World Families Forums - R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 10, 2014, 05:56:20 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 20 Go Down Print
Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 34930 times)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #225 on: September 27, 2012, 06:51:46 PM »

Of that list I only see the following in the L21 project
  • 21647 (McCleland) -- DF21-, L21+, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-
  • 93399 (Edwards) -- L21+ (no other SNP's tested)

Rich do you know if either have ordered DF41? I reckon McCleland would probably order it if was recommended to it, he's obviously done abit of SNP testing.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Okay, I just emailed both of them and asked them to order DF41.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #226 on: September 27, 2012, 07:48:46 PM »

I also emailed kit 50358, who is listed by Peter as Laughlin, but whose surname is actually Quinn. His mdka's first name was Laughlin.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #227 on: September 27, 2012, 08:08:03 PM »

I just emailed Baker, Ysearch GDC7F, and asked him to test for DF41. I advised him that I cannot guarantee the result. He only has 25 markers, so his resemblance to my cluster could be partly due to convergence, and he could be U106+.

If he tries it and gets a positive result, we'll know.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 08:08:18 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #228 on: September 27, 2012, 10:24:02 PM »

Here are the people that are confirmed or that I suspect might be DF41+.

MacMillan looks like the loner right now but I noticed his 437 off-modal value matches the 1426 variety of people so maybe he was just an early branch from them.


f47694   MacMillan   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41- unnassigned   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Benbecula   Z7Z58
f176148   Duffy   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1013   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast   PP38U
f35550   Salmon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1013   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo   NQGP6
yVT2R6   Beddoes   R-L21   41-1123   England, West Midlands, Shropshire, Salop   VT2R6
yDX6FN   Chorn   zzL21suspect   41-1123   UK   DX6FN
f57563   Cooper   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   UK   4BN3G
f28470   Price   zzL21suspect   41-1123   Wales   NF2TH
f8988   Price   zzL21suspect   41-1123   Wales   YF3FG
f53479   Selfe   R-L21   41-1123   England, South West, Wiltshire   54XP8
f208061   Stephens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   6A342
f212967   Stevens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   England   6ZRRA
f250145   Stevens   R-L21   41-1123   UK   8HXQH
fN40760   Stevens   R-L21   41-1123   UK   358E9
f59080   Stevens   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   HX9ZF
f88034   Stevens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   S23BC
f124786   Stevens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   X45FC
f191492   Stevens   zzL21suspect   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin   WW4G3
f163684   Webb   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   England   WEKT6
f48142   Webb   zzL21suspect   41-1123   UK   T4QRS
f222670   Bismire   R-L21   41-1411   England, London, Middlesex   5JWWU
yPXRQ3   Bismire   R-L21   41-1411   England, London, Middlesex   PXRQ3
fN67581   Bontron-Major   R-L21   41-1411   France, Franche-ComtĂ©, Doubs, Montussaint   GGWAD
f85107   Dugger   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   FT8A4
f142157   Dwyer   zzL21suspect   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   8P6RY
f92380   Hall   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   Ireland   
f35212   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1411   Isle of Man (in Irish Sea near Scotland)   ZYWYP
f38965   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   UK   877X8
f55021   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   UK   
f181546   Nuckolls   R-L21   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   5GCFR
f105975   Russell   R-L21   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   V4WEE
f34424   Russell   R-L21   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin   7GQ8X
f130615   Barton   zzL21suspect   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   
f223382   Barton   zzL21suspect   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   
fN12980   Bratin   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Kilskeery Parish   RTVE4
f211437   Bratton   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland   GKRCZ
f103173   Cannon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   England, London   B2BQH
f227064   Gordon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland   
f145473   Major   R-L21   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   TBWE6
f75460   Majors   R-L21   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   6BZ7V
f170555   McBurney   zzL21suspect   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Armagh, Ballysheilmore   WFPQ5
f156437   McBurney   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland   
f21647   McCleland   R-L21   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   8YRSC
f52062   Miller   R-L21   41-1426C*   Ireland   6YU4P
f96950   Miller   R-L21   41-1426C*   zzzUnkOrigin   Z4EKZ
f32434   Morrison   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland   2C6SB
f221537   Tait   zzL21suspect   41-1426C*   Scotland   
f240201   Walker   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1426C*   Scotland   N7ANP
f4500   Wilson   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster   NX6G9
f20194   Wright   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland   3HNCS
f18391   Chamberlain   R-L21   41-1426C-A   zzzUnkOrigin   GXK6G
f93399   Edwards   R-L21   41-1426C-A   zzzUnkOrigin   6P3NE
f22849   McCown   zzL21suspect   41-1426C-A   Ireland   CD29Y
f1503   McCown   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C-A   Ireland   HZUXJ
f29705   McCown   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1426C-A   Ireland, Ulster   P8ZR6
f78799   Smith   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C-A   UK   WS99W
f213376   zzzUnknown   zzL21suspect   41-1426C-A   Scotland   
f209033   Gilbert   zzL21suspect   41-744- unassigned   zzzUnkOrigin   HKE7J
f225950   Kerochiou   R-L21   41-744- unassigned   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix   
f58641   Rioux   zzL21suspect   41-744- unassigned   France   
f239315   Thompson   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744   41-744- unassigned   England, North West, Merseyside, Liverpool   D779H
f75703   Webb   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744*   41-744- unassigned   England   4XUWU
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Larry Walker
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #229 on: September 27, 2012, 10:28:02 PM »


The Morrisons are hiding away in their own web site. If anybody feels like getting the profiles and SNP-tests (if they are given) from there, I would be delighted.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Some SNP results and Y67 were in my spreadsheet attached to my off-list response. A direct link to the Morrison results spreadsheet (non-standard but useable, no SNP info) is:
http://morrisondna.x10hosting.com/morrison/public_html/Morrison%20DNA%20Project.htm
Group Q is the only one you are interested in there. They are all highly likely DF41+. The rest of the Morrisons are just as likely DF41-.

Quote
I *do* hope, somebody will find the inspiration to approach the candidates in the potential Walker Group (Millers, McBurney and Johnston) and try convince them to order DF41 and join the project. Please note: I'm not 100% certain McBurney and Johnston have not already tested DF41 or any other SNPs.

We are chipping away at it.

Logged
Larry Walker
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #230 on: September 27, 2012, 10:48:51 PM »

For all who care, I've had a look at the McCown/Walker Cluster and found the following candidates. I do not know if any of these kits have already ordered a DF41 test.

NrKit#Y-SeachNameCountry
121624EE2U5McCownIreland
245814ZJZ3JMcCune
3151802--McCuneScotland
494904YTJK2WilsonEngland
5216478YRSCMcCleland
6109546SKRHHMcClellandScotland
725146YSZ3MMcClellan
8149709--McLelland
995276N7KNNMcLellan
101539564PCF6SmithEngland
1127212--SmithEngland
1225971--Ramsey
1330720GGTHCElderScotland
14933996P3NEEdwards
15147864--Webb ?
16187514--Braughton
17106240--HenryN-Ireland
1818391GXK6GChamberlain ?

Few of these kits have done much SNP-testing, but the match to the McCown/Walker Motif is reasonable at first sight; I haven't checked the GD's (!!).

I guess, people interested in the history of R-DF41 will find the last two surnames fascinating. $:-)

OK, and now back to R-Z18 !!


You just touched one of my pet peeves. Does anybody else find the Y-search robot blocker as difficult as I do? I typically have to look at 20 or more of those distorted AND blurred visual puzzels before I can find one that I can decipher. I need a robot to get past their &_&^)) robot blocker! It would not be so bad if it would let me stay in once I got there, but having to go through the entire procedure again for each search is a real pain. Am I missing something?

Until I find better access, Y-search just doesn't exist for me. The view ain't worth the trip.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #231 on: September 28, 2012, 07:32:37 AM »

There are a handful of DF41 results this morning. Unless I miscounted, there were nine. The only positive was Miller, kit 96950.

Hamon, kit 84034 (France), and Kepler, kit 88876 (Germany), both of whom were in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's last NJ tree, are both DF41-.

There are still 25 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results and one in Pending Shipment to Lab.
Logged

Dubhthach
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #232 on: September 28, 2012, 08:08:31 AM »

There are a handful of DF41 results this morning. Unless I miscounted, there were nine. The only positive was Miller, kit 96950.

Hamon, kit 84034 (France), and Kepler, kit 88876 (Germany), both of whom were in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's last NJ tree, are both DF41-.

There are still 25 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results and one in Pending Shipment to Lab.

Those two results are actually quite usefull, they are right in what we reckon was a spurious branch in Alex's diagram. Given that they are both negative as was Erwin we should see a major redrawing of the tree around the Stewarts in the next iteration.

-Paul
(DF41+)
Logged
Peter M
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 92


« Reply #233 on: September 28, 2012, 11:27:38 AM »

I also emailed kit 50358, who is listed by Peter as Laughlin, but whose surname is actually Quinn. His mdka's first name was Laughlin.

OK, sorry, repaired the issue. Initially I was more concerned with my software than with all of these names, some of which are so Irish they tend to be unpronounceable for me anyway. $:-)

I just emailed Baker, Ysearch GDC7F, and asked him to test for DF41. I advised him that I cannot guarantee the result. He only has 25 markers, so his resemblance to my cluster could be partly due to convergence, and he could be U106+.

If he tries it and gets a positive result, we'll know.

Well, that would mean, you are at the bottom of the list of suggestions. That should never be the case, of course. I've added a few new ones at the bottom of your cluster. The match to your cluster's motif will tend to get weaker as we go down the list, I'm afraid.

I'm sure, you'll find the last two cases fascinating. $:-)

I might be able to offer some help with the last one.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 12:06:53 PM by Peter M » Logged
Larry Walker
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #234 on: September 28, 2012, 01:56:06 PM »



Peter,

Just looked at your latest. I'll settle for sub-cluster for now, but.....

The Flux Network Program may tell us different the next time it is run, but a bit of simplistic creative number crunching and my intuition lead me to believe that Walker/Morrison is just a wee bit older which would make McCown the subcluster.
}:>))

Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #235 on: September 28, 2012, 03:10:31 PM »

I also emailed kit 50358, who is listed by Peter as Laughlin, but whose surname is actually Quinn. His mdka's first name was Laughlin.

OK, sorry, repaired the issue. Initially I was more concerned with my software than with all of these names, some of which are so Irish they tend to be unpronounceable for me anyway. $:-)

I just emailed Baker, Ysearch GDC7F, and asked him to test for DF41. I advised him that I cannot guarantee the result. He only has 25 markers, so his resemblance to my cluster could be partly due to convergence, and he could be U106+.

If he tries it and gets a positive result, we'll know.

Well, that would mean, you are at the bottom of the list of suggestions. That should never be the case, of course. I've added a few new ones at the bottom of your cluster. The match to your cluster's motif will tend to get weaker as we go down the list, I'm afraid.

I'm sure, you'll find the last two cases fascinating. $:-)

I might be able to offer some help with the last one.


I really appreciate your help, Peter. French, kit 102653, was one of the reasons I went ahead and tested for Z253 awhile back, because he is Z253+. So, he isn't really in our cluster after all.

I would bet money (but I won't) that guy from the Netherlands will turn out to be U106+ in the end.

I haven't had a chance to check out those Smiths.
Logged

Peter M
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 92


« Reply #236 on: September 28, 2012, 03:30:38 PM »

I also emailed kit 50358, who is listed by Peter as Laughlin, but whose surname is actually Quinn. His mdka's first name was Laughlin.

OK, sorry, repaired the issue. Initially I was more concerned with my software than with all of these names, some of which are so Irish they tend to be unpronounceable for me anyway. $:-)

I just emailed Baker, Ysearch GDC7F, and asked him to test for DF41. I advised him that I cannot guarantee the result. He only has 25 markers, so his resemblance to my cluster could be partly due to convergence, and he could be U106+.

If he tries it and gets a positive result, we'll know.

Well, that would mean, you are at the bottom of the list of suggestions. That should never be the case, of course. I've added a few new ones at the bottom of your cluster. The match to your cluster's motif will tend to get weaker as we go down the list, I'm afraid.

I'm sure, you'll find the last two cases fascinating. $:-)

I might be able to offer some help with the last one.


I really appreciate your help, Peter. French, kit 102653, was one of the reasons I went ahead and tested for Z253 awhile back, because he is Z253+. So, he isn't really in our cluster after all.

I would bet money (but I won't) that guy from the Netherlands will turn out to be U106+ in the end.

I haven't had a chance to check out those Smiths.

I must be a bit more careful and check things better before making suggestions. My impression was these people hadn't done much SNP testing.

BTW, if there'a another cluster of look-alikes on the other side of the fence, then testing will be complicated. If French is Z253+, then some of the others may be as well.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 04:26:17 PM by Peter M » Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #237 on: September 28, 2012, 07:10:06 PM »

I'm wondering why Self, kit 53479, hasn't received his DF41 result yet. He ordered the test about the same time that Webb and I did. He's in our cluster and is a 66/67 match for Cooper. It's kind of aggravating.
Logged

Peter M
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 92


« Reply #238 on: September 28, 2012, 08:54:07 PM »

I'm wondering why Self, kit 53479, hasn't received his DF41 result yet. He ordered the test about the same time that Webb and I did. He's in our cluster and is a 66/67 match for Cooper. It's kind of aggravating.

Has he ordered his test with FT-Delay ??  $:-)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 08:55:02 PM by Peter M » Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #239 on: September 28, 2012, 08:56:42 PM »

I'm wondering why Self, kit 53479, hasn't received his DF41 result yet. He ordered the test about the same time that Webb and I did. He's in our cluster and is a 66/67 match for Cooper. It's kind of aggravating.

Has he ordered his test with FT-Delay ??  $:-)


Yeah. He's still under the original predicted due date (24 October), but Webb and I got ours two weeks ago.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #240 on: September 29, 2012, 05:45:34 AM »

BTW, I guess it sounded like I was complaining. I wasn't, really. FTDNA has been generally really fast with the results of SNP tests lately. I appreciate that, especially considering that SNP test results, up until quite recently, used to take a couple of months or more. I was just expressing my aggravation that Self's results didn't come in  with Webb's and mine. I am also anxiously awaiting the rest of the DF41 results.

I'm hoping we pick up a couple of unexpected positives from out in left field that will broaden the picture.
Logged

Larry Walker
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #241 on: September 30, 2012, 12:11:58 AM »

I may have overlooked it before, but I just noticed that 92380 Hall tested L563-. Pickings are getting pretty slim for L563 candidates with both Hall and Dugger out.
Logged
k.o.gran
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 104


« Reply #242 on: September 30, 2012, 06:01:07 AM »

I may have overlooked it before, but I just noticed that 92380 Hall tested L563-. Pickings are getting pretty slim for L563 candidates with both Hall and Dugger out.

We are waiting for Nuckolls' L563 result. If that comes back negative as well, we are out of candidates for now in my opinion.

-Kai
Logged

R-DF63+
Larry Walker
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #243 on: September 30, 2012, 01:40:38 PM »

I may have overlooked it before, but I just noticed that 92380 Hall tested L563-. Pickings are getting pretty slim for L563 candidates with both Hall and Dugger out.

We are waiting for Nuckolls' L563 result. If that comes back negative as well, we are out of candidates for now in my opinion.

-Kai

222670 Bismire and N67581 Bontron-Major?
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #244 on: September 30, 2012, 02:15:17 PM »

I may have overlooked it before, but I just noticed that 92380 Hall tested L563-. Pickings are getting pretty slim for L563 candidates with both Hall and Dugger out.

We are waiting for Nuckolls' L563 result. If that comes back negative as well, we are out of candidates for now in my opinion.

-Kai

222670 Bismire and N67581 Bontron-Major?

I have written both of them to try to get them to test for DF41, but I haven't heard from either.
Logged

Larry Walker
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #245 on: October 01, 2012, 10:19:32 PM »

Peter has done a lot on his DF41 spreadsheet in the last couple of days. He has just about doubled the sample size and four clusters are coming together nicely, three of which closely correspond to Mike's 41-1426C, 41-1426C-A, and 41-1123. I find the fourth cluster most interesting as it includes elements of Mike's 41-1411 which was fraying at the edges along with some "problem" samples in a cluster which seems to be coming together. This is beginning to define areas within DF41 where we may want to look into some deeper testing for SNP discovery at some point in the future when we can go beyond the current WTY.

One question Peter, what is the significance of the light blue shading over some of the test results?
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #246 on: October 02, 2012, 04:06:04 AM »

There are five DF41 results this morning, all negative. Hebert, kit 4568, got his DF41 result, and, of course, it is negative. I am disappointed about that.

Many folks who were in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's last NJ tree have tested DF41-. Apparently it's a tighter and more exclusive subclade than that tree indicated.
Logged

Peter M
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 92


« Reply #247 on: October 02, 2012, 06:15:15 AM »

One question Peter, what is the significance of the light blue shading over some of the test results?

The shading, it's grey, honest $:-),  indicates it's an "implied result" and not the result of any actual testing. E.g. if somebody is tested DF41+, then this imples DF13+ according to the Y-Tree and if he has not done an actual DF13 test, then the "+" in this column will be shaded.
Logged
Dubhthach
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #248 on: October 02, 2012, 06:46:39 AM »

There are five DF41 results this morning, all negative. Hebert, kit 4568, got his DF41 result, and, of course, it is negative. I am disappointed about that.

Many folks who were in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's last NJ tree have tested DF41-. Apparently it's a tighter and more exclusive subclade than that tree indicated.

Well in some ways a negative is just as good as a positive. It shows again though how important SNP testing is to prove membership/closeness to STR clusters. It will be interesting to see what Alex's next NJ tree is like.

-Paul
(DF41+)
Logged
Mike Forsyth
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #249 on: October 02, 2012, 07:28:56 AM »

Rich, are these DF41 results received in batch 482...not that I am holding out for a positive result, but it would be nice to know one way or the other..
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 20 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.155 seconds with 19 queries.