World Families Forums - R-L21: Three new subclades - Big Kahuna, DF13, and DF49, DF63

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Author Topic: R-L21: Three new subclades - Big Kahuna, DF13, and DF49, DF63  (Read 10604 times)
OConnor
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« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2012, 05:54:24 AM »

I hope to at least learn if I am from that large branch.

I just re-ordered DF13
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
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« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2012, 08:17:17 AM »

We are currently 0 for 29 on DF63.

Thomas Krahn mentioned in his email something like 0 for 50 on DF63 to date. So, if that trend continues, then perhaps we might be getting 100% DF13+ results and not learn too much.

Yes, I agree that would be bad.

Hopefully that is not the case, however.
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rms2
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« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2012, 08:49:50 AM »

The DF13 orders had already started at a steady trickle due to Thomas Krahn's Rootsweb post, but since I sent out a bulk email on the subject to the members of the R-L21 Plus Project, the floodgates have opened. I haven't counted them - and I am not going to - but there have been a lot of DF13 orders since my email went out.

Given Thomas' interest, I expect the first results to be back pretty soon.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2012, 07:00:26 PM »

This new DF13 test will tell us more about our deeper ancestry whether it maybe Continental or Isles, or both. According to FtDNA's SNP map, there is a well defined Continental L21 base along the Atlantic Europe. There is also a well defined core of L21 in the area of Luxembourg to Frankfurt downwards. It is known that during early historic times, Germanic tribes settled on either side of the lower Rhine and Celts along side its upper end. M269, L23, (L11 noticeably missing). U106 and P312, U152 also seems to dominate in this area and somewhat farther north along the lower Middle Rhine Valley and in France - Loire Valley stretching from the Atlantic to Central Region of France. HG's E1b1b1a1b's, G2a3b1's, I1 xSubclades, I2b's and J2b2's are found in these areas running up and down the Rhine into the Isles North Sea countries.

Keeping with minor generation cline movements during prehistory, the Upper Middle Rhine Valley, one can say that the natural landscape has been influenced by human settings since those days.  Especially the Romans, invading the Upper Middle Rhine Valley around 100 BC, left striking marks in the landscape that are lasting down to the present day. Romans used settlement structures as well as agricultural land use in terraced vineyards and on cleared plateaus. This could have caused some growth explosion for L21 but doesn't appear to have occurred here.

Will hope some of these guys from the Middle Rhine or Lorie areas test for DF13.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2012, 07:22:40 PM »

Well, in terms of the R-L21 Plus Project, it looks like almost everybody and his brother is ordering the DF13 test.

I will tell you all one thing: I am not over excited about sending out another bulk email urging members to test for this or that new SNP. Every time I send out a bulk email lately, I get deluged with emails, some of them polite and pleasant, but some of them quite the opposite. Some of them are downright nasty, accusing me of being a shill for FTDNA and trying to bamboozle them out of their money, etc.

I guess every type of body has to have at least one anus.

The sheer volume of emails I get in response to a bulk email is daunting enough, but the negative emails are really exasperating. Why belong to a project if you don't want the news on the latest tests connected with it?

Anyway, I am sending out yet another bulk email advising members how to opt out of receiving bulk emails. Here is the how-to part, in case any of those who don't want updates visit this forum (which I doubt).

To stop receiving bulk emails from the R-L21 Plus Project:

1. Go to your myFTDNA pages.

2. Click on "My Account" at the top left and then on "Personal Profile".

3. Click on "Account Settings".

4. Click on "Match and Email Settings".

5. Find "Project E-mail Settings" on the right. Click on the "No" button beneath "Subscribe to 'bulk' e-mails sent by my project administrators".

That should do it.


Apparently at least some of our project members think I work for FTDNA and get a commission for selling tests. HA! I wish that was the case, but I and the other project admins are just lowly, unpaid volunteers. When we send out a bulk email, it is simply because we think we have news our members would be interested in.

But I tell you what, I am developing a new reluctance about it.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2012, 07:57:44 PM »

Well, in terms of the R-L21 Plus Project, it looks like almost everybody and his brother is ordering the DF13 test.
...

Apparently at least some of our project members think I work for FTDNA and get a commission for selling tests. HA! I wish that was the case, but I and the other project admins are just lowly, unpaid volunteers. When we send out a bulk email, it is simply because we think we have news our members would be interested in.

But I tell you what, I am developing a new reluctance about it.

I will borrow your good idea of Opt Out precedure and add it to the end of my bulk emails from now on. One of my disappointments is seeing email returned to sender either because of an invalid email address or a mail proxy which the email receipent has not entered the Email domain of FtDNA.com causing it to bounce.

MJost

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2012, 08:13:32 PM »

On a followup post on RootsWeb
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-06/1338590500

Thomas posted this comment which bares reposting concerning two interesting facts.


"I forgot to mention that Greg Magoon and a group of non-commercial
researchers behind him have found DF13 by mining the 1000 genomes data
and we have confirmed the SNP with Sanger sequencing of samples below
R-L21. This SNP is in a completely un-touched region that seems to be
mutating more frequently than the most Yq segments (but is still
considered to be phylogenetically stable),
so chances are that we'll
discover new SNPs on the segment if we test many samples. As usual FTDNA
will tell you if we inadvertently find a new SNP on the tested segments
(at no charge).


Thanks to Greg and all the other researchers that spend their spare time
with digging through piles of public sequencing data. All the DF and Z
series markers wouldn't have been available by now without their help.
 
Thomas"
 
Note the 'Increased Mutation rate for this segment"???

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
cmblandford
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« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2012, 04:45:52 AM »

This SNP is in a completely un-touched region that seems to be
mutating more frequently than the most Yq segments (but is still
considered to be phylogenetically stable), so chances are that we'll
discover new SNPs on the segment if we test many samples.


DF13+.  Onward
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


Jdean
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« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2012, 05:37:42 AM »

This SNP is in a completely un-touched region that seems to be
mutating more frequently than the most Yq segments (but is still
considered to be phylogenetically stable), so chances are that we'll
discover new SNPs on the segment if we test many samples.


DF13+.  Onward

According to Ymap 104 results came back last night of which 103 were positive (including me).

The exception being kit no. N80403 who's also neg for DF63, so Mr L21**

I wonder if he planes to test for L459 & Z245 ?
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Mark Jost
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« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2012, 10:04:50 AM »

This SNP is in a completely un-touched region that seems to be
mutating more frequently than the most Yq segments (but is still
considered to be phylogenetically stable), so chances are that we'll
discover new SNPs on the segment if we test many samples.


DF13+.  Onward
According to Ymap 104 results came back last night of which 103 were positive (including me).

The exception being kit no. N80403 who's also neg for DF63, so Mr L21**

I wonder if he planes to test for L459 & Z245 ?
here is Bihop's cluster and closest GD

SS ID   Surname   Hg   Old World Country   Region   MDKAO   GD @27 Slow   GD @67   Variety   
fN80403   Bishop   R-L21*   England   IS Eng London   England, London   0   0   1313   
f94428   Meadows   R-L21   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin   0   6   1313   
f158189   Manion   R-L21   Ireland   IS Ire z unk   Ireland   3   16   1121   
                        
N80403   Thomas Bishop, c. 1770, London, England   R1b1a2a1a1b4   R-L21   DF13-, DF21-, DF23-, DF41-, DF63-, L2-, L20-, L21+, L371-, L513-, L554-, M222-, M37-, P312+, P314.2-, P66-, Z253-, Z255-               

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2012, 10:48:48 AM »

This SNP is in a completely un-touched region that seems to be
mutating more frequently than the most Yq segments (but is still
considered to be phylogenetically stable), so chances are that we'll
discover new SNPs on the segment if we test many samples.


DF13+.  Onward

According to Ymap 104 results came back last night of which 103 were positive (including me).

The exception being kit no. N80403 who's also neg for DF63, so Mr L21**

I wonder if he planes to test for L459 & Z245 ?

All of the Z255+ folks who tested for DF13 came back DF13+.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Jdean
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« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2012, 10:54:51 AM »

This SNP is in a completely un-touched region that seems to be
mutating more frequently than the most Yq segments (but is still
considered to be phylogenetically stable), so chances are that we'll
discover new SNPs on the segment if we test many samples.


DF13+.  Onward
According to Ymap 104 results came back last night of which 103 were positive (including me).

The exception being kit no. N80403 who's also neg for DF63, so Mr L21**

I wonder if he planes to test for L459 & Z245 ?
here is Bihop's cluster and closest GD

SS ID   Surname   Hg   Old World Country   Region   MDKAO   GD @27 Slow   GD @67   Variety   
fN80403   Bishop   R-L21*   England   IS Eng London   England, London   0   0   1313   
f94428   Meadows   R-L21   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin   0   6   1313   
f158189   Manion   R-L21   Ireland   IS Ire z unk   Ireland   3   16   1121   
                        
N80403   Thomas Bishop, c. 1770, London, England   R1b1a2a1a1b4   R-L21   DF13-, DF21-, DF23-, DF41-, DF63-, L2-, L20-, L21+, L371-, L513-, L554-, M222-, M37-, P312+, P314.2-, P66-, Z253-, Z255-               



Good to see other confirmed L21+ folk turning up there.

kits 44113, 44114, 23955, 231839, 210615, 176877 could also probably be added to this list.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 10:55:29 AM by Jdean » Logged

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Ysearch 3BMC9

Mark Jost
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« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2012, 11:18:17 AM »


Good to see other confirmed L21+ folk turning up there.

kits 44113, 44114, 23955, 231839, 210615, 176877 could also probably be added to this list.

Ok, who are these kits that are not in L21 spreadsheet?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Jdean
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« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2012, 11:44:43 AM »


Good to see other confirmed L21+ folk turning up there.

kits 44113, 44114, 23955, 231839, 210615, 176877 could also probably be added to this list.

Ok, who are these kits that are not in L21 spreadsheet?

Sorry, I should probably have posted links.

None of them are SNP tested but look to be reasonable matches.

kits 44113, 44114, 23955 are here

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/hale/default.aspx?section=yresults

kit 231839

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/thompson,thompson/default.aspx?section=yresults

kit 210615

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/lisle/default.aspx?section=yresults

and kit 176877

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/wilson/default.aspx?section=yresults
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
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Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Dubhthach
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« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2012, 02:37:34 PM »

We currently know the status of all current ISOGG SNP's under L21 other then L96+ and L371+ when it comes to DF13. Does anyone know if any L371+ are waiting on DF13? To get it on the ISOGG tree we will need to get someone from both of these clades to test DF13. Perhaps the L21+ project should considering sponsoring a DF13 test for these two clades?

-Paul
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ray jenkins
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« Reply #90 on: June 15, 2012, 08:02:32 PM »


My result for DF13 came back positive
 
Ray Jenkins (researching Martin surname)
Kit #207798
Ysearch, PS5JD
L21+, DF23+,DF13+
 
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #91 on: July 19, 2012, 09:13:04 PM »

Out of 16 DF49 tests, 14 are negative and two are positive, but those two are both DF23+.

We are currently 0 for 29 on DF63.

That's not that many DF49 tests yet.

Do we know for sure DF49 is not equivalent to DF23?

There are only a few things I really know for sure, but per our reports from the "anonymous researcher", whom I suspect we already know and is of great volunteer service to us all, there are DF49+ DF23- people (at least one) in the 1000 HG project.

As Seargent Schultz would say, "I know nothing." BTW, I have a Schulz (no "t") in lineage so that seems to be a family inclination. LOL

There are no DF49+/DF23- people in the 1000 Genomes Project, but the anonymous researcher has found such individuals in testing of his own set of samples, using conventional sequencing, confirming the placement of DF49 upstream of DF23.

Executive Summary: If you are R-DF13, please test DF49.

With all the other new developments of late, DF49 has not gotten the attention it deserves. Per the “anonymous researcher,” it is downstream of DF13 and upstream of DF23 (and thus M222). The perception is perhaps that DF49 is only relevant to DF23/M222+ folks, but in fact, we have no idea what a signature for R-DF49 might look like. Anyone who is R-DF13 might well be DF49+.

Per Thomas Krahn’s data, there have only been 41 DF49 tests, two of which are DF49+; presumably these are kits 91704 (Kelley) and N65918 (McKinley), both of which are DF13+ DF49+ DF23+.

It appears that Thomas started testing DF49 as part of WTY in May 2012, and to date, there have been no DF49+ WTY results.

The first requirement to place DF49 on the ISOGG tree is to find someone who is DF13+ DF49+ DF23-. This requires testing people who are currently listed as R-DF13 for DF49—all R-DF13 people are good candidates for the DF49 test.

We also might as well get started on the other testing required to put DF49 on the ISOGG tree. We need one person from each of the following categories to test DF49.

1.   R-DF23   Kits 91704 (Kelley), complete, DF49+. No other tests needed.
2.   R-L513   L513+, L193+, L706.2+, L705.2+, or P66+ tester needed.
3.   R-L96    Kit 176268 (Gontaut), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
4.   R-L144   L144+ tester needed.
5.   R-Z255   Kit 12757 (Shea), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
6.   R-Z253   Kit 146819 (Strahan), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
7.   R-DF21   Kit 145178 (Griffeth), in-progress. No other tests needed.
8.   R-L371   Kit 181160 (Thomas), in-progress. No other tests needed.
9.   R-DF41   Kit 29705 (McCown), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
10. R-L555    L555+ tester needed.

Please advise if you belong to one of the above categories and order DF49, or if you are aware of existing test results that meet one of the above requirements.

Regards,
david
dna@daver.info

« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 06:46:06 PM by df.reynolds » Logged
df.reynolds
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« Reply #92 on: July 19, 2012, 10:46:31 PM »

7.   R-DF21   DF21+, L720+, P314.2+, Z246+, DF25+, or DF5+ tester needed.

R-DF5 Kit 145178 (Griffeth) has ordered DF49, no additional R-DF21 testers needed; above post #91 modified to reflect this.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 10:48:46 PM by df.reynolds » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #93 on: July 22, 2012, 08:25:58 AM »

. . .

We also might as well get started on the other testing required to put DF49 on the ISOGG tree. We need one person from each of the following categories to test DF49.

1.   R-DF23   Kits 91704 (Kelley), complete, DF49+. No other tests needed.
2.   R-L513   L513+, L193+, L706.2+, L705.2+, or P66+ tester needed.
3.   R-L96    Kit 176268 (Gontaut), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
4.   R-L144   L144+ tester needed.
5.   R-Z255   Kit 12757 (Shea), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
6.   R-Z253   Kit 146819 (Strahan), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
7.   R-DF21   Kit 145178 (Griffeth), in-progress. No other tests needed.
8.   R-L371   L371+ tester needed.
9.   R-DF41   Kit 29705 (McCown), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
10. R-L555    L555+ tester needed.

Please advise if you belong to one of the above categories and order DF49, or if you are aware of existing test results that meet one of the above requirements.

Regards,
david
dna@daver.info




I think I may have taken care of those missing links above, if the representatives of those clades accept my offer of a DF49 test. I'll let you know as I hear from them.
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« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2012, 08:48:58 AM »

. . .

We also might as well get started on the other testing required to put DF49 on the ISOGG tree. We need one person from each of the following categories to test DF49.

1.   R-DF23   Kits 91704 (Kelley), complete, DF49+. No other tests needed.
2.   R-L513   L513+, L193+, L706.2+, L705.2+, or P66+ tester needed.
3.   R-L96    Kit 176268 (Gontaut), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
4.   R-L144   L144+ tester needed.
5.   R-Z255   Kit 12757 (Shea), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
6.   R-Z253   Kit 146819 (Strahan), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
7.   R-DF21   Kit 145178 (Griffeth), in-progress. No other tests needed.
8.   R-L371   L371+ tester needed.
9.   R-DF41   Kit 29705 (McCown), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
10. R-L555    L555+ tester needed.

Please advise if you belong to one of the above categories and order DF49, or if you are aware of existing test results that meet one of the above requirements.

Regards,
david
dna@daver.info




I think I may have taken care of those missing links above, if the representatives of those clades accept my offer of a DF49 test. I'll let you know as I hear from them.


Okay, you can scratch #8 (L371) above off your list of testers needed. Thomas, kit 181160, has ordered DF49.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 08:49:17 AM by rms2 » Logged

df.reynolds
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« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2012, 06:48:56 PM »

. . .

We also might as well get started on the other testing required to put DF49 on the ISOGG tree. We need one person from each of the following categories to test DF49.

1.   R-DF23   Kits 91704 (Kelley), complete, DF49+. No other tests needed.
2.   R-L513   L513+, L193+, L706.2+, L705.2+, or P66+ tester needed.
3.   R-L96    Kit 176268 (Gontaut), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
4.   R-L144   L144+ tester needed.
5.   R-Z255   Kit 12757 (Shea), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
6.   R-Z253   Kit 146819 (Strahan), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
7.   R-DF21   Kit 145178 (Griffeth), in-progress. No other tests needed.
8.   R-L371   L371+ tester needed.
9.   R-DF41   Kit 29705 (McCown), complete, DF49-. No other tests needed.
10. R-L555    L555+ tester needed.

Please advise if you belong to one of the above categories and order DF49, or if you are aware of existing test results that meet one of the above requirements.

Regards,
david
dna@daver.info




I think I may have taken care of those missing links above, if the representatives of those clades accept my offer of a DF49 test. I'll let you know as I hear from them.


Okay, you can scratch #8 (L371) above off your list of testers needed. Thomas, kit 181160, has ordered DF49.
Excellent, thanks for the update, Rich.

--david
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rms2
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« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2012, 07:26:18 PM »

You're welcome, David.

Now we have #2 above (L513) taken care of, as well.

Still awaiting replies from an L144+ guy and an L555+ guy.
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« Reply #97 on: July 23, 2012, 06:32:43 AM »

Okay, numbers 4 and 10 above are taken care of, as well. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, and Irvine, kit 22874, who is L555+, have ordered DF49.

Hooray!

I believe all the bases are covered now.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 06:33:06 AM by rms2 » Logged

df.reynolds
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« Reply #98 on: July 23, 2012, 09:55:07 AM »

Okay, numbers 4 and 10 above are taken care of, as well. Whelan, kit 83115, who is L144+, and Irvine, kit 22874, who is L555+, have ordered DF49.

Hooray!

I believe all the bases are covered now.
That is great, thanks again for taking care of this! Yes, other than finding an actual DF49+ DF23- result, all bases are covered.

I'm hoping at least one or two of the other existing subclades of DF13 (other than DF23) will turn out to be DF49+ as well. Ten subclades under DF13 is just too unwieldy...
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rms2
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« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2012, 11:17:50 AM »

You're welcome.

Well, now that my DF13+ result has come in, I've finally ordered Z253. (Did it today in time to go to the lab tomorrow.) Don't know how that will go.

If I get a negative result, maybe I will order DF49.
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