World Families Forums - Study reveals 'extraordinary' DNA of people in Scotland

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 22, 2014, 04:40:26 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Study reveals 'extraordinary' DNA of people in Scotland
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Study reveals 'extraordinary' DNA of people in Scotland  (Read 6849 times)
Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« on: April 20, 2012, 03:17:55 AM »

Interesting story on the BBC about the Scottish DNA project. I am trying to find the details of the study.
It appears to use ine Illumnia platform and sequences over 200 mtDNA SNPs and over 200 Y Chrosomone SNPs. Interesting comments on DNA diversity on the periphery of Europe, the age of L21, the Stewart line and the impact of the Dublin Viking Slave market.

"The Scotland's DNA project, led by Edinburgh University's Dr Jim Wilson, has tested almost 1,000 Scots in the last four months to determine the genetic roots of people in the country.

The project discovered four new male lineages, which account for one in 10 Scottish men.

It also found that actor Tom Conti is related to Napoleon Bonaparte.

Scotland's DNA was set up by Dr Wilson along with historian Alistair Moffat, the current rector of St Andrews University.

Using new technology, scientists were able to pinpoint a participant's DNA marker, from which they tracked the person's history and lineage.

Conti and Napoleon both share the M34 marker, which is Saracen in origin.

The project found that Scotland has almost 100 different groups of male ancestry from across Europe and further afield.

More than 150 different types of female DNA from Europe, Asia and Africa were discovered.

Royal line
Researchers believe that Scotland's location could be a factor in the "astonishing and unique" origins of people from the country.

In a statement, Dr Wilson and Mr Moffat said: "Perhaps geography, Scotland's place at the farthest north-western end of the European peninsula, is the reason for great diversity.

"For many thousands of years, migrants could move no further west. Scotland was the end of many journeys."

Scotland's DNA also found that more than 1% of all Scotsmen are direct descendants of the Berber and Tuareg tribesmen of the Sahara, a lineage which is around 5600 years old.

Royal Stewart DNA was confirmed in 15% of male participants with the Stewart surname. They are directly descended from the royal line of kings.

Scientists believe comedian and presenter Fred MacAuley's ancestors were slaves, sold at the great slave market in Dublin in the 9th Century, despite his name suggesting a Viking heritage.

They said MacAuley's slave ancestor was taken by ship to the Hebrides and had an affair with his owner's wife, thereby intruding DNA into the MacAulay line.

Scotland's DNA will soon be renamed Britain's DNA as the project aims to widen its genetic study to include the English, Welsh and Irish."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17740638

http://www.scotlandsdna.com/about.html

http://www.scotlandsdna.com/blog.html

"The owner of an uncommonly rich and characterful singing voice, Donnie Munro, lead vocalist of Runrig, carries the most common Y chromosome DNA marker in Scotland. It is S145, the quintessential Celtic marker and it is shared with hundreds of thousands of Irishmen, Welshmen and Englishmen. S145 originated in prehistoric times and may have been present and multiplying in Scotland for 5,000 years. It is a reminder that before waves of invasions by Romans, Anglo-Saxons and Normans, the British were a Celtic people who spoke dialects of Celtic languages. Given his fluency in Gaelic and his political sympathies, it may well be a matter of pride for Donnie Munro to belong to a large group who could fairly call themselves the Common Celtic Man."
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 05:31:49 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



gtc
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 238


« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2012, 05:16:45 AM »

Quote
"Scotland's DNA will soon be renamed Britain's DNA as the project aims to widen its genetic study to include the English, Welsh and Irish".

That's interesting to learn. l see from their privacy policy that they intend to release the project's SNP data to other researchers, which is great. I also look forward to the huge datasets that will emerge from the People of the British Isles project.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Mark Jost
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 707


« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 10:52:12 AM »

This is a 4 part www.scotsman.com news series titled:

Scotland's DNA: Who do you think you are

By Alistair Moffat

Scotland's DNA: Who do you think you are - Part One

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-s-dna-who-do-you-think-you-are-part-one-1-1494783

DNA – deoxyribonucleic acid – is the basis of life. Its molecular structure was discovered in 1953, revealing how it carries all the genetic information needed for organisms to live and reproduce.

Scientists describe it in sequences of letters, and humans inherit three billion from each of their parents. As generations move from place to place, distinctive DNA markers are carried by each and every one of us. In a programme of pioneering research at Edinburgh University, Dr Jim Wilson has been gathering samples of DNA from Scots across the country and this week, in a new book by Alistair Moffat, and in a series of features in The Scotsman, we discover what his innovative work has revealed – and where the Scots came from. Day 1 looks at our origins. …

Part Two

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-s-dna-who-do-you-think-you-are-part-2-1-1503107

Part Three

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-s-dna-in-search-of-a-lost-tribe-part-three-1-1503264

Part Four

http://www.scotsman.com/news/arts/scotland-s-dna-who-do-you-think-you-are-part-4-1-1503458
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
inver2b1
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2012, 11:46:04 AM »

They make a lot of conclusions; how do they know that mans ancestor was a slave?
Also the intro on their site claims the people who done cave painting in France were in the I clade M284. Very big shot in the dark.
Logged

I-L126
H3
razyn
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 406


« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2012, 12:01:51 PM »

Those of us who don't test through Jim Wilson's lab might need to know that when he says "S145," it's what most people posting to the R1b and Subclades forum call L21.
Logged

R1b Z196*
Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2012, 01:44:23 PM »


I have read, The Scots a Genetic Journey, by Alistair Moffat and Dr. Jim Wilson.
It contains a number of useful Haplogroup maps associated with the four nations of Scotland, Gaels, Picts, Vikings and Saxons as well as the original Mesolithic settlers..
I have included relevant extracts below and a link to the maps.
R1b1b2a1a2f2 (M222)
“As a result of a process coyly termed social selection, scientists have identified an old lineage in Ireland dating from around 400 to 500. Known as M222, it is astonishingly common. No less than 20 per cent of all Irish men carry it! Its distribution is heavily weighted to the north with 40 percent in Ulster, 30 per cent in Connaught and 10 – 15 percent in in Munster and Leinster. No less than a fifth of all Irish men are directly descended from one man who lived 1,500 years ago”.
“Given the distribution of the marker and its bias to Ulster and especially to men with the O’Neill and O’Donnell surnames, there exists a clear candidate. The O’Neill kindred dominated Irish history from the fifth to the tenth centuries and their founder was the High King known as Niall Noigiallach”.
“Lord Turlough O’Donnell who died in 1423, carried on the family tradition with gusto. He had 14 sons and 59 male grandchildren.”
“More than 50,000 Scottish men, most of them with the surname MacDonald or its varients, are the direct decendents of Semerled. The first Lord of the Isles and founder of Clan Donald, he ruled the Hebrides and was King of the Isle of Man”.
“Did it (the M222 marker) cross the sea with the war bands of Fergus Mor mac Erc and his ancestors? There is uncompromising evidence that it did. More than 6 percent of all Scottish men carry M222, around 150,000 are direct decendents of Niall, the High King of the Irish. The frequency of the marker is very pronounced on the west with 9 per cent and less in the east with 3 per cent on the axis from Galloway to Shetland. It occurs very often amongst men with ancient Scottish surnames and whose family trees can, in some cases, be traced back over three centuries. Those in Scotland with the M222 marker are not recent immigrants and their high incidence and geographic spread indicate a large scale movement of people – probably mainly from Ulster and probably around AD 500”.

http://www.box.net/shared/gsbm92c2ri

The frequencies of the M222 Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
“Other Irish specific markers from the period around AD 500 can be found in Scotland and their presence reinforces a sense of colonization. S168 (M226) is relatively rare and strongly concentrated around the River Shannon where it is now found in Tipperary and Limerick. This was once the territory of the Dalcassian clans, the decendents of the great High King Brian Boru. S169 (L159.2) is most common in Leinster, the lands of the Lagin clans, and it too is found in Scotland, especially amongst men with the surnames Beattie and Ferguson”.
“The genetic and political divide between incomers and natives also had cultural facets. The Dalriadans spoke Irish Gaelic, Q-Celtic, while the Picts spoke P-Celtic and it appears that the languages were not mutually intelligible. When St Columba attempted to bring the Word of God to the Picts, it had to be translated”.
“A marker has been identified that is essentially unique to Scotland and rarely found elsewhere. It is known as R1b-str47 or R1b-Pict and around 10% of Scottish men carry it. In our towns and villages 250,000 Picts are quietly going about their daily lives. The distribution of the marker broadly matches the Pictish territory and where later incursions such as Dalriada Gaels and the Vikings overlaid it, the numbers are diluted.It is well represented in the east of Scotland above the Forth but much less so in Northern and Western Isles. R1b-Pict is at least 3,000 years old and possibly even older and is a subgroup of S145 (L21)”.

http://www.box.net/shared/b5x3szygr4

http://www.box.net/shared/dk4zyrft7p

Clockwise from left to right:
The frequencies of the S28 (U152) 'Eastern side' Y or chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
The frequencies of the S145-str47 ‘Pictish’ Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
The frequencies of the M17 'Viking' Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
“In Orkney, 20 per cent of men carry carry the Y chrosomone marker R1a-M17 and its frequency in Norway is 30 per cent. It is much rarer in the south and west of Scotland and England reaching about 4 per cent, and it looked a likely candidate for the Norse or Viking marker”.
“Now it appears that S145 (L21)(R1b1b2a1a2f) also travelled along these (Atlantic) trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France or northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. This was not a wave of migration but a series of small movements over time, probably in the millennium between 2,500 BC and 1,500 BC”.
“Also more common in eastern Britain, S28 (U152) originated in the lands around the Alps, south-east France and northern Italy and then spread across what is now Germany. Because of the relative imprecision of the Y-chromosome molecular clock, geneticists have occasionally urged precaution in comparing these samples of modern populations”.
“In addition to the M284 marker, another lineage found its way to Scotland from the Ice Age Refuges and the painted caves in southern France and northern Spain. M26 accounts for only 12,000 or so Scots men, around 0.5 per cent of the total population, and is one of the oldest lineages still to be found. M423 has a similar frequency to M26 with around 20,000 Scots men carrying the marker and it is another founding lineage. Those Scots who carry the M423 marker are most certainly descended from the survivors of Doggerland”.

Dr Jim Wilson concludes the book by stating:
“There is a new revolution taking place in genetics whereby the DNA of entire genomes can be read cheaply – all six billion letters of the genetic code. Once we make sense of all this information, it will provide a level of detail far beyond that which we have today, potentially identifying the very fjord a Viking set sail from, and building a family tree for all Scots and all mankind. My six billion letter sequence was completed last week and we will begin the analysis tomorrow.”
I would agree and look forward to future developments.
Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Jarman
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 58


« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2012, 03:40:30 PM »

I have read, The Scots a Genetic Journey, by Alistair Moffat and Dr. Jim Wilson.

Does their work include any mention of R-L23* in Scotland? Some have speculated a Roman origin, but I don't recall seeing any ties to the Antonine Wall.
Logged
stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 03:44:50 PM »

I dont see anything about U106.Why is that?
Logged
whoknows
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 125


« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 06:28:05 PM »

We must presume they did not yet assess that 'Germanic'  element of Scotland's population, no doubt Dumfries will be revealed as a vipers nest of R U106 as it was of course settled by Friesians :)
Logged
Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2012, 06:31:07 PM »

I dont see anything about U106.Why is that?

@Stoneman, Jarman,

Unfortunately I did not pay too much attention to U106 and R-L23* as it is not my defining mutations. I want first to understand the direct line sequence from M269 to L21 and its many subclades. I am also seperated (for a few months) from my copy of the book, so I cannot easily check this for you. If I have learned anything from this it is:
1) Read all this stuff on Kindle
2) Pay more attention to parallel clades
 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 06:32:41 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2012, 07:43:56 AM »

They make a lot of conclusions; how do they know that mans ancestor was a slave?
Also the intro on their site claims the people who done cave painting in France were in the I clade M284. Very big shot in the dark.


I agree.

Scotland's DNA is a private company that is the latest incarnation of the former Ethnoancestry.

Meaning no disrespect to either Dr. Jim Wilson or Alistair Moffat, but I noticed in the past that Ethnoancestry advertised its wares with some rather sensational claims about its ability to connect dna test results to ethnic or tribal identity. Now Scotland's DNA seems to be carrying on that tradition.
Logged

ironroad41
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 09:00:41 AM »

I agree with your comments.  I had an interchange with Dr. Wilson re: whether clan gregor are scots or picts.  He believes, and it may be in his results (?), that the clans such as Gregor, Buchanan, MacMillan, R1b of Clan Donald etc. are Picts.  I don't agree with that assessment and have traced them and the Campbells to the SE Irish.  I believe the distinguishing differentiation between a Pict and a Scotti is the 10 At 391 for the scottis and the 11 for the Picts.  We shall see?
Logged
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2012, 09:16:44 AM »

I agree with your comments.  I had an interchange with Dr. Wilson re: whether clan gregor are scots or picts.  He believes, and it may be in his results (?), that the clans such as Gregor, Buchanan, MacMillan, R1b of Clan Donald etc. are Picts.  I don't agree with that assessment and have traced them and the Campbells to the SE Irish.  I believe the distinguishing differentiation between a Pict and a Scotti is the 10 At 391 for the scottis and the 11 for the Picts.  We shall see?
That's interesting. I wonder if Dr. Wilson only considers those Scots who are M222+ as descendants of Gaels. Gee, that's a bit too narrow.

It sounds like these folks are just trying to sell something definitive, when the reality is far more complex.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2012, 09:45:37 AM »

Nationality,ethnicity and DNA are different things. We can only say e.g. L21 is most common in previously Celtic speaking areas. P-Celtic was also spoken in Ireland and Q- in Britain. We don't know exactly for what reason as these were inscriptions.   
Logged
ironroad41
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2012, 10:02:59 AM »

I think you should check your sources?  P Celtic (see wikipedia) is Pictish/Gaulish while Q celtic is irish/goidelic.

If the standing stones of Brittany and Aberdeen are related then they are probably Pictish.  Goidelic I trace back to the Netherlands/Belgium region and then the LaTene culture in Switzerland.  In Caesars book the conquest of Gaul, he mentions Belgic, Gaulic and Aquitaine (q celtic, p celtic and possibly basque?) languages.
Logged
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2012, 10:12:04 AM »

I agree with your comments.  I had an interchange with Dr. Wilson re: whether clan gregor are scots or picts.  He believes, and it may be in his results (?), that the clans such as Gregor, Buchanan, MacMillan, R1b of Clan Donald etc. are Picts.  I don't agree with that assessment and have traced them and the Campbells to the SE Irish.  I believe the distinguishing differentiation between a Pict and a Scotti is the 10 At 391 for the scottis and the 11 for the Picts.  We shall see?

Which types of Campbell, Buchanan, etc. are you referring to? There are several STR signature varieties, just within L21. There are 21-NW Irish M222+, 21-425null DF21+, 11-13 L513+, and 9919-A types, but the vast majority of the very numerous L21 Campbell's and Buchanan's are 1030-A-Sc (Scots modal) types.

Who are you tracing to Southeast Ireland? or are you talking about a specific variety of people?
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
inver2b1
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2012, 10:12:35 AM »

I agree with your comments.  I had an interchange with Dr. Wilson re: whether clan gregor are scots or picts.  He believes, and it may be in his results (?), that the clans such as Gregor, Buchanan, MacMillan, R1b of Clan Donald etc. are Picts.  I don't agree with that assessment and have traced them and the Campbells to the SE Irish.  I believe the distinguishing differentiation between a Pict and a Scotti is the 10 At 391 for the scottis and the 11 for the Picts.   We shall see?

Isn't this a massive over simplification?
Logged

I-L126
H3
A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2012, 10:21:32 AM »

I said 'also' meaning it was not the main language.
Logged
ironroad41
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2012, 10:23:25 AM »

I agree with your comments.  I had an interchange with Dr. Wilson re: whether clan gregor are scots or picts.  He believes, and it may be in his results (?), that the clans such as Gregor, Buchanan, MacMillan, R1b of Clan Donald etc. are Picts.  I don't agree with that assessment and have traced them and the Campbells to the SE Irish.  I believe the distinguishing differentiation between a Pict and a Scotti is the 10 At 391 for the scottis and the 11 for the Picts.  We shall see?

Which types of Campbell, Buchanan, etc. are you referring to? There are several STR signature varieties, just within L21. There are 21-NW Irish M222+, 21-425null DF21+, 11-13 L513+, and 9919-A types, but the vast majority of the very numerous L21 Campbell's and Buchanan's are 1030-A-Sc (Scots modal) types.

Who are you tracing to Southeast Ireland? or are you talking about a specific variety of people?

Scots Modal folks.  Which I believe traces back to SE Irish?
Logged
ironroad41
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2012, 10:32:11 AM »

I agree with your comments.  I had an interchange with Dr. Wilson re: whether clan gregor are scots or picts.  He believes, and it may be in his results (?), that the clans such as Gregor, Buchanan, MacMillan, R1b of Clan Donald etc. are Picts.  I don't agree with that assessment and have traced them and the Campbells to the SE Irish.  I believe the distinguishing differentiation between a Pict and a Scotti is the 10 At 391 for the scottis and the 11 for the Picts.   We shall see?

Isn't this a massive over simplification?

It may be but I believe the 10/11 issue splits the Celts/Gauls.  I think the SE Irish is the home of the dalriadic scots who invaded scotland c. 400-500 AD.  The Picts were a separate group who were also driven out of Northwest France by Rome and settled the east coast of Scotland.  They had also previously been in the NE part of what is now Ireland but that was an earlier migration?

In each of the Dalriadic clans like clan gregor there are quite a few entries with the 11/10 or 10/10 for the clan Gregor who all appear to be related to the first king of Scotland, Alpin.  They are descendants of the DalRiadic scots.
Logged
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2012, 10:42:01 AM »

If the standing stones of Brittany and Aberdeen are related then they are probably Pictish.

Pictish appears to be related to other P-Celtic languages, but that does not mean that they are all Pictish. Pictish was not spoken in Brittany, which was colonised by southern Britons speaking Brittonic. Breton todaty is most closely related to Cornish.

 
Quote
Goidelic I trace back to the Netherlands/Belgium region and then the LaTene culture in Switzerland.

You may do, but linguists don't. Goidelic has more conservative features than P-Celtic such as Gaulish. Its origins are old than La Tene, which in fact seems to be the culture which first developed P-Celtic.

Quote
In Caesars book the conquest of Gaul, he mentions Belgic, Gaulic and Aquitaine (q celtic, p celtic and possibly basque?) languages.

Yes to Aquitainian = precursor to Basque.

No to Belgic people speaking Goidelic. Their place and personal names in the Belgic areas of both Gaul and Britain were P-Celtic. In fact their version  of P-Celtic seems close to Brittonic. There could be (and were) different varieties of P-Celtic.  
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 10:43:16 AM by Jean M » Logged
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2012, 11:59:00 AM »

I agree with your comments.  I had an interchange with Dr. Wilson re: whether clan gregor are scots or picts.  He believes, and it may be in his results (?), that the clans such as Gregor, Buchanan, MacMillan, R1b of Clan Donald etc. are Picts.  I don't agree with that assessment and have traced them and the Campbells to the SE Irish.  I believe the distinguishing differentiation between a Pict and a Scotti is the 10 At 391 for the scottis and the 11 for the Picts.  We shall see?

Which types of Campbell, Buchanan, etc. are you referring to? There are several STR signature varieties, just within L21. There are 21-NW Irish M222+, 21-425null DF21+, 11-13 L513+, and 9919-A types, but the vast majority of the very numerous L21 Campbell's and Buchanan's are 1030-A-Sc (Scots modal) types.


Didn't Dr. Wilson attribute the Scots cluster folks as descendants of Picts? Or was that another subclade of L21?
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



ironroad41
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2012, 01:01:09 PM »

I agree with your comments.  I had an interchange with Dr. Wilson re: whether clan gregor are scots or picts.  He believes, and it may be in his results (?), that the clans such as Gregor, Buchanan, MacMillan, R1b of Clan Donald etc. are Picts.  I don't agree with that assessment and have traced them and the Campbells to the SE Irish.  I believe the distinguishing differentiation between a Pict and a Scotti is the 10 At 391 for the scottis and the 11 for the Picts.  We shall see?

Which types of Campbell, Buchanan, etc. are you referring to? There are several STR signature varieties, just within L21. There are 21-NW Irish M222+, 21-425null DF21+, 11-13 L513+, and 9919-A types, but the vast majority of the very numerous L21 Campbell's and Buchanan's are 1030-A-Sc (Scots modal) types.


Didn't Dr. Wilson attribute the Scots cluster folks as descendants of Picts? Or was that another subclade of L21?
Yes.  I just don't happen to agree; but its still iffy until we get some more autosomal data?
Logged
ironroad41
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2012, 01:07:28 PM »

If the standing stones of Brittany and Aberdeen are related then they are probably Pictish.

Pictish appears to be related to other P-Celtic languages, but that does not mean that they are all Pictish. Pictish was not spoken in Brittany, which was colonised by southern Britons speaking Brittonic. Breton todaty is most closely related to Cornish.

 
Quote
Goidelic I trace back to the Netherlands/Belgium region and then the LaTene culture in Switzerland.

You may do, but linguists don't. Goidelic has more conservative features than P-Celtic such as Gaulish. Its origins are old than La Tene, which in fact seems to be the culture which first developed P-Celtic.

Quote
In Caesars book the conquest of Gaul, he mentions Belgic, Gaulic and Aquitaine (q celtic, p celtic and possibly basque?) languages.

Yes to Aquitainian = precursor to Basque.

No to Belgic people speaking Goidelic. Their place and personal names in the Belgic areas of both Gaul and Britain were P-Celtic. In fact their version  of P-Celtic seems close to Brittonic. There could be (and were) different varieties of P-Celtic.  

My comments, right or wrong, were developed trying to trace the Dalriadic scottish origins.  I am pretty sure they were Q celtic and thus I have assumed their ancestors spoke the same language?  I have little expertise in linguistics nor am not a historian. I'm just trying to interpret the trail of Y STR's and their implications. There is really very lilttle historical to go on, and much of what does exist requires interpretation such as what did Caesar really mean?
Logged
ironroad41
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2012, 01:20:09 PM »

I agree with your comments.  I had an interchange with Dr. Wilson re: whether clan gregor are scots or picts.  He believes, and it may be in his results (?), that the clans such as Gregor, Buchanan, MacMillan, R1b of Clan Donald etc. are Picts.  I don't agree with that assessment and have traced them and the Campbells to the SE Irish.  I believe the distinguishing differentiation between a Pict and a Scotti is the 10 At 391 for the scottis and the 11 for the Picts.  We shall see?

Isn't this a massive over simplification?

It may be but I believe the 10/11 issue splits the Celts/Gauls.  I think the SE Irish is the home of the dalriadic scots who invaded scotland c. 400-500 AD.  The Picts were a separate group who were also driven out of Northwest France by Rome and settled the east coast of Scotland.  They had also previously been in the NE part of what is now Ireland but that was an earlier migration?

In each of the Dalriadic clans like clan gregor there are quite a few entries with the 11/10 or 10/10 for the clan Gregor who all appear to be related to the first king of Scotland, Alpin.  They are descendants of the DalRiadic scots.

Now that the Dalriadic scots are accounted for?  I would like to discuss some of the other entries at Clan Gregor, since it is one of the highland melting pots.  The FtDNA site managed by Dr. Richard McGregor, gives a snapshot of the genetic complexity of Scotland.  There are Gregors/Gregorys/McGregorys who appear to be pictish and may descend from Giric, grandson of Alpin? (very speculative).  There are the Irish entries with the 25 at 390 among other mutations, many are 226.  I and Richard are Z 253+.  There are E's, I's, J's and so on.  The highlands is where integration occurred c. 900 AD to 1400 AD.  It was invaded but never conquered until Culloden and the Gaelic way of life in Scotland was changed forever.  Today, the clan system is strong and proud and all the other cultures have been pretty much assimilated.  So as your remark said - it is simplistic, but it really describes one piece - the Scottis!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 01:22:04 PM by ironroad41 » Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.141 seconds with 19 queries.