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Author Topic: Study reveals 'extraordinary' DNA of people in Scotland  (Read 6634 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2012, 06:50:13 PM »


I have the 1030-A-Sc(Scots) and 1511-T2 (Irish II) interclade common ancestor (according to Nordtvedt's tool with 67 length haplotypes) as being much older than 1000 BC, more like 1500 BC (EDIT by MW).

Huh?

Oops, Yes.  More like 1500 BC to 2000 BC so not that much older, but we are reaching back towards the time of L21's MRCA so I don't think the 1511-T2/South Irish and 1030-A-Scots are much more closely related than to each other than most of the rest of L21, DF49/DF23/M222 excepted.
That wasn't Wilson's point.  He was arguing that STR 43 and 47 were related and they are.  But the tie to the S Irish is a key point, regardless of the exact date ( I only worked with 37 dys loci),  If they do, genetically, merge with the S. Irish and maybe it was closer to 1000 BC and O AD, that makes them non-picts?  His argument is that the scots modal never came from nor was in Ireland!

p.s.  My estimate of the time of convergence (not the origin) of the the 3 modals is a least time since I am working with dys loci which probably have mutated many more times than just once over the course of two plus centuries.  I have publicly acknowledged earlier that estimates of over 2K years are very questionable, my point is that they are of one lineage and not as Wilson claims.

The old R1bSTR designations are obsolete. They were assigned based on 37 STRs and without knowledge of SNPs like L21.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-09/1190211238

What cluster or SNP does R1bSTR43 represent? Is it Irish Type II?  or something else? I don't have confirmation of this.

I know this nomenclature is no longer in use.  It was created by Dr. John McEwan, one of the earlier rootsweb contributors, like Leo Little and John Heald, all of whom I have great respect for.  His web site is still available, but hasn't been kept up to date.  you can find all his modals at: www.mcewanjc.org/p3modal.htm.

Some of his R1b STR's had names, some didn't.  47 is the scots modal. ...

Right. I got it that the R1bSTR47 is the Scots Modal.  Can I get confirmation on what R1bSTR43 is?  You cited it in one of your earlier posts, but what is it? It's hard to reply to a post when we don't what something is in modern terms.

It has off-modals of  391=10 440=30 464=15,15,16,17 CDY=36,38  but that isn't a great match with any L21 group I know of. I just checked and added the L21 modals equal value from R1bSTR43 of YCAII=19,23 and I don't get one, not a one single haplotype of 6000 that matches R1bST43.

I think R1bSTR43 is more of a P312*, U152 or some other kind of thing, not L21.  I can see why some might think R1bSTR43 is related to the Scots Modal with YCAII=19,24 being the Scots and 19,23 being these guys.  However, this just appears to be convergence or some other non L21 noise. Unfortunately, R1bSTB43 is not L21+ while the Scots guys are.

Who came with this R1bSTR43 and R1bSTR47 relationship hypothesis?  I hope this hypothesis isn't the current Scotland DNA book.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 06:53:11 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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ironroad41
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« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2012, 07:02:39 AM »

Your old buddy Nordtvedt named the scots modal.  McEwan created a list based on the types of haplotypes available.  It was created prior to 2007, so you can judge what it is related to based on the nomenclature available at that time.  The 49 or so STR's covered the range of variation in haplotypes native to scotland.  I don't think R - L21 had been discovered yet.

These came up in this conversation because those are the two groups Wilson used in his argument as being related (and I agree they are) but he discounted the South Irish relationship.  You'd have to ask him why he chose these two to make his Pictish argument, it's not at all clear to me?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 07:03:48 AM by ironroad41 » Logged
chris1
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« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2012, 08:52:51 AM »

Is R1bSTR43 possibly related to the L21+ 'Little Scottish Cluster'? I remember the R1bSTR43 cluster being mentioned in the same breath a long time ago. I found this very old pdf, written by S. Colson back in 2007, a year before L21 was discovered.

http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/071304_Journal_Colson.pdf

Also a site by A. Williamson:

http://littlescottishcluster.com/
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2012, 08:58:59 AM »

Is R1bSTR43 possibly related to the L21+ 'Little Scottish Cluster'? I remember the R1bSTR43 cluster being mentioned in the same breath a long time ago. I found this very old pdf, written by S. Colson back in 2007, a year before L21 was discovered.

http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/071304_Journal_Colson.pdf

Also a site by A. Williamson:
http://littlescottishcluster.com/

If it is that would make some sense. I was originally fooled (actually it was Colson's idea) that the Little Scots were related to the 1030-Scots (Scots modal.) They have 3 or 4 off-modals common between the two.

However, DF21 blew that concept up.  The Little Scots are DF21+ while the 1030-Scots are DF21-.  They are not closely related as DF21 is quite old.

If Ironroads thinks L21 is pre-Neolithic then the split between DF21+ and the the Scots modal people should be pre-Neolithic too.  

Think of like this.  STR signatures for the P314.2 are vastly different than the Scots Modal people with such things as the very slow 388=13 off modal for the P314.2 people.  P314.2 is a subclade of DF21 so the Little Scots are more closely related to the P314.2 people than to the Scots modal people.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 08:15:31 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Heber
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« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2012, 06:07:04 AM »

Forget about Swords and Ploughshares, the real cause of the agricultural revolution demographic explosion was the invention of porridge. This extract is from a very interesting article by Alistair Moffat in this weeks Scotsman.

"Around c3,000BC, when the new techniques of farming arrived in Scotland, porridge changed the world. When cereals were grown, the ripe ears could be mashed into a pappy and nourishing porridge that did not need to be chewed. The birth interval halved and populations began to explode as farming was adopted. If its techniques were spread by men, then their DNA would have been at the heart of this explosion. And our DNA evidence confirms a very rapid spread of the male lineage, R1b-M269, at this time. That may well be the reason why our statistics show this imbalance either side of c3,000BC – how the invention of porridge changed Scotland."

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/scotland/scotland-s-dna-tracing-the-nation-s-ancestral-history-1-2465715
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/15/scotland-dna-study-project?newsfeed=true
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 06:16:08 AM by Heber » Logged

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2012, 06:21:49 AM »

Interesting idea, obvious before Walter Raleigh cursed us by introducing the potatoe Oats was the standard cash crop in Ireland. As a result stuff like Porridge etc formed a critical part of average irish person  up until the 18th century.

Still 3,000BC for M269 in scotland? Doesn't sound right to me, he's obviously going off the idea that M269 spread is tied to Neolithic, let we still haven't seen any ancient-DNA from that period containing M269+, it's all haplogroup G and I.
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Heber
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« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2012, 06:38:15 AM »

Here is another extract from the Edinburgh Book Festival. Interesting that he claims that genetic diversity is a result of geographic periphary.

http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2012/08/edinburgh-international-book-festival-alistair-moffat/

"Following this, the Ice Age ensued, resulting in northern populations fleeing southwards to escape its grip. On the journey back to Scotland following the thaw, it appears that “All Scots were briefly English”, although we were also informed that Scotland is one of the most diverse nations on earth in terms of DNA. Part of the reason for this is that we are about as far North west as you can go, so simple geography meant that people stopped here.
 
But his most entertaining fact offered as a reason for population growth from 3000 BC was an unexpected one – porridge. It appears to Moffat from his research that simply by men settling down to farming rather than being hunter-gatherers, and growing porridge which could then be fed to infants, women were able to wean babies more quickly. This meant that any birth interval partly the result of breastfeeding was shortened, and more people were born.
 
This is a bold book. Or at least the claims made for it are very bold. Moffat began his talk by claiming that “This book encompasses the whole of history.” It is a clever use of scientific knowledge combined with social history to explain where we Scots might have come from. Magnus Linklater suggested that it was also a way of linking history and mythology in there too, which Moffat agreed with. (Sensible to agree with someone who apparently has Viking roots…)"
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Heber


 
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Mkk
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« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2012, 06:51:19 AM »

Quote
Scotland is one of the most diverse nations on earth in terms of DNA.
...Not really. It's Celtic and a little bit Germanic, nothing unusual or "diverse".
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2012, 07:03:16 AM »

Quote
Scotland is one of the most diverse nations on earth in terms of DNA.
...Not really. It's Celtic and a little bit Germanic, nothing unusual or "diverse".

Aye but having that on back of a book cover won't sell as many books ;)
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Heber
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« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2012, 08:41:12 AM »

Quote
Scotland is one of the most diverse nations on earth in terms of DNA.
...Not really. It's Celtic and a little bit Germanic, nothing unusual or "diverse".

Here is the context of the claim to diversity:

"Any thumbnail sketch of the constituent parts of Scotland’s identity might have included Celts, Picts, a scatter of Vikings, maybe some Irish immigrants and one or two other groups. And dark-haired people are often confidently informed that they are descended from shipwrecked sailors from the Spanish Armada. The reality is startlingly different. There are in fact no fewer than 100 
different male and female lineages present in the modern population. Scotland turns out to be a tremendously 
diverse nation.

Like the first pioneers who came after the ice, every Scot is an immigrant, and fascinating questions revolve around the time our people arrived and where they came from. For example, we have tested men whose male lineage originated in the ancient kingdom of Thrace on the Black Sea, the home of the gladiator-hero, Spartacus. We have men from the Roman province of Illyria on the Adriatic. Further afield, there are men and women from Siberia whose ancestors lived on the banks of the Yenesei River that flows into the Arctic.

There are Scots with an ancient lineage from Anatolia, and also one man whose marker came from the medieval West African kingdom of Denanke. We have Saracens from the Near East and women from the biblical kingdom of Sheba on either side of the Red Sea. The list is long and it is a national mosaic of glittering, exotic complexity."
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glentane
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« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2012, 11:48:09 AM »

Forget about Swords and Ploughshares, the real cause of the agricultural revolution demographic explosion was the invention of porridge.
and for a Very Long Time Indeed that porridge would have been made from some kind of barley, possibly bere or at the most some kind of maslin.
Oats AFAIK were a norse introduction to Scotland, and even (einkorn & emmer) wheat was a fussy, delicate latecomer.
And I'll bet they put more than just salt on it :). I eat barley porridge now and then and it's a distinctive taste, not bland like oats.

Lucky for us that it was barley, and that it rains all the time.
The non-F1 longstraw varieties they had harvested late, and were easily knocked down by the incessant wind. Leading not infrequently to a situation where it would have been harvested slightly green, or even beginning to sprout, a british eccentricity noted by one classical writer.

No problem, stick it up in the house-roof spread on mats, and let the perpetual turf/wood fire dry and smoke it.
Rub it up in a saddlequern, lob it into a big old pot of water stood in the ashes and it'll be just grand in the morning.
Build up the fire the next day to get it nice and boiling for a bit, eat some, keep the rest for later under a lid.
Sometimes that "later" turned out to be "days later". After it had gone a bit funny.
Eventually they learned to strain off the solids, and just keep the lovely Falling-Down-Water.

Although in truth I expect brewing was always part of the farming "package". Along with smelly cheeses, and cake.
And people wonder why allegedly "huntergatherer" mtDNA starts turning up more frequently in the later neolithic groups? Probably had to beat them off with a stick :D
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rms2
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« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2012, 11:53:51 AM »

I can't recall: has soup been attributed to Neolithic farmers or does it predate them?

Its preparation breaks things down for the more delicate digestive systems of young children and the elderly. Surely its invention contributed to population growth.
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Jean M
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« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2012, 12:40:46 PM »

Boiling edible stuff up in a pot started way before farming - at least among the pottery-makers of the Far East and Africa. Boiling in a clay-lined pit was also possible, using stones heated in a fire.   
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inver2b1
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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2012, 12:46:35 PM »

How did Irn Bru end up in Scotland?
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« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2012, 01:14:34 PM »

How did Irn Bru end up in Scotland?

It didn't, it started there.
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chris1
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« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2012, 01:33:32 PM »

How did Irn Bru end up in Scotland?

It didn't, it started there.
How about Pizza Crunch?
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Castlebob
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« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2012, 01:40:39 PM »

What about deep fried Mars bars? I think they might be contributing to potential population dips!
Cheers,
Bob
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« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2012, 02:49:13 PM »

Boiling edible stuff up in a pot started way before farming - at least among the pottery-makers of the Far East and Africa. Boiling in a clay-lined pit was also possible, using stones heated in a fire.   

Our lot boiled stuff in tight baskets, using hand-shaped clay balls for the hot rocks (in an area that didn't have proper rocks).  Archaeologists call them Poverty Point Objects.
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glentane
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« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2012, 03:14:19 PM »

How did Irn Bru end up in Scotland?
Long story short?
Calvinism, the textile industry and Robert Murdoch.

PM me, for increasingly o/t details :)
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2012, 02:22:03 AM »

Samuel Johnson famously referred (disparagingly) to this staple in his dictionary definition for oats:

"A grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland supports the people."

I know this well because I have a two volume 1768 Third Edition of his dictionary sitting on my desk at home. I have no way to officially prove its provenance, but I bought those two volumes from a very nice lady in France 30 years ago, who I struck up a conversation with on a transatlantic flight to Paris. She told me she was a distant relative of Madame du Barry, last mistress of Louis XV of France, and that she inherited a piece of Madame du Barry's personal library where the dictionary resided. She agreed to sell them to me after some brief back and forth about Samuel Johnson and his legacy.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 02:26:32 AM by seferhabahir » Logged

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« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2012, 07:45:34 AM »

I know this nomenclature is no longer in use.  It was created by Dr. John McEwan, one of the earlier rootsweb contributors, like Leo Little and John Heald, all of whom I have great respect for.  His web site is still available, but hasn't been kept up to date.  you can find all his modals at: www.mcewanjc.org/p3modal.htm.

Some of his R1b STR's had names, some didn't.  47 is the scots modal.

In the mid 2000's with John and others, rootsweb was a much more interesting site.


I often wonder about him. He was a real power in genetic genealogy a few years ago, and a real nice guy, as well.

He was working on his PhD in something related to the dna of sheep and cattle, last I heard.

It was weird how a black hole just seemed to open up and swallow him.

Here he is:

http://www.otago.ac.nz/genetics/staff/mcewan.html

Been a busy fellow in his chosen field of academia, too.
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mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Mark Jost
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« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2012, 11:05:08 AM »

,,,
Build up the fire the next day to get it nice and boiling for a bit, eat some, keep the rest for later under a lid.
Sometimes that "later" turned out to be "days later". After it had gone a bit funny.
Eventually they learned to strain off the solids, and just keep the lovely Falling-Down-Water.


Beer, helping populate europe since 10K BC!

Beer is one of the world's oldest prepared beverages, possibly dating back to the early Neolithic or 9500 BC, when cereal was first farmed,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Castlebob
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« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2012, 01:38:51 PM »

Beer...At last we're discussing something I know about!
Cheers,
Bob
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« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2012, 10:16:24 PM »

Maybe that's how porriage was invented...some beer mash didn't work out..so someone said.."don't waste it".."throw some milk on it and give to the kids" ;)

edit: Monday is my birthday turning 58. With that..I think I'll have a beer.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 10:26:47 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2012, 10:41:13 PM »

Maybe that's how porriage was invented...some beer mash didn't work out..so someone said.."don't waste it".."throw some milk on it and give to the kids" ;)

edit: Monday is my birthday turning 58. With that..I think I'll have a beer.

Well, let me wish you a happy birthday now, in case I forget.

I think mead was probably the first alcoholic drink. Think of it: mix some honey and water, let a little wild yeast kiss it (or maybe some yeast already present in the honey), give it a few days of foaming and bubbling, let it sit until the sediment drops to the bottom, and - voila! - it's party time.

When I make it, of course, I use champagne yeast, but that's another story.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 11:52:09 AM by rms2 » Logged

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