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Author Topic: R-L21: Three new subclades - Big Kahuna, DF13, and DF49, DF63  (Read 10489 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: April 20, 2012, 05:03:03 PM »

Greg M has announced that our favorite anonymous researcher (of the 1000 Human Genome Project) has identified two new subclades for L21. One, DF13, appears to be significantly shrink R-L21*.  DF13 an ancestor to the other major current subclades including DF49 (which is right above DF23), DF21, DF1/L513, Z253 and Z255. This makes DF13 the Big Kahuna!

DF63 is much smaller and is parallel to DF13. L21* is disappearing but there will still be L21* people.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 05:20:05 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2012, 05:15:35 PM »

Greg M has announced that our favorite anonymous researcher (of the 1000 Human Genome Project) has identified two new subclades for L21. One, DF13, appears to be significantly shrink R-L21*.  DF13 an ancestor to the other major current subclades including DF49 (which is right above DF23), DF21, DF1/L513, Z253 and Z255.

DF63 is much smaller and is parallel to DF13. L21* is disappearing but there will still be L21* people.

I'm guessing I will probably end up either in DF63 or still in R-L21* as 1111EE just doesn't seem to fit well with any other clusters. Mark Jost pointed out that these subclades will have to be older than L513 (which is estimated to maybe have emerged between 500 and 900 BCE based on Mike's timeline chart).

Of course, half way between that range, 722 BCE is the date of the Northern Kingdom's destruction by Assyria and the subsequent dispersal of a whole bunch of people to who knows where. Gosh, maybe even some of my distant R1b kinfolk to northern Europe. I will certainly test for these new SNPs once they are available.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2012, 05:51:50 PM »

Man! SNPs are coming out right and left these days!

I don't suppose FTDNA has geared up to test any of these yet, have they?
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Jdean
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2012, 05:57:40 PM »

Man! SNPs are coming out right and left these days!

I don't suppose FTDNA has geared up to test any of these yet, have they?

No but if DF41 is anything to go by once they have the primers developed it shouldn't take to long.

Hopefully uptake will be high for these two and DF27.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 05:58:09 PM by Jdean » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2012, 06:10:19 PM »

Greg M has announced that our favorite anonymous researcher (of the 1000 Human Genome Project) has identified two new subclades for L21. One, DF13, appears to be significantly shrink R-L21*.  DF13 an ancestor to the other major current subclades including DF49 (which is right above DF23), DF21, DF1/L513, Z253 and Z255. This makes DF13 the Big Kahuna!

DF63 is much smaller and is parallel to DF13. L21* is disappearing but there will still be L21* people.

Very exciting stuff.  So, that would leave which clades not DF13 then?
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 06:12:30 PM »

I was planning to order Z253 soon (not sure when exactly), but now my head is spinning, what with trying to keep up with all the new P312 Project SNPs, as well as the L21 SNPs. Now these new ones appear.

Who was that famous Belgian chess player who, while blindfolded, could play something like 30 people simultaneously and beat all of them?

Pretty soon we're going to need someone like that to keep track of all these SNPs.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 06:17:52 PM »

Greg M has announced that our favorite anonymous researcher (of the 1000 Human Genome Project) has identified two new subclades for L21. One, DF13, appears to be significantly shrink R-L21*.  DF13 an ancestor to the other major current subclades including DF49 (which is right above DF23), DF21, DF1/L513, Z253 and Z255. This makes DF13 the Big Kahuna!

DF63 is much smaller and is parallel to DF13. L21* is disappearing but there will still be L21* people.

Mike - this is probably a silly question but how is it already known that DF13 unites all of those clusters?  Secondly whatever that process is, what have been ruled out as DF13?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 06:21:49 PM »

I was planning to order Z253 soon (not sure when exactly), but now my head is spinning, what with trying to keep up with all the new P312 Project SNPs, as well as the L21 SNPs. Now these new ones appear.

Who was that famous Belgian chess player who, while blindfolded, could play something like 30 people simultaneously and beat all of them?

Pretty soon we're going to need someone like that to keep track of all these SNPs.

I am surprising myself (I dont really have a great memory, especially for numerical stuff) that I am sort of keeping up with this!  I would be fairly sure you will lose your * shortly Rich.  Never felt fair you were stuck on an * after the amount of effort you have put in over the years.
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Jdean
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 06:28:02 PM »

I was planning to order Z253 soon (not sure when exactly), but now my head is spinning, what with trying to keep up with all the new P312 Project SNPs, as well as the L21 SNPs. Now these new ones appear.

Who was that famous Belgian chess player who, while blindfolded, could play something like 30 people simultaneously and beat all of them?

Pretty soon we're going to need someone like that to keep track of all these SNPs.

I am surprising myself (I dont really have a great memory, especially for numerical stuff) that I am sort of keeping up with this!  I would be fairly sure you will lose your * shortly Rich.  Never felt fair you were stuck on an * after the amount of effort you have put in over the years.

As they say, a pictures worth a thousand words.

This is the new proposed tree for L21 produced by GregRM which includes the SNPs DF41, DF13 & DF63

https://www.box.com/s/e4eb322e9a3cab0f5dfd
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 06:30:00 PM »

I was planning to order Z253 soon (not sure when exactly), but now my head is spinning, what with trying to keep up with all the new P312 Project SNPs, as well as the L21 SNPs. Now these new ones appear.

Who was that famous Belgian chess player who, while blindfolded, could play something like 30 people simultaneously and beat all of them?

Pretty soon we're going to need someone like that to keep track of all these SNPs.

I am surprising myself (I dont really have a great memory, especially for numerical stuff) that I am sort of keeping up with this!  I would be fairly sure you will lose your * shortly Rich.  Never felt fair you were stuck on an * after the amount of effort you have put in over the years.

As they say, a pictures worth a thousand words.

This is the new proposed tree for L21 produced by GregRM which includes the SNPs DF41, DF13 & DF63

https://www.box.com/s/e4eb322e9a3cab0f5dfd

That is helpful. Thanks!
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2012, 06:34:46 PM »

I was planning to order Z253 soon (not sure when exactly), but now my head is spinning, what with trying to keep up with all the new P312 Project SNPs, as well as the L21 SNPs. Now these new ones appear.

Who was that famous Belgian chess player who, while blindfolded, could play something like 30 people simultaneously and beat all of them?

Pretty soon we're going to need someone like that to keep track of all these SNPs.

I am surprising myself (I dont really have a great memory, especially for numerical stuff) that I am sort of keeping up with this!  I would be fairly sure you will lose your * shortly Rich.  Never felt fair you were stuck on an * after the amount of effort you have put in over the years.

Thanks, Alan.

I haven't really tested for everything. Of the fairly recent SNPs, I've done DF21 and DF23, but that's it. I never ordered a Deep Clade upgrade, but most of the SNPs included in that have STR indicators that I lack. I was sort of hoping someone with a haplotype close to mine would be the pathfinder and money spender; but, alas, I seem to be the most enthusiastic member of my "cluster" (if cluster it is). ;-)

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2012, 06:42:33 PM »

As they say, a pictures worth a thousand words.

This is the new proposed tree for L21 produced by GregRM which includes the SNPs DF41, DF13 & DF63

https://www.box.com/s/e4eb322e9a3cab0f5dfd

I believe the HG00243 sample is from Great Britain. Where is the HG02014 sample from?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2012, 06:46:12 PM »

I was planning to order Z253 soon (not sure when exactly), but now my head is spinning, what with trying to keep up with all the new P312 Project SNPs, as well as the L21 SNPs. Now these new ones appear.

Who was that famous Belgian chess player who, while blindfolded, could play something like 30 people simultaneously and beat all of them?

Pretty soon we're going to need someone like that to keep track of all these SNPs.

I am surprising myself (I dont really have a great memory, especially for numerical stuff) that I am sort of keeping up with this!  I would be fairly sure you will lose your * shortly Rich.  Never felt fair you were stuck on an * after the amount of effort you have put in over the years.

Thanks, Alan.

I haven't really tested for everything. Of the fairly recent SNPs, I've done DF21 and DF23, but that's it. I never ordered a Deep Clade upgrade, but most of the SNPs included in that have STR indicators that I lack. I was sort of hoping someone with a haplotype close to mine would be the pathfinder and money spender; but, alas, I seem to be the most enthusiastic member of my "cluster" (if cluster it is). ;-)



My own cluster has benefited from Keith M being a very willing and enthusiastic tester who has put his money down to work out its phylogeny. 
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2012, 06:48:57 PM »

As they say, a pictures worth a thousand words.

This is the new proposed tree for L21 produced by GregRM which includes the SNPs DF41, DF13 & DF63

https://www.box.com/s/e4eb322e9a3cab0f5dfd

I believe the HG00243 sample is from Great Britain. Where is the HG02014 sample from?

OK, I found it. HG02014 is ACB (African Caribbean in Barbados). Interesting?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2012, 06:59:06 PM »

I was planning to order Z253 soon (not sure when exactly), but now my head is spinning, what with trying to keep up with all the new P312 Project SNPs, as well as the L21 SNPs. Now these new ones appear.

Who was that famous Belgian chess player who, while blindfolded, could play something like 30 people simultaneously and beat all of them?

Pretty soon we're going to need someone like that to keep track of all these SNPs.

I am surprising myself (I dont really have a great memory, especially for numerical stuff) that I am sort of keeping up with this!  I would be fairly sure you will lose your * shortly Rich.  Never felt fair you were stuck on an * after the amount of effort you have put in over the years.

As they say, a pictures worth a thousand words.

This is the new proposed tree for L21 produced by GregRM which includes the SNPs DF41, DF13 & DF63

https://www.box.com/s/e4eb322e9a3cab0f5dfd

Ahh.. I just updated the Yahoo group home page before I saw this.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/Haplogroup_R-L21_Tree_Chart.jpg

Haplogroup Phylogenetic Tree Chart showing Ancestors and Descendants for R-L21. 2012-04-20

I see DF41 is known to be under DF13, the Big Kahuna. [EDIT: fixed DF41 on the chart at the Yahoo group]

« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 07:06:07 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jdean
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2012, 07:10:31 PM »

I was planning to order Z253 soon (not sure when exactly), but now my head is spinning, what with trying to keep up with all the new P312 Project SNPs, as well as the L21 SNPs. Now these new ones appear.

Who was that famous Belgian chess player who, while blindfolded, could play something like 30 people simultaneously and beat all of them?

Pretty soon we're going to need someone like that to keep track of all these SNPs.

I am surprising myself (I dont really have a great memory, especially for numerical stuff) that I am sort of keeping up with this!  I would be fairly sure you will lose your * shortly Rich.  Never felt fair you were stuck on an * after the amount of effort you have put in over the years.

As they say, a pictures worth a thousand words.

This is the new proposed tree for L21 produced by GregRM which includes the SNPs DF41, DF13 & DF63

https://www.box.com/s/e4eb322e9a3cab0f5dfd

Ahh.. I just updated the Yahoo group home page before I saw this.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/Haplogroup_R-L21_Tree_Chart.jpg

Haplogroup Phylogenetic Tree Chart showing Ancestors and Descendants for R-L21. 2012-04-20

I see DF41 is known to be under DF13, the Big Kahuna. [EDIT: fixed DF41 on the chart at the Yahoo group]



To bring up a discussion in another thread, DF13 looks (at the moment) like a good candidate for the SNP born on the wave :)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 07:12:14 PM by Jdean » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2012, 07:16:44 PM »

I was planning to order Z253 soon (not sure when exactly), but now my head is spinning, what with trying to keep up with all the new P312 Project SNPs, as well as the L21 SNPs. Now these new ones appear.

Who was that famous Belgian chess player who, while blindfolded, could play something like 30 people simultaneously and beat all of them?

Pretty soon we're going to need someone like that to keep track of all these SNPs.

I am surprising myself (I dont really have a great memory, especially for numerical stuff) that I am sort of keeping up with this!  I would be fairly sure you will lose your * shortly Rich.  Never felt fair you were stuck on an * after the amount of effort you have put in over the years.

As they say, a pictures worth a thousand words.

This is the new proposed tree for L21 produced by GregRM which includes the SNPs DF41, DF13 & DF63

https://www.box.com/s/e4eb322e9a3cab0f5dfd

Ahh.. I just updated the Yahoo group home page before I saw this.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/Haplogroup_R-L21_Tree_Chart.jpg

Haplogroup Phylogenetic Tree Chart showing Ancestors and Descendants for R-L21. 2012-04-20

I see DF41 is known to be under DF13, the Big Kahuna. [EDIT: fixed DF41 on the chart at the Yahoo group]



To bring up a discussion in another thread, DF13 looks (at the moment) like a good candidate for the SNP born on the wave :)

Seems appropriate to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahuna
I've eaten at Duke's namesake restaurant.
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Jdean
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2012, 07:24:04 PM »


To bring up a discussion in another thread, DF13 looks (at the moment) like a good candidate for the SNP born on the wave :)

Seems appropriate to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahuna
I've eaten at Duke's namesake restaurant.

:) I'd forgotten Kahuna was a surfing reference.

The possibility of another SNP turning up that united most of R-L21 didn't crop up in our discussion, funny how quickly things can change !
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 07:27:43 PM by Jdean » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2012, 07:43:56 PM »


To bring up a discussion in another thread, DF13 looks (at the moment) like a good candidate for the SNP born on the wave :)

Seems appropriate to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahuna
I've eaten at Duke's namesake restaurant.

:) I'd forgotten Kahuna was a surfing reference.

The possibility of another SNP turning up that united most of R-L21 didn't crop up in our discussion, funny how quickly things can change !


As someone who grew up mostly in California, I appreciated your "wave" reference. I thought it was appropriate, given Mike's christening of DF13 as "the Big Kahuna". :-)
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rms2
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2012, 08:15:44 PM »


To bring up a discussion in another thread, DF13 looks (at the moment) like a good candidate for the SNP born on the wave :)

Seems appropriate to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahuna
I've eaten at Duke's namesake restaurant.

:) I'd forgotten Kahuna was a surfing reference.

The possibility of another SNP turning up that united most of R-L21 didn't crop up in our discussion, funny how quickly things can change !


As someone who grew up mostly in California, I appreciated your "wave" reference. I thought it was appropriate, given Mike's christening of DF13 as "the Big Kahuna". :-)

BTW, I spent far more time at the beach parked on a blanket with a good looking girl than I did in that cold cold water surfing (yes, the water off the coast of California is cold).

My younger brother Daniel was a big time surfer, but he invested in a wetsuit.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 08:16:35 PM by rms2 » Logged

cmblandford
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« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2012, 10:04:53 PM »

I think it will be interesting to see where the 9919 people fall. 
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2012, 01:12:13 AM »

I think it will be interesting to see where the 9919 people fall. 
I think the 9919 people, perhaps both the A and B varieties, the Scots Modal and the Irish II people are all distinct enough and old enough they must have their own SNPs in there somewhere.
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Jdean
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2012, 06:03:37 AM »

FTDNA now have the details for the primers for DF13 & DF63, hopefully they should be out soon.

Ymap for DF13
Ymap for DF63

Actually it looks like they already have the primer DF63 but until more is know about them it's best to order DF13 first followed by DF63 if necessary.



« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 06:18:49 AM by Jdean » Logged

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2012, 11:59:56 AM »

I noticed an odd YMap 'Comment' note (Bold) on the DF63. Is this the thought now?

Name: DF63
Type: snp
Description:
Source: other
Position: ChrY:2943986..2943986 (+ strand)
Length: 1
ISOGG_haplogroup: not listed
Mutation: T to C
YCC_haplogroup: Approx. hg: R-L21
allele_anc: T
allele_der: C
comments: Almost everything below R-L21


FTDNA now have the details for the primers for DF13 & DF63, hopefully they should be out soon.

Ymap for DF13
Ymap for DF63

Actually it looks like they already have the primer DF63 but until more is know about them it's best to order DF13 first followed by DF63 if necessary.

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
seferhabahir
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2012, 12:03:13 PM »

I noticed an odd YMap 'Comment' note (Bold) on the DF63. Is this the thought now?

Name: DF63
Type: snp
Description:
Source: other
Position: ChrY:2943986..2943986 (+ strand)
Length: 1
ISOGG_haplogroup: not listed
Mutation: T to C
YCC_haplogroup: Approx. hg: R-L21
allele_anc: T
allele_der: C
comments: Almost everything below R-L21


FTDNA now have the details for the primers for DF13 & DF63, hopefully they should be out soon.

Ymap for DF13
Ymap for DF63

Actually it looks like they already have the primer DF63 but until more is know about them it's best to order DF13 first followed by DF63 if necessary.


I think it is an erroneous duplication of the same comment for DF13
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