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Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 34923 times)
Dubhthach
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« Reply #300 on: October 14, 2012, 04:16:38 AM »

Any DF41+ folks who have ordered Geno 2.0 and who plan on sharing?

--david
* * *
The Geno 2.0/WTY Summary Table  was updated to include the additional folks who have indicated they have a Geno 2.0 test pending. 36 L21+ people so far.

No one from the "Little Four" (L96, L144, L371, L555) have indicated they are testing yet. Of the "Big Six," there is pretty good representation, except for DF41, where there are no pending results listed at this time. There is even one DF63 kit on the list!

If you are L21+, have ordered Geno 2.0, and want to share your Y-SNP results with the user community when they are available, please send your kit number to me at geno@daver.info and I will add you to the summary table.

Regards,
david


As far as I know no none have. I'm planning on ordering in the new year -- have a family vacation to the Philippines coming up, that and I want to allow the first round of testing + research paper to come out -- see what it shakes out of the trees.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #301 on: October 14, 2012, 05:56:59 AM »

As far as I know no none have. I'm planning on ordering in the new year -- have a family vacation to the Philippines coming up, that and I want to allow the first round of testing + research paper to come out -- see what it shakes out of the trees.

-Paul
(DF41+)

OK, good to know. I'm certainly not trying to talk anyone else into buying a test right now, just trying to catalogue in advance what I can expect to see those first hectic days when results start coming in. :)

--david
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OConnor
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« Reply #302 on: October 14, 2012, 01:09:41 PM »

David

I read some mention of National Geographic, and I'm a little confused.
Should I order the geno 2 through Genographic or FTDNA?

I thought maybe I should log into the NationalGenographic site, but I am not at home and I don't have my genographic login id at hand.



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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


df.reynolds
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« Reply #303 on: October 14, 2012, 04:32:11 PM »

Geno 2.0 is currently only available via the National Geographic website.

Rumor has it that it will eventually be available through the FTDNA site, but that remains just a rumor.

-david
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Peter M
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« Reply #304 on: October 15, 2012, 08:24:26 PM »

Geno 2.0 is currently only available via the National Geographic website.

Rumor has it that it will eventually be available through the FTDNA site, but that remains just a rumor.

-david

Possibly when they have the IT services in place to present it as integrated with their other products. $:-)
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #305 on: October 16, 2012, 11:20:31 AM »

R1b-L21>DF13>DF41* guys with 111 markers
f47694   MacMillan
f176148   Duffy
f35212   McCrere
f240201   Walker
f29705   McCown


111(94) Markers   Sheet  Mutation Rate:

 STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY,YCAII,395S1 & 413

L21 ALL (111Markers) 
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=1048

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP   Max  VAR   

SD
114.6   32.1  3,438.8  963.5  4,402.3  12.738  3.569


R1b-L21>DF13>DF41*
YrsPerGen*  Count
30   N=5

Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  Max  VAR   

SD

105.3  21.4  3,158.1  643.3  3,801.4  24.100  4.909


            

TRUE MRCA  InterClade AB Founder      
Pooled SD Clades  A & B  Interclade

YrsPerGen*
30

Interclade GAB: L21* for L21 ALL (111Markers) & R1b-L21>DF13>DF41*


Founder'sAge  Generations  StdDevInGen  YBP  +-YBP  PooledVar   

PooledSD
   
113.4  22.3  3,402.3  667.7  25.964  5.095

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Peter M
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« Reply #306 on: October 16, 2012, 12:42:27 PM »

I'm currently revitalising my map generation software to generate geographical maps (coloured pins on google maps) as an alternative presentation of the information in the results sheet on L257.org.

Are there any people in the DF41 world interested in helping constructing a map for DF41 and subgroups ??

My intention is to include both tested DF41+ and strong candidates (as per the current results sheets) to get as much geo information as possible. The first version will be static (snapshot from the live google maps display on my PC), in a later phase I might put the dynamic version (with clickable pins and all google maps functions available) online.

One thing would be to agree on a colouring schema (which subgroup gets which pin colour), but by far the most important issue would be to get people to publish a reasonable origin as part of their FT-DNA profile. It's nice to have a place name, but to generate a map, a set of geographical coordinates (latitude + longitude) is needed.

If a placename is known, these coordinates can be obtained via e.g. itouchmap.com/latlong.html (enter place name in the field "address" at the top en click "go"; the results (the one with the decimal point !!) will appear in the fields "latitude" and "longitude"). Please keep in mind longitudes west of Greenwich are negative; ignoring this might place your pin in the middle of the North Sea).
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 01:10:12 PM by Peter M » Logged
Peter M
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« Reply #307 on: October 16, 2012, 12:57:22 PM »

BTW, looking at maps, it appears to me that in the two subgroups of L21 I've looked at (DF49 and DF41) all members who give a US origin, specify an origin in the EASTERN half of the US (East Coast + Colonies). No exception. Would there be a pattern here ??
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #308 on: October 16, 2012, 01:59:01 PM »

BTW, looking at maps, it appears to me that in the two subgroups of L21 I've looked at (DF49 and DF41) all members who give a US origin, specify an origin in the EASTERN half of the US (East Coast + Colonies). No exception. Would there be a pattern here ??

I would imagine it maps to the large migration that occurred during the mid 18th century from the likes of Northern half of Ireland as well as Scotland. In an american context you hear the term "Scots-Irish" to denote migration of Ulster Protestants (descendants of Scots Planters of 17th century) who migrated in large numbers to American colonies, particulary in the 1740's.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #309 on: October 16, 2012, 06:08:47 PM »

BTW, looking at maps, it appears to me that in the two subgroups of L21 I've looked at (DF49 and DF41) all members who give a US origin, specify an origin in the EASTERN half of the US (East Coast + Colonies). No exception. Would there be a pattern here ??

I would imagine it maps to the large migration that occurred during the mid 18th century from the likes of Northern half of Ireland as well as Scotland. In an american context you hear the term "Scots-Irish" to denote migration of Ulster Protestants (descendants of Scots Planters of 17th century) who migrated in large numbers to American colonies, particulary in the 1740's.

-Paul
(DF41+)

There was little westward migration in the U.S. of Irish/Scottish/English until after the 1803 Louisiana Purchase. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Purchase

Most who are interested in genealogy enough to purchase a DNA test can trace their ancestry that far back, or at least far enough to give them an eastern U.S. ancestor.
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razyn
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« Reply #310 on: October 16, 2012, 06:21:19 PM »

Most European immigrants to (what has become) the USA arrived on the east coast, not the west.  Tracing ancestors to ports of entry we tend to come to a sort of line in the sand, thereabouts.  Some few came through other ports -- such as New Orleans and Galveston -- but I guess their descendants aren't L21.  Lots of us aren't.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 11:20:37 AM by razyn » Logged

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Larry Walker
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« Reply #311 on: October 16, 2012, 06:30:17 PM »

I'm currently revitalising my map generation software to generate geographical maps (coloured pins on google maps) as an alternative presentation of the information in the results sheet on L257.org.

Are there any people in the DF41 world interested in helping constructing a map for DF41 and subgroups ??

My intention is to include both tested DF41+ and strong candidates (as per the current results sheets) to get as much geo information as possible. The first version will be static (snapshot from the live google maps display on my PC), in a later phase I might put the dynamic version (with clickable pins and all google maps functions available) online.

One thing would be to agree on a colouring schema (which subgroup gets which pin colour), but by far the most important issue would be to get people to publish a reasonable origin as part of their FT-DNA profile. It's nice to have a place name, but to generate a map, a set of geographical coordinates (latitude + longitude) is needed.

If a placename is known, these coordinates can be obtained via e.g. itouchmap.com/latlong.html (enter place name in the field "address" at the top en click "go"; the results (the one with the decimal point !!) will appear in the fields "latitude" and "longitude"). Please keep in mind longitudes west of Greenwich are negative; ignoring this might place your pin in the middle of the North Sea).


http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4Nh9UENAPftDDRhYynBR8mhN7rMl-pnHjibNSle3BFXXoDqaEBRxtIH3l8o9BL_lvGWFHQpS_PHJdYzgh_gyAS25UP4l_A/Y_DNA_TOOLS%20-%20A%20Location%20Tutorial%20for%20Newbies.pdf
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razyn
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« Reply #312 on: October 17, 2012, 01:35:09 PM »

I don't want to interfere with all the discussions going on here, but as it's a very nice small group, I'm currently using DF41 as a test case for the next version of my presentation software (used on L257.org). I *do* hope, this is permitted $:-)

There are two things that appear to me:

(1) There has been a little discussion about the "age" of DF41. I guess, DF41 will turn out to consist of a number of more or less tight clusters with a significant distance between them and it might be far more appropriate to discuss the "age" of each of these clusters individually. The combined age of DF41 is interesting from a historical point of view of course, but possibly much less so than the age of the individual clusters.

(2) The cluster that rms2 is in, I tend to call it the Stevens Cluster for clarity - $:-), screams for a 111 marker result to compare to the other clusters. One might get the impression, there's not really any good reason left to not ..... $;-)

I'm responding to an older message because I think a stitch has been dropped here, and it's esthetically better to pick up the knitting before some of the current pattern got started.  Not that a sweater knitted by a committee is ever going to look as if it had been well thought out in advance.

Anyway, on other threads I've mentioned geneticist Hans van Vliet's recent forays into the field of pairwise mismatch analysis.  (Those threads were about R1b-DF27; Z220; and, just today, about Interclades for the DF13 Big Six.)  Today he has brought up a new refinement tool, Linkage Disequilibrium, on this thread:  http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=11409.0

One of the three examples he used there is DF41 -- I'm cross-referencing it here so that you DF41 guys won't miss the discussion (if any ensues).  More or less coincidentally he has lately run the pairwise mismatch numbers for DF41, for one of its sub-clusters (happily, the cluster that includes rms2), and for its downstream SNP L744.  Here is what he said about them in an email I received today:

Quote
I looked at the posts you mentioned in earlier emails and worked on some data.
The DF41 that [might] interest Rich Stevens produced the following mean pwmm's:

Df41    13.8    aka 2.7K ybp
the DYS385=11 group of DF41    7    aka 1.3K ybp
L744    6.3    aka 1.2K ybp

I highlighted the mean pairwise mismatch figures in red.  He has calculated them (from haplotype data in Mike's spreadsheet) using the Arlequin software package.  Then he has a formula to convert that into a TMRCA date (expressed in Kybp).  I'm reluctant to get into that, as it requires thinking like a Dutch mathematician and I don't easily do that.  But I have actually used it and gotten his results.

The DYS385b=11 group (so far) includes persons names Stev(ph)ens, Selfe, Cooper, and Webb.  Hans's method dates their split from the much older DF41 to roughly 700 AD.

And btw this constitutes another example of the relative stability of an apparent RecLOH event in the allegedly "fast" mutating, palindromic marker DYS385.  I had previously argued that (stability) in connection with my own little group (L484+ guys under Z220), which is of very similar age and has the oddball values 10,11 at that same DYS385 locus.
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Peter M
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« Reply #313 on: October 17, 2012, 07:48:04 PM »


Quote from: Mozilla Firefox V15.0.1
Document Not Found

The document you requested could not be found.
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rms2
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« Reply #314 on: October 18, 2012, 07:08:00 AM »

I don't want to interfere with all the discussions going on here, but as it's a very nice small group, I'm currently using DF41 as a test case for the next version of my presentation software (used on L257.org). I *do* hope, this is permitted $:-)

There are two things that appear to me:

(1) There has been a little discussion about the "age" of DF41. I guess, DF41 will turn out to consist of a number of more or less tight clusters with a significant distance between them and it might be far more appropriate to discuss the "age" of each of these clusters individually. The combined age of DF41 is interesting from a historical point of view of course, but possibly much less so than the age of the individual clusters.

(2) The cluster that rms2 is in, I tend to call it the Stevens Cluster for clarity - $:-), screams for a 111 marker result to compare to the other clusters. One might get the impression, there's not really any good reason left to not ..... $;-)

I'm responding to an older message because I think a stitch has been dropped here, and it's esthetically better to pick up the knitting before some of the current pattern got started.  Not that a sweater knitted by a committee is ever going to look as if it had been well thought out in advance.

Anyway, on other threads I've mentioned geneticist Hans van Vliet's recent forays into the field of pairwise mismatch analysis.  (Those threads were about R1b-DF27; Z220; and, just today, about Interclades for the DF13 Big Six.)  Today he has brought up a new refinement tool, Linkage Disequilibrium, on this thread:  http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=11409.0

One of the three examples he used there is DF41 -- I'm cross-referencing it here so that you DF41 guys won't miss the discussion (if any ensues).  More or less coincidentally he has lately run the pairwise mismatch numbers for DF41, for one of its sub-clusters (happily, the cluster that includes rms2), and for its downstream SNP L744.  Here is what he said about them in an email I received today:

Quote
I looked at the posts you mentioned in earlier emails and worked on some data.
The DF41 that [might] interest Rich Stevens produced the following mean pwmm's:

Df41    13.8    aka 2.7K ybp
the DYS385=11 group of DF41    7    aka 1.3K ybp
L744    6.3    aka 1.2K ybp

I highlighted the mean pairwise mismatch figures in red.  He has calculated them (from haplotype data in Mike's spreadsheet) using the Arlequin software package.  Then he has a formula to convert that into a TMRCA date (expressed in Kybp).  I'm reluctant to get into that, as it requires thinking like a Dutch mathematician and I don't easily do that.  But I have actually used it and gotten his results.

The DYS385b=11 group (so far) includes persons names Stev(ph)ens, Selfe, Cooper, and Webb.  Hans's method dates their split from the much older DF41 to roughly 700 AD.

And btw this constitutes another example of the relative stability of an apparent RecLOH event in the allegedly "fast" mutating, palindromic marker DYS385.  I had previously argued that (stability) in connection with my own little group (L484+ guys under Z220), which is of very similar age and has the oddball values 10,11 at that same DYS385 locus.

Thanks for that post, razyn. I haven't been here at the forum for a couple of days because I have been too doggoned busy.

It's interesting. Can't say I completely understand it, but it is interesting.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 07:08:20 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #315 on: October 18, 2012, 07:42:48 AM »

I might regret mentioning this, but I started a Facebook R-DF41 group, if anyone is interested. There are a few of us on it already. It's pretty slow moving right now, but if you use Facebook or like Facebook, and if you're interested in DF41, you might want to check it out. (It's funny, really, because I don't like Facebook all that much.)
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #316 on: October 18, 2012, 06:13:10 PM »

Sorry, I thought those files were public. Try this: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BwYlArJQ3ODRVGxrenNHTW8yX0E
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #317 on: October 18, 2012, 07:20:39 PM »

I might regret mentioning this, but I started a Facebook R-DF41 group, if anyone is interested. There are a few of us on it already. It's pretty slow moving right now, but if you use Facebook or like Facebook, and if you're interested in DF41, you might want to check it out. (It's funny, really, because I don't like Facebook all that much.)

So, how do I find it? A facebook search for R-DF41 only brings up something called Alumni_10 DF41 which ain't it.
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rms2
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« Reply #318 on: October 18, 2012, 08:45:54 PM »

I might regret mentioning this, but I started a Facebook R-DF41 group, if anyone is interested. There are a few of us on it already. It's pretty slow moving right now, but if you use Facebook or like Facebook, and if you're interested in DF41, you might want to check it out. (It's funny, really, because I don't like Facebook all that much.)

So, how do I find it? A facebook search for R-DF41 only brings up something called Alumni_10 DF41 which ain't it.

Can you email me, Larry? My email is on the Background page at the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.
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rms2
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« Reply #319 on: October 20, 2012, 07:18:42 PM »

Waiting is a drag.

We need some more DF41+ results.
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rms2
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« Reply #320 on: October 20, 2012, 07:22:29 PM »

You may have noticed that I put the shorthand for DF41 into military phonetics in my signature: Romeo Delta Foxtrot Forty One (or you can call it Romeo One Bravo Delta Foxtrot Forty One, if you prefer).

Sounds cool, no?

I don't really have as much time on my hands as it seems. :-O
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 07:22:58 PM by rms2 » Logged

df.reynolds
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« Reply #321 on: October 20, 2012, 08:57:53 PM »

You may have noticed that I put the shorthand for DF41 into military phonetics in my signature: Romeo Delta Foxtrot Forty One (or you can call it Romeo One Bravo Delta Foxtrot Forty One, if you prefer).

Sounds cool, no?

I don't really have as much time on my hands as it seems. :-O
Thanks for a much needed laugh. :)

--david
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rms2
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« Reply #322 on: October 21, 2012, 05:38:39 AM »

You may have noticed that I put the shorthand for DF41 into military phonetics in my signature: Romeo Delta Foxtrot Forty One (or you can call it Romeo One Bravo Delta Foxtrot Forty One, if you prefer).

Sounds cool, no?

I don't really have as much time on my hands as it seems. :-O
Thanks for a much needed laugh. :)

--david

You are welcome, from one "Delta Foxtrot" guy to another.

The Z-SNP guys have really cool sounding groups, like Romeo Zulu Two Fifty Three, for example. But I like DF41, anyway.
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razyn
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« Reply #323 on: October 21, 2012, 08:13:50 AM »

I think you terminal Romeo Delta Foxtrot guys need a Dash.  (Slash would sound a little more military, but doesn't match the current typographic convention.)  Is one allowed to say Romeo Dash Delta Foxtrot?  Otherwise you might be confused with an RDF station and, you know, targeted by a U-boat or whatever.

In 1944, my late dad's route as a Navy chaplain attached to the Coast Guard included a big RDF station at Buxton, NC.  I think it actually meant Range and Direction Finder; they could do the direction part with radio, and triangulation was possible, but range was becoming a radar function.  That technology was still more or less secret, and they just called all of it RDF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_direction_finder

I recognize that this might be perceived as slightly off-topic.
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #324 on: October 21, 2012, 07:15:14 PM »

I think you terminal Romeo Delta Foxtrot guys need a Dash.  (Slash would sound a little more military, but doesn't match the current typographic convention.)  Is one allowed to say Romeo Dash Delta Foxtrot?  Otherwise you might be confused with an RDF station and, you know, targeted by a U-boat or whatever.

In 1944, my late dad's route as a Navy chaplain attached to the Coast Guard included a big RDF station at Buxton, NC.  I think it actually meant Range and Direction Finder; they could do the direction part with radio, and triangulation was possible, but range was becoming a radar function.  That technology was still more or less secret, and they just called all of it RDF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_direction_finder

I recognize that this might be perceived as slightly off-topic.

Since today's topic is apparently boredom, a former Navy radioman might say:

di-dah-dit dah-di-di-di-di-dah dah-di-dit di-di-dah-dit di-di-di-di-dah di-dah-dah-dah-dah ( .-. -....- -.. ..-. ....- .---- )

http://www.onlineconversion.com/morse_code.htm

.-.. .- .-. .-. -.--
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