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Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 36954 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #275 on: October 06, 2012, 12:48:52 PM »

Maybe we'll get lucky sometime soon and get a breakout and a new source of DF41 recruits. It's not looking that way right now, however. DF41 is looking somewhat circumscribed and exclusive. I guess that is to be expected when you turn off the big DF13 motorway and onto a quiet country lane.

It's still too early to call it a quiet country lane.  I agree with you that recruiting is essential. Hopefully the Geno 2.0 testing will turn up surprises.

When L513 got started it seemed like a fairly small group... and I guess it is when compared with all of R1b or something.  However, we can now reliably push the TMRCA back to at least 2500 years ago. L513 resides (not just MDKAs) in places like Sweden, Germany, France and the Netherlands, besides the Isles. We have one cluster that is mistaken for "9919" guys who are generally DF13*. We have another cluster that can be mistaken (Anatole K thought this) as M222 guys.

Once the momentum kicks in, you get more eyes and ears out there - more recruiters.  We now have 200 confirmed L513 people.  We have 990 more people that are pretty high odds (matches with clusters) to be L513+.  That reminds me, I need to complete a template email for recruiting these folks.

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Larry Walker
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« Reply #276 on: October 06, 2012, 05:38:17 PM »

Maybe we'll get lucky sometime soon and get a breakout and a new source of DF41 recruits. It's not looking that way right now, however. DF41 is looking somewhat circumscribed and exclusive. I guess that is to be expected when you turn off the big DF13 motorway and onto a quiet country lane.

It probably would not hurt to add a list of surnames to the DF41 and Subclades project to give the searchers something to hit. Here is the list of surnames for the project as it stands now:

Braton, Brattin, Bratton, Cooper, Creer, Duffy, Dugger, Hall, MacMillan, McBirnie, McCown, McCrere, Miller, Mitchell, Morrison, Stevens, Stewart, Walker, Webb, Williams, Wilson
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rms2
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« Reply #277 on: October 07, 2012, 09:16:40 AM »

Maybe we'll get lucky sometime soon and get a breakout and a new source of DF41 recruits. It's not looking that way right now, however. DF41 is looking somewhat circumscribed and exclusive. I guess that is to be expected when you turn off the big DF13 motorway and onto a quiet country lane.

It's still too early to call it a quiet country lane.  I agree with you that recruiting is essential. Hopefully the Geno 2.0 testing will turn up surprises.

When L513 got started it seemed like a fairly small group... and I guess it is when compared with all of R1b or something.  However, we can now reliably push the TMRCA back to at least 2500 years ago. L513 resides (not just MDKAs) in places like Sweden, Germany, France and the Netherlands, besides the Isles. We have one cluster that is mistaken for "9919" guys who are generally DF13*. We have another cluster that can be mistaken (Anatole K thought this) as M222 guys.

Once the momentum kicks in, you get more eyes and ears out there - more recruiters.  We now have 200 confirmed L513 people.  We have 990 more people that are pretty high odds (matches with clusters) to be L513+.  That reminds me, I need to complete a template email for recruiting these folks.



I hope you're right and we start to see some more positive results. It just feels like a quiet country lane because so many guys are missing the exit onto it. ;-)

I have done what I can to get people to test for it. Some just won't, and of those that will, most thus far have gotten negative results. I'll keep trying, and I know Paul is trying, as well.
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rms2
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« Reply #278 on: October 07, 2012, 09:25:15 AM »

Maybe we'll get lucky sometime soon and get a breakout and a new source of DF41 recruits. It's not looking that way right now, however. DF41 is looking somewhat circumscribed and exclusive. I guess that is to be expected when you turn off the big DF13 motorway and onto a quiet country lane.

It probably would not hurt to add a list of surnames to the DF41 and Subclades project to give the searchers something to hit. Here is the list of surnames for the project as it stands now:

Braton, Brattin, Bratton, Cooper, Creer, Duffy, Dugger, Hall, MacMillan, McBirnie, McCown, McCrere, Miller, Mitchell, Morrison, Stevens, Stewart, Walker, Webb, Williams, Wilson


Maybe Paul will do that. It sounds like a good idea.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 09:25:38 AM by rms2 » Logged

Dubhthach
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« Reply #279 on: October 07, 2012, 04:47:53 PM »

The project profile did include some of those surnames, I've updated it though with Larry's more comprehensive list. I've also added them to the "public webpage" of the site. This should hopefully be picked up over time by the likes of Google search engine etc.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #280 on: October 08, 2012, 06:44:01 PM »

Self got his new kit but as of yesterday had not mailed it back to FTDNA yet.

I like discussing DF41, so I hope we get some new positives soon. I've pretty much lost interest in the semi-mythical and legendary Indo-Europeans (who probably rode unicorns and carried leprechauns on their shoulders), and there doesn't seem to be much else going on.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #281 on: October 08, 2012, 07:00:21 PM »

How are we on outstanding DF41 tests? In general from looking at last week or so most test results I've seen coming in have been STR -- upgrades to higher number of markers etc.

Personally I'm waiting on hopefully a new updated tree from Alex, given the large batch of testing we've had over the last month and half it should at least be better quality. Either way it's still early days, it's hardly 6 months since either myself or Chris (McCown) tested DF41+ we probably among the first public DF41+ tested in FTDNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #282 on: October 08, 2012, 07:09:53 PM »

How are we on outstanding DF41 tests? In general from looking at last week or so most test results I've seen coming in have been STR -- upgrades to higher number of markers etc.

Personally I'm waiting on hopefully a new updated tree from Alex, given the large batch of testing we've had over the last month and half it should at least be better quality. Either way it's still early days, it's hardly 6 months since either myself or Chris (McCown) tested DF41+ we probably among the first public DF41+ tested in FTDNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

At the R-L21 Plus Project there are 16 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results and three in Pending Shipment to Lab.

There is one pending DF41 test that should be a lock in the Stephens/Stevens Project (my 64/67 Stephens with a ph match) .

« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 07:14:04 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #283 on: October 08, 2012, 07:12:39 PM »

How are we on outstanding DF41 tests? In general from looking at last week or so most test results I've seen coming in have been STR -- upgrades to higher number of markers etc.

Personally I'm waiting on hopefully a new updated tree from Alex, given the large batch of testing we've had over the last month and half it should at least be better quality. Either way it's still early days, it's hardly 6 months since either myself or Chris (McCown) tested DF41+ we probably among the first public DF41+ tested in FTDNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

At the R-L21 Plus Project there are 16 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results and three in Pending Shipment to Lab.

There is one pending DF41 test that should be a lock in the Stephens/Stevens Project (my 64/67 Stephens with a ph match).



I'm guessing we won't see any new results in the morning because today is a federal holiday, Columbus Day, here in the USA. FTDNA probably wasn't working today.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 07:14:33 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #284 on: October 08, 2012, 07:36:20 PM »

Oh, the admin of the Price Project told me one of the Prices in my cluster has also ordered DF41, but she wouldn't tell me which one. He should get a positive result. Hope he joins both projects or at least one of them, so we find out about it.
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rms2
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« Reply #285 on: October 10, 2012, 04:07:10 AM »

The Quinn mentioned earlier on this thread has ordered DF41. I don't have time right now to hunt up his kit number.
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« Reply #286 on: October 12, 2012, 04:01:04 AM »

My 64/67 Stephens with a ph match, kit 208061, got his DF41+ result this morning.

Hooray! Another DF41+ at last!

I have asked his daughter, who is in charge of the kit, to join him to both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #287 on: October 12, 2012, 08:56:41 AM »

Rich,

That has GOT to feel great. Hey have you found any paper trail connections yet?

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #288 on: October 12, 2012, 09:21:05 AM »

My 64/67 Stephens with a ph match, kit 208061, got his DF41+ result this morning.

Hooray! Another DF41+ at last!

I have asked his daughter, who is in charge of the kit, to join him to both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.
Congratulations.
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rms2
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« Reply #289 on: October 12, 2012, 11:29:33 AM »

Rich,

That has GOT to feel great. Hey have you found any paper trail connections yet?

MJost

No, unfortunately. His y mdka was born in Caswell County, North Carolina, in 1798, and mine was born up in Wheeling, West Virginia (near Pittsburgh) in 1804. We both have another Stevens (with a v) match whose mdka was born in Pennsylvania around 1795, if I recall correctly. We can't connect the dots yet.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 11:30:21 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #290 on: October 12, 2012, 11:31:27 AM »

My 64/67 Stephens with a ph match, kit 208061, got his DF41+ result this morning.

Hooray! Another DF41+ at last!

I have asked his daughter, who is in charge of the kit, to join him to both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.
Congratulations.

Thanks!

It's nice to have all sorts of confirmation that our DF41+ results are accurate and not a lab error.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #291 on: October 12, 2012, 12:52:19 PM »

Rich,

That has GOT to feel great. Hey have you found any paper trail connections yet?

MJost

No, unfortunately. His y mdka was born in Caswell County, North Carolina, in 1798, and mine was born up in Wheeling, West Virginia (near Pittsburgh) in 1804. We both have another Stevens (with a v) match whose mdka was born in Pennsylvania around 1795, if I recall correctly. We can't connect the dots yet.
I have a similar issue as my Cook guy can only go back five generations to a brick wall into Georgia. We have a 64/67 and 106/111 GDs. The FtDNA TIP reports an eight generations at 58.10% and Nine at 68.27%.  My Isle of Man match has 61/67 and 103/111, so I feel I have found my general connection acrross the pond with the substantial off-modal markers in common.

Taking the 67 marker factor of 5.8 x  your average number of generation in years and that results x GD difference and divide by two then establishes a nice TMRCA.

5.8 x 41 years between your generations (If I recall correctly) = 237.8 years per mutation

237.8 years per mutation x three GD = 713.4 total mutation years.

713.4 total mutation years divided by two branches = 356.7 TMRCA

You may need to look more across the pond or early colonal.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #292 on: October 12, 2012, 01:50:24 PM »

That is what I had figured: probably the link is the immigrant, and the time would have been the 17th century or possibly the early 18th.
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« Reply #293 on: October 12, 2012, 02:12:43 PM »

A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #294 on: October 12, 2012, 05:02:20 PM »

A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.

Well, try this one on. I have two 66/67 marker matches of a different surname. They have surnames in common and are 67/67 with each other. One of them and me just got our 111 results and we arestill GD1 at 110/111. They have spent 20 years shredding paper and are still brick-walled at about 1700 Scotland by family legend. Their best actual paper ends on immigration about 1730 with no mutual ancestor. My paper gets me to 1795 Scotland. Assumption: being DF41+, our most distant known/probable ancestors were Highlanders and probably born without inherited surnames.
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rms2
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« Reply #295 on: October 12, 2012, 07:36:40 PM »

A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.

Well, try this one on. I have two 66/67 marker matches of a different surname. They have surnames in common and are 67/67 with each other. One of them and me just got our 111 results and we arestill GD1 at 110/111. They have spent 20 years shredding paper and are still brick-walled at about 1700 Scotland by family legend. Their best actual paper ends on immigration about 1730 with no mutual ancestor. My paper gets me to 1795 Scotland. Assumption: being DF41+, our most distant known/probable ancestors were Highlanders and probably born without inherited surnames.

I've got a 65/67 match whose surname is different from mine. He was born in Worcester, England, but says his family has always lived in Shropshire (in the West Midlands, right on the Welsh border). He doesn't match any men with his surname, but he matches a bunch of us Stevenses/Stephenses.

Unfortunately, he isn't interested in pursuing things any further.

Figures.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 07:44:26 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #296 on: October 12, 2012, 08:29:45 PM »

My 64/67 Stephens with a ph match, kit 208061, got his DF41+ result this morning.

Hooray! Another DF41+ at last!

I have asked his daughter, who is in charge of the kit, to join him to both the R-DF41 and Subclades Project and the R-L21 Plus Project.


She joined him to both projects today.

Hopefully we'll get some more positive results soon.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #297 on: October 13, 2012, 04:21:29 AM »

A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.

Well, try this one on. I have two 66/67 marker matches of a different surname. They have surnames in common and are 67/67 with each other. One of them and me just got our 111 results and we arestill GD1 at 110/111. They have spent 20 years shredding paper and are still brick-walled at about 1700 Scotland by family legend. Their best actual paper ends on immigration about 1730 with no mutual ancestor. My paper gets me to 1795 Scotland. Assumption: being DF41+, our most distant known/probable ancestors were Highlanders and probably born without inherited surnames.

I've got a 65/67 match whose surname is different from mine. He was born in Worcester, England, but says his family has always lived in Shropshire (in the West Midlands, right on the Welsh border). He doesn't match any men with his surname, but he matches a bunch of us Stevenses/Stephenses.

Unfortunately, he isn't interested in pursuing things any further.

Figures.

Do you think he would be open to even a sponsored DF41 test?

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #298 on: October 13, 2012, 07:52:52 AM »

A correction: my 64/67 match who just tested DF41+ has a y mdka born in North Carolina in about 1789, not 1798.

Sorry.

Well, try this one on. I have two 66/67 marker matches of a different surname. They have surnames in common and are 67/67 with each other. One of them and me just got our 111 results and we arestill GD1 at 110/111. They have spent 20 years shredding paper and are still brick-walled at about 1700 Scotland by family legend. Their best actual paper ends on immigration about 1730 with no mutual ancestor. My paper gets me to 1795 Scotland. Assumption: being DF41+, our most distant known/probable ancestors were Highlanders and probably born without inherited surnames.

I've got a 65/67 match whose surname is different from mine. He was born in Worcester, England, but says his family has always lived in Shropshire (in the West Midlands, right on the Welsh border). He doesn't match any men with his surname, but he matches a bunch of us Stevenses/Stephenses.

Unfortunately, he isn't interested in pursuing things any further.

Figures.

Do you think he would be open to even a sponsored DF41 test?

-Paul
(DF41+)

I can ask him, but he never responded to my last email. Of course, that was the one in which I gently suggested that he might be a biological Stevens.

Shall I invite him for a DF41 test sponsored by the R-DF41 and Subclades Project?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 07:53:28 AM by rms2 » Logged

df.reynolds
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« Reply #299 on: October 14, 2012, 01:29:53 AM »

Any DF41+ folks who have ordered Geno 2.0 and who plan on sharing?

--david
* * *
The Geno 2.0/WTY Summary Table  was updated to include the additional folks who have indicated they have a Geno 2.0 test pending. 36 L21+ people so far.

No one from the "Little Four" (L96, L144, L371, L555) have indicated they are testing yet. Of the "Big Six," there is pretty good representation, except for DF41, where there are no pending results listed at this time. There is even one DF63 kit on the list!

If you are L21+, have ordered Geno 2.0, and want to share your Y-SNP results with the user community when they are available, please send your kit number to me at geno@daver.info and I will add you to the summary table.

Regards,
david
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