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Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 47837 times)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #450 on: March 07, 2013, 02:58:40 AM »

I liked the word "clan" too, but have been scolded, once by a Dutchman and once by a Frenchman, that are in my haplogroup.  I ended up with more neutral terminology because the last people I want to lose are the continentals.
They feel like the word "clan" is some kind of Irish thing that excludes them.
I don't know. I'm just reporting my experience.

I think you may use this word also for continental people. Also in Etruscan “clan” does mean “son”: plural: clenar. Of course I haven’t studied the possible link between the Celt and the Etruscan word, but I wouldn’t exclude a possible link. Someone said that Celt *p- from *kw- was due to Etruscan influence.
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Maliclavelli


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Larry Walker
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« Reply #451 on: March 07, 2013, 04:51:20 AM »

Clann is a good term, after all in Irish it actually means "Children" eg. Children of Dubhthach = Clann Uí Dhubhthaigh (aka. The Duffy's). In sense we are all "Children" of Mr. DF41+ the first man that the SNP arose in....

I liked the word "clan" too, but have been scolded, once by a Dutchman and once by a Frenchman, that are in my haplogroup.  I ended up with more neutral terminology because the last people I want to lose are the continentals.

They feel like the word "clan" is some kind of Irish thing that excludes them.

I don't know. I'm just reporting my experience.

Personally, I'll stick with Clan DF41. We have our token  French kit (we paid for the test) and, if other continentals aspire to the honor of being a member of Clan DF41 - then we are a tolerant lot and they are welcome to join. If they are not equally tolerant, then they must have different genes and maybe we don't want them anyway?

Cheers,
Larry Clan DF41
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 04:59:28 AM by Larry Walker » Logged
Dubhthach
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« Reply #452 on: March 07, 2013, 05:18:44 AM »

Clann is a good term, after all in Irish it actually means "Children" eg. Children of Dubhthach = Clann Uí Dhubhthaigh (aka. The Duffy's). In sense we are all "Children" of Mr. DF41+ the first man that the SNP arose in....

I liked the word "clan" too, but have been scolded, once by a Dutchman and once by a Frenchman, that are in my haplogroup.  I ended up with more neutral terminology because the last people I want to lose are the continentals.

They feel like the word "clan" is some kind of Irish thing that excludes them.

I don't know. I'm just reporting my experience.

Ironic as it's a loan word originally from Latin that arrived in Irish via Brythonic! (Old Welsh!)

---
From Old Irish cland ("children, family, offspring"), from Old Welsh plant ("children"), from Latin planta ("shoot, twig, sprout").
---

Early loanwords from Welsh/Latin often underwent a sound change to fit the fact that archaic Irish didn't have a P sound. (P is found in modern irish in loan words).

As a result St. Patrick was originally known in Irish as:

Cothraige, which eventually gave way to modern Irish: Pádraig / Pádraic

The original name obviously been the Latin: Patricius

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rms2
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« Reply #453 on: March 17, 2013, 07:37:54 AM »

Robert Casey spotted another likely DF41+ who appears to be in the cluster (41-1123) I share with David Samuel, Dick Webb, Chuck Self, Paul Cooper, the Beddoes, Jim Price, Scott Mayson, and others. He is a Dugger, kit 154617. I'm trying to arrange to get him tested for DF41. He has 111 str markers already, so it seems he might be enthusiastic enough to go for it. I think Dugger is a Scots surname.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/dugger/results

« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 07:38:08 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #454 on: March 22, 2013, 04:48:47 PM »

I see that McConnell, kit 57001, and Simpson, kit 127844, are DF41+.

I see there are other SNP results, as well, but I am in Mountshannon, Ireland, tonight and not at my home computer, so I cannot do much. Moving folks around will have to wait until I get back home on Wednesday or Thursday.

After a rocky start this morning, including some dismal weather and getting lost a couple of times, we had a great time. What a beautiful place! The people are super. Driving on the left and from what for me is the passenger's side of the car are real challenges. They are exacerbated by Irish "roundabouts" and some of the narrowest roads I've ever seen, but I'm doing okay.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #455 on: March 22, 2013, 09:25:38 PM »

Enjoy your time there!

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
seferhabahir
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« Reply #456 on: March 22, 2013, 10:55:10 PM »

Enjoy your time there!

MJost

Hey, I'm going to Australia soon. Wonder if there are any DF41 people there. Might be. They all drive on the wrong side of the road there, too. I think I'll leave the driving to others, and just take the trains.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #457 on: March 23, 2013, 06:13:49 AM »

I see that McConnell, kit 57001, and Simpson, kit 127844, are DF41+.

I see there are other SNP results, as well, but I am in Mountshannon, Ireland, tonight and not at my home computer, so I cannot do much. Moving folks around will have to wait until I get back home on Wednesday or Thursday.

After a rocky start this morning, including some dismal weather and getting lost a couple of times, we had a great time. What a beautiful place! The people are super. Driving on the left and from what for me is the passenger's side of the car are real challenges. They are exacerbated by Irish "roundabouts" and some of the narrowest roads I've ever seen, but I'm doing okay.

Driving in Italy I had same experience but in reverse, didn't help that I kept putting my left hand into the side of door everytime I wanted to shift gears!

Rural roads tend to be quite tight, however for any "inter-city" travel stick to the Motorways (M18, M6, M7 etc.) which have bluesigns. They are all fairly new built in last 5 years or so. (Motorway = Freeway).

You spending most of time down in and around Clare or ye going travel around abit? The weather is atrocious, we had leaking in our office server room yesterday it was that bad. Even for Ireland this is bad weather for March.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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F James
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« Reply #458 on: March 24, 2013, 12:00:50 AM »

Enjoy your time there!

MJost

Hey, I'm going to Australia soon. Wonder if there are any DF41 people there. Might be. They all drive on the wrong side of the road there, too. I think I'll leave the driving to others, and just take the trains.


Of course we will have DF41 people in Australia,  we were a Britsh colony, but getting them to test is the difficult part.
Its the LEFT side of the road to us here in Aus,  same as the UK.
I just got back from Thailand,  and  they drive on the left aswell.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 12:03:13 AM by F James » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #459 on: March 28, 2013, 01:40:42 PM »

I see that McConnell, kit 57001, and Simpson, kit 127844, are DF41+.

I see there are other SNP results, as well, but I am in Mountshannon, Ireland, tonight and not at my home computer, so I cannot do much. Moving folks around will have to wait until I get back home on Wednesday or Thursday.

After a rocky start this morning, including some dismal weather and getting lost a couple of times, we had a great time. What a beautiful place! The people are super. Driving on the left and from what for me is the passenger's side of the car are real challenges. They are exacerbated by Irish "roundabouts" and some of the narrowest roads I've ever seen, but I'm doing okay.

Driving in Italy I had same experience but in reverse, didn't help that I kept putting my left hand into the side of door everytime I wanted to shift gears!

Rural roads tend to be quite tight, however for any "inter-city" travel stick to the Motorways (M18, M6, M7 etc.) which have bluesigns. They are all fairly new built in last 5 years or so. (Motorway = Freeway).

You spending most of time down in and around Clare or ye going travel around abit? The weather is atrocious, we had leaking in our office server room yesterday it was that bad. Even for Ireland this is bad weather for March.

-Paul
(DF41+)

We hung around the West and Southwest but moved around a bit. I got used to driving on the left and from the right side of the car so that it seemed like second nature by the second or third day or so. It got easier each day. We had to travel some narrow country lanes to go where we wanted to go and see what we wanted to see, however. I found myself scrunching my shoulders together every time I saw a big truck coming, as if that would make my car narrower.

Beautiful countryside. I'm glad we tooled around out in the country and avoided the cities (for the most part). We did, however, spend a whole day walking around in Galway, which we loved. We were walking along the water when a couple of seals bobbed up and started following us. I guess they were hoping we'd throw them some fish or something. My daughter got an enormous thrill out of that.

There's lots more to tell. My favorite spot was the Half Barrel Pub in Whitegate, County Clare, in the evenings. Loved it. Just thinking about it makes me hungry and thirsty.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #460 on: March 28, 2013, 02:55:40 PM »

Seals come into the mouth of Corrib a fair bit. It's a major Salmon fishery, Lough Corrib is just 4-5miles north of city center and is biggest lake in Republic (second biggest on island). Always plenty of fly fishing going on in the city center, so it's no wonder the seals take their portion as well.

Galway is a great place, then again as a "Tribesman" (Galway native) I would say that!

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #461 on: March 28, 2013, 05:21:25 PM »

Seals come into the mouth of Corrib a fair bit. It's a major Salmon fishery, Lough Corrib is just 4-5miles north of city center and is biggest lake in Republic (second biggest on island). Always plenty of fly fishing going on in the city center, so it's no wonder the seals take their portion as well.

Galway is a great place, then again as a "Tribesman" (Galway native) I would say that!

-Paul
(DF41+)

You have a lot to be justifiably proud of. We all loved Galway, and I am not normally a fan of cities. We went to Galway Cathedral, which was just lovely, and another big church not far from it. I don't recall the name of the second church right off hand, but it had a big grotto outside with a statue of the Blessed Virgin. Perhaps you know the one I am talking about.

We attended Palm Sunday Mass in the little church in Whitegate, however. The folks back at our home church will be envious.

I really enjoyed the little town of Ennistimon, with the river Inagh running through it just behind the main street. Beautiful place. We went into the Super Valu there, bought some drinks, and strolled around town.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 08:46:37 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #462 on: April 01, 2013, 02:36:04 PM »

Swanson, kit 99735, and his closest match, Burns, kit 63274, both now have DF41 on order. I believe they are in that same 1410V cluster that McConnell, kit 57001, our recently-minted DF41+, is in. Like McConnell, Swanson has a CTS2501+ result from Geno 2.0.

Swanson traces his mdka to Sweden, but Burns is a Scot with an mdka from Northern Ireland.
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #463 on: April 06, 2013, 05:12:29 PM »

DF41, CTS2501, CTS11440, L247 status

Cross-Posted.

The GENO2 results for N51747 Arthur raised the possibility that L247 might be downstream of DF41, and might be specific to 41-1426.

That now appears not to be the case as representatives from all of the major DF41 clusters have tested negative for L247 as follows:

57001, McConnell, not clustered
143035, Stewart, 41-744 (L745+)
176148, Duffy, 41-1013
59080, Stevens, 41-1123
35212, Creer, 41-1411 (L563+)
240201, Walker, 41-1426C*
78799, Smith, 41-1426C-A

GENO2 results also indicated that CTS2501 is associated with DF41. 57001 McConnell has now tested DF41+, increasing the likelyhood that CTS2501 is equivalent to or upstream of DF41, though a possibility of child status does remain.

This also brings CTS11440 into play as a possible child of DF41, and considerably broadens the possible bounds of DF41 while pushing its possible age back another couple of centuries.

Now, we go back to waiting for more results.

Cheers,
Larry Walker
240201 DF41+
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rms2
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« Reply #464 on: April 07, 2013, 08:04:07 AM »

DF41, CTS2501, CTS11440, L247 status

Cross-Posted.

The GENO2 results for N51747 Arthur raised the possibility that L247 might be downstream of DF41, and might be specific to 41-1426.

That now appears not to be the case as representatives from all of the major DF41 clusters have tested negative for L247 as follows:

57001, McConnell, not clustered
143035, Stewart, 41-744 (L745+)
176148, Duffy, 41-1013
59080, Stevens, 41-1123
35212, Creer, 41-1411 (L563+)
240201, Walker, 41-1426C*
78799, Smith, 41-1426C-A

GENO2 results also indicated that CTS2501 is associated with DF41. 57001 McConnell has now tested DF41+, increasing the likelyhood that CTS2501 is equivalent to or upstream of DF41, though a possibility of child status does remain.

This also brings CTS11440 into play as a possible child of DF41, and considerably broadens the possible bounds of DF41 while pushing its possible age back another couple of centuries.

Now, we go back to waiting for more results.

Cheers,
Larry Walker
240201 DF41+

Bettcher, kit B2895, and Swanson, kit 99735, are both CTS2501+ and are awaiting DF41 results. Swanson's closest 67-marker match (60/67), Burns, kit 63274, has also ordered DF41. I don't see a positive result for CTS11440 for either Bettcher or Swanson. Burns hasn't done the Geno 2.0 thing.

Arthur is apparently not a member of the R-L21 Plus Project.

Where can I see his SNP results?
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #465 on: April 07, 2013, 10:03:30 AM »

Swanson has joined the DF41 project. I've put him in the "Pending group" until his DF41 result comes in. When it comes to GD in the project his closest match is with McConnell with a GD of 13 @ 67STR's.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #466 on: April 08, 2013, 11:18:56 AM »

Swanson has joined the DF41 project. I've put him in the "Pending group" until his DF41 result comes in. When it comes to GD in the project his closest match is with McConnell with a GD of 13 @ 67STR's.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I asked Swanson and Bettcher to join and invited them to our Facebook group, as well. I guess I'll be red faced if something goes sideways with CTS2501, but I hope it doesn't.
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rms2
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« Reply #467 on: April 18, 2013, 07:30:52 AM »

Swanson, kit 99735, and his closest 67-marker match (60/67), Burns, kit 63274, are both DF41+ as of this morning. Swanson already had a CTS2501+ from Geno 2.0.

FTDNA has to work some more y-dna from a second vial for Bettcher, who is also CTS2501+, so his DF41 result is still pending.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #468 on: April 18, 2013, 08:47:41 AM »

Swanson and Burns both appear to belong to Mike's 1410V variety which also contains McConnell.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #469 on: April 18, 2013, 10:50:05 PM »

I asked Swanson and Bettcher to join and invited them to our Facebook group, as well. I guess I'll be red faced if something goes sideways with CTS2501, but I hope it doesn't.
The way I look at it is either way they are pertinent to the project.
1) CTS2501 may be equivalent to DF41 or
2) CTS2501 may be an important subdivider of DF41 or
3) CTS2501 may be immediately upstream which perhaps means the project needs to be renamed but these people are all more closely related to each other than to the rest of DF13.

It's all good.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 10:52:41 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #470 on: April 20, 2013, 09:52:49 PM »

I asked Swanson and Bettcher to join and invited them to our Facebook group, as well. I guess I'll be red faced if something goes sideways with CTS2501, but I hope it doesn't.
The way I look at it is either way they are pertinent to the project.
1) CTS2501 may be equivalent to DF41 or
2) CTS2501 may be an important subdivider of DF41 or
3) CTS2501 may be immediately upstream which perhaps means the project needs to be renamed but these people are all more closely related to each other than to the rest of DF13.

It's all good.

I agree. It means we get something out of Geno 2.0 that we did not expect.

I'm hoping the situation is your #1 above, which would help us pick up some more DF41+ guys. It already has done that with McConnell, Swanson, and Burns, actually.
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #471 on: April 29, 2013, 12:21:49 PM »

29705 (DF41+) got his GENO2 results: CTS2501+, CTS11440-, L247-
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rms2
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« Reply #472 on: April 29, 2013, 07:55:42 PM »

29705 (DF41+) got his GENO2 results: CTS2501+, CTS11440-, L247-


The evidence mounts.
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« Reply #473 on: April 30, 2013, 12:01:30 AM »

29705 (DF41+) got his GENO2 results: CTS2501+, CTS11440-, L247-

Do we know if, or do we have CTS1440 and L247 tests in progress for an L563+ person and an 744+ person?
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #474 on: April 30, 2013, 04:19:05 AM »

29705 (DF41+) got his GENO2 results: CTS2501+, CTS11440-, L247-

Do we know if, or do we have CTS1440 and L247 tests in progress for an L563+ person and an 744+ person?

See notes on tree at http://rangebiome.org/ClanDF41.jpg which is a permalink to a tree that is periodically updated.

CTS2501: Not found in any other subclades of DF13 yet, and scattered from top to bottom in DF41. Looking more and more like a phylogenetic equivalent for DF41.

CTS11440: See positioning in tree and distribution of CTS2501+'s who have tested negative for CTS11440. Probably private or unstable and not worth testing for unless/until it crops up in another GENO2 result.

L247: Negative test results in all major clusters. Appears unstable or private, at least as far as DF41 is concerned.
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