in which a very important phrase should be emphasized:
Although these groups could not be differentiated based on in-depth genealogical data, they were significantly genetically different from each other.
In another article by the same author also in 2012 in which the y-chromosome cline of U152 and U106 in Brabant was studied (a remake of a similar study a few years ago) it was made clear that such a cline (U106 more in North, U152 vice versa) only visible if an ancestor at least from 1800 lived in that area.

The genealogical records especially in de Zuidelijke Nederlanden! reach at least till ca 1650 so finding samples with a ancestry of at least 300 years in a certain area will sharpen the results.

Also this will rule out the Latinised and Frenchified Dutch/Flamish surnames; a tendancy of the bourgois people in the 19th century.
Around 1700 most Dutch and Flanders had their family surname fixed; and mostly they were derivations of patronimes (Janssen=son of Jan etc)

Hans van Vliet (Jean de la Riviere)
Logged

R1b-Z220*
jerome72
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2012, 02:20:09 PM »

.

My particular surname has been recently found in the records of Correze, France in the villages of St. Martial de Gimel, St. Priest de Gimel and Chanac-les-Mines as well as others in Rhone-Alpes.   The original records are now on line and they can be found by laboriously looking page by page through them.  I have found the original spelling of my surname in these records.  They are also being indexed by some wonderful volunteers in France.   What I am finding is that a surname originally spelled Pigmon, for instance, is being transcribed as Pimont and/or Pimond.  This makes sense phonetically if you verbalize the sounds in French, however I still cannot avoid going through the thousands of pages of script in old French/Occitan.  This would be fine but I cannot find a Pimon, Pymon, Pimond, Pimont in ysearch or anywhere else to compare my y-DNA to.

Your ancestor is called, I think, Leonard Pigmon

 A small indication in favor of an origin of the Correze
 About a hundred French department, It's in  Corrèze that this first name is the most common (and many) about 1700/1800.

In this period, Half of leonard, in France, lived in Limousin!
http://www.geneanet.org/prenoms/signification/Leonard
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 02:20:45 PM by jerome72 » Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2012, 02:53:29 PM »

.

My particular surname has been recently found in the records of Correze, France in the villages of St. Martial de Gimel, St. Priest de Gimel and Chanac-les-Mines as well as others in Rhone-Alpes.   The original records are now on line and they can be found by laboriously looking page by page through them.  I have found the original spelling of my surname in these records.  They are also being indexed by some wonderful volunteers in France.   What I am finding is that a surname originally spelled Pigmon, for instance, is being transcribed as Pimont and/or Pimond.  This makes sense phonetically if you verbalize the sounds in French, however I still cannot avoid going through the thousands of pages of script in old French/Occitan.  This would be fine but I cannot find a Pimon, Pymon, Pimond, Pimont in ysearch or anywhere else to compare my y-DNA to.

Your ancestor is called, I think, Leonard Pigmon

 A small indication in favor of an origin of the Correze
 About a hundred French department, It's in  Corrèze that this first name is the most common (and many) about 1700/1800.

In this period, Half of leonard, in France, lived in Limousin!
http://www.geneanet.org/prenoms/signification/Leonard
Thank for that reference!  Yes, I noticed that on practically every page of the Correze records from the 1600's and 1700's  there are several Leonards and Leonardes (feminine) as well.  The interesting thing is maybe it came from Leonid of the Spartans (Pelopenisia).  I have some very close matches there, one in particular:  Kyriakos Athanasopoulos, Messinia, Peloponnese,  Greece.

Also, King Leonid of the Spartans was said to have descended from Pygmaeus of the upper Egyptian Nile river. Pygmaeus, a son of Dorus and grandson of Epaphus. (Steph. Byz. s. v. Pugmaioi.) Later writers usually place them near the sources of the Nile. Dorius (Greek as in Dorian?)

Then it gets lost in the fables of Liliputian, Hercules, and the Pygmies. Hmmmmmm? Just theories, of course, but scientific methods employ theories.  Then those theories are either proven or dis-proven if possible.

Incidentally,  A nice French lady who is knowledgeable in the genealogy of Correze tells me that the "g" in Pigmon or Pygmon is silent in French.  At least I think that is what she is saying.  She knows English but there is a little bit of a language barrier.  When I use google translate it pronounces it as a hard "g".  Anyone know French?

Regards,
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Motto:  "Never give up the search!"
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 05:26:39 PM by Pigman » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
jerome72
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2012, 12:33:08 AM »

Incidentally,  A nice French lady who is knowledgeable in the genealogy of Correze tells me that the "g" in Pigmon or Pygmon is silent in French.  

Not really!

I'm afraid that pigmon in Correze is read errors (instead of Pymon?) Or a fantaisy spelling of one priest! Do you have a document?
Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2012, 09:38:10 AM »

Incidentally,  A nice French lady who is knowledgeable in the genealogy of Correze tells me that the "g" in Pigmon or Pygmon is silent in French.  

Not really!

I'm afraid that pigmon in Correze is read errors (instead of Pymon?) Or a fantaisy spelling of one priest! Do you have a document?
I didn't think the g would be silent.  The originals are in pdf format which I cannot attach here.  Send an e-mail to me at chp_hays@yahoo.com and I will send them to you.

Thanks,
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Motto:  "Never give up the search!"
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2012, 07:08:40 PM »

Incidentally,  A nice French lady who is knowledgeable in the genealogy of Correze tells me that the "g" in Pigmon or Pygmon is silent in French.  

Not really!

I'm afraid that pigmon in Correze is read errors (instead of Pymon?) Or a fantaisy spelling of one priest! Do you have a document?

I returned your e-mail with a couple of pdf attachments.  Did you receive them?
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 07:46:17 PM »

It seems that my nice French lady friend in France is very involved in the elections.  She said she will get back to me as soon as things calm down a bit.

I have in the meantime, however, found the original birth record of  Michel Pigmon b. 1707 in Gimel-les-Cascades, Correze, Limousin, France.  This record was recorded recently as Michel Pimond b. 1707 in the transcriptions.  I do not know why....
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 04:09:25 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
gtc
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 238


« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2012, 07:34:32 PM »

I have in the meantime, however, found the original birth record of  Michel Pigmon b. 1707 in Gimel-les-Cascades, Correze, Limousin, France.  This record was recorded recently as Michel Pimond b. 1707 in the transcriptions.  I do not know why....

Might that suggest a phonetic spelling of the pronunciation 'pi-mon' ?
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2012, 12:59:03 PM »

I have in the meantime, however, found the original birth record of  Michel Pigmon b. 1707 in Gimel-les-Cascades, Correze, Limousin, France.  This record was recorded recently as Michel Pimond b. 1707 in the transcriptions.  I do not know why....

Might that suggest a phonetic spelling of the pronunciation 'pi-mon' ?

It sure seems that way.  In Italian - Wikipedia says it would be pronounced:

Piedmont (Italian: Piemonte, pronounced [pjeˈmonte]; Piedmontese and Occitan: Piemont; French: Piémont)

Interestingly though I have found the originals for Leonarde Pigmon and Michael Pigmon.  They are spelled Pigmon in the handwritten records.  Leonarde Piemons is in a marriage document 9 July 1682 as Piemons and her Father Jean Piemond.

Later  documents 1704-1707 spell Leonarde and Michel and Ciricie as the last name Pigmon but sometimes Pimond.  Probably as you said an Italian-Piemontese, French phonetic thing as the "d" and or "t" are silent in Pimond and Pimont (in French at least).  As far as the "g" it could the the JJJ sound as in Italian: Piemonte, pronounced [pjeˈmonte].???
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2012, 04:45:11 PM »

I feel as though I hijacked this tread and for that I apologize.  It is not often, however, that I get a breakthrough.  It is relevant in a way though because I am so far R1b L-2*.

It looks as though my ancestral name may have been Pigmon/Pimond/Pimont (name changed again around 1800 to Pimont) in the St. Priest-de-Gimel, St. Martial-de-Gimel, Chanac-les-Mines, and Gimel-les-Cascades area. I have even found (I think) the original place where Jean Pimond (John Pigmon) my 6th great grandfather  lived in 1658 it was La Bastide (country house) in Gimel, Correze near St. Priest-de-Gimel. Our surname Pigmon was spelled that way for a time around 1700 in Correze, Limousin, France. Other spellings were Pymond, Pymon, and Piemond. With the dates and first names that repeat in subsequent generations it looks like the right place!

It really does pay to be persistent!

Frazie mille Maliclavelli and merci beaucoup Jerome72 for your help!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 02:18:51 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
palamede
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 01:45:26 PM »

It looks as though my ancestral name may have been Pigmon/Pimond/Pimont (name changed again around 1800 to Pimont) in the St. Priest-de-Gimel, St. Martial-de-Gimel, Chanac-les-Mines, and Gimel-les-Cascades area.

20 years ago, I visited the church of  Gimel-les-Cascades and the treasure of the church. Maybe, I visited the waterfalls, but I don't remind.
The lady who was my  schoolteacher in my small Norman village, was originated  from a village neighbouring of  Gimel, une "Corrézienne" .

Leonard is an old limousin name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Leonard_of_Noblac
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-L%C3%A9onard-de-Noblat
A great limousine artist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9onard_Limousin
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 02:20:48 PM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2012, 01:13:36 PM »

It looks as though my ancestral name may have been Pigmon/Pimond/Pimont (name changed again around 1800 to Pimont) in the St. Priest-de-Gimel, St. Martial-de-Gimel, Chanac-les-Mines, and Gimel-les-Cascades area.

20 years ago, I visited the church of  Gimel-les-Cascades and the treasure of the church. Maybe, I visited the waterfalls, but I don't remind.
The lady who was my  schoolteacher in my small Norman village, was originated  from a village neighbouring of  Gimel, une "Corrézienne" .

Leonard is an old limousin name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Leonard_of_Noblac
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-L%C3%A9onard-de-Noblat
A great limousine artist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9onard_Limousin
Merci for that information on Leonard.  It is amazing how many are named Leonard and Leonarde in Correze.

Do you have any idea why some of my e-mails are being automatically identified as spam by @free.fr?  I have gotten through a couple of times to 2 people I am trying to talk to about Pimond genealogy but the last two I sent bounced back.  Do they have a very stringent requirement or something?

I am trying to get a couple of pdf documents from the 1600's translated by a couple of French amateur genealogists with Pimond/Pimont in their families.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 01:26:02 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
sstclair
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2012, 10:36:10 PM »

Hi Richard,

I wrote about this as well and find it fascinating with regard to our Sinclair U106 members. I'm becoming convinced they were Flemish. My blog post on this here -
http://stclairdna.blogspot.com/2012/05/clues-for-sinclair-dna-in-frisia.html

I thought the Cummings family members might find this video interesting. If you watch it to 3 minutes and 40 seconds, you'll see some research I'm doing on Cummings / Sinclair U106 (Z346) connections in Scotland.

http://stclairdna.blogspot.com/2012/12/sinclair-dna-data-combining.html

Kind Regards,
Steve St. Clair
http://www.StClairResearch.com
Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.241 seconds with 19 queries.