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Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 48240 times)
Jdean
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« Reply #200 on: September 25, 2012, 01:46:29 PM »

I general start off by googling for "kit# surname DNA", and much of the time I can immediately find a page where results are displayed.  Some FTDNA projects have a public page, but do not include their project in the the projects index.

--david

I prefer "kit# site:familytreedna.com". If the person is in any project with public webpages enabled, it will show as a result.

-Kai

But only if the person is on the first page (assuming there is more than one) or the project has SNP or MtDNA results switched on.
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
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Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

k.o.gran
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« Reply #201 on: September 25, 2012, 03:01:31 PM »

I general start off by googling for "kit# surname DNA", and much of the time I can immediately find a page where results are displayed.  Some FTDNA projects have a public page, but do not include their project in the the projects index.

--david

I prefer "kit# site:familytreedna.com". If the person is in any project with public webpages enabled, it will show as a result.

-Kai

But only if the person is on the first page (assuming there is more than one) or the project has SNP or MtDNA results switched on.

Yeah, that's true. If the kit you're looking for is number 501 or higher in all projects it's in and none of those have SNP or MTDNA reports turned on, google can't help you.

-Kai
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rms2
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« Reply #202 on: September 25, 2012, 03:01:32 PM »

Thanks, all of you! Live and learn.
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rms2
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« Reply #203 on: September 25, 2012, 06:37:37 PM »

Hebert has ordered DF41. I keep waiting for the result to appear. He is on the outskirts of our cluster, so I am really interested in his result.

Looking in a bit more detail at things, one could easily get the first impression that the first outskirt ring of your Stevens/Webb/Douglas/Cooper/Price/Selfe Cluster in addition to 4568-Herbert consists of 195898-Kendle, 39789-Baker, 50358-Laughlin and 140321-Edwards. Unfortunately, none of the owners of these kits has ventured into any SNP-testing afaia. Biggest problem is, only one has tested 67 markers, so it's not easy to see if these people are L21+. This appears to be highly relevant, as a bit further away from the center of the cluster, the percentage of U106 increases dramatically, possibly as a result of DYS390=23.

BTW, "Stevens Cluster" might be just a wee bit more practical. $:-)


I emailed Kendle, kit 195898, and Mayson (Edwards), kit 140321, and asked them to test for DF41.

I couldn't find Laughlin or Baker. Do you know how I can contact them?

I heard from Mayson, kit 140321. He says he is ordering the DF41 test. I have no way to monitor that or the results because he is not in any of the projects I administer. Hopefully, he'll join the R-L21 Plus and R-DF41 and Subclades Projects if and when he gets a DF41+ result.
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rms2
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« Reply #204 on: September 26, 2012, 03:49:27 AM »

Another morning with no new DF41 results, though there are plenty of DF41 tests pending. I guess I've gotten spoiled lately, with all the speedy turnaround times.

Maybe tomorrow we'll see some?

It makes for a boring day at WFN (for me) with no new DF41 stuff to discuss.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #205 on: September 26, 2012, 07:03:39 AM »

Rich,

I'm just reviewing some of the Kit numbers that cluster around 1426 in Alex Williamson tree. Do you know if the following have ordered DF41? They are in the L21 Project

200128 -- Green
202725 -- Dawson
104708  -- Provan
12539 -- Baker
135086 -- Brooks [2517]

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #206 on: September 26, 2012, 08:16:30 AM »

Rich,

I'm just reviewing some of the Kit numbers that cluster around 1426 in Alex Williamson tree. Do you know if the following have ordered DF41? They are in the L21 Project

200128 -- Green
202725 -- Dawson
104708  -- Provan
12539 -- Baker
135086 -- Brooks [2517]

-Paul
(DF41+)


I know 104708 (Provan) has, but I don't think any of the others have. I'll have to check later when I get the chance.
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Peter M
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« Reply #207 on: September 26, 2012, 11:13:34 AM »

Another morning with no new DF41 results, though there are plenty of DF41 tests pending. I guess I've gotten spoiled lately, with all the speedy turnaround times.

Maybe tomorrow we'll see some?

It makes for a boring day at WFN (for me) with no new DF41 stuff to discuss.

If there's no new DF41 stuff to discuss, then maybe it's time for some trivialities to attent to. Like the question of the status of DYS504=16 in R-L21 and R-DF41 ? Has this ever been discussed before ??

BTW, another clear indication for the need of a 111-marker result in the Stevens Cluster. And surprise, surprise, today is .... $:-)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 11:15:38 AM by Peter M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #208 on: September 26, 2012, 07:09:41 PM »

Rich,

I'm just reviewing some of the Kit numbers that cluster around 1426 in Alex Williamson tree. Do you know if the following have ordered DF41? They are in the L21 Project

200128 -- Green
202725 -- Dawson
104708  -- Provan
12539 -- Baker
135086 -- Brooks [2517]

-Paul
(DF41+)


I know 104708 (Provan) has, but I don't think any of the others have. I'll have to check later when I get the chance.

I don't see DF41 orders for any of those above except Provan, kit 104708.
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rms2
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« Reply #209 on: September 26, 2012, 07:10:31 PM »

Another morning with no new DF41 results, though there are plenty of DF41 tests pending. I guess I've gotten spoiled lately, with all the speedy turnaround times.

Maybe tomorrow we'll see some?

It makes for a boring day at WFN (for me) with no new DF41 stuff to discuss.

If there's no new DF41 stuff to discuss, then maybe it's time for some trivialities to attent to. Like the question of the status of DYS504=16 in R-L21 and R-DF41 ? Has this ever been discussed before ??

BTW, another clear indication for the need of a 111-marker result in the Stevens Cluster. And surprise, surprise, today is .... $:-)


I didn't notice that until you mentioned it.

I can't do an upgrade to 111 markers right now. Maybe sometime in the near future.
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rms2
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« Reply #210 on: September 26, 2012, 08:02:30 PM »

Well, I think I'll get off the computer for now. Hopefully, there will be some DF41 results in the morning, dark and early, when I get up.
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Peter M
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« Reply #211 on: September 26, 2012, 08:46:33 PM »


I look forward to the results of your experiments with DF41.


Originally, it wasn't my intention to publish the results, as I said I'm only testing software that we use for R-Z18 and R-DF49, but as R-DF41 proved a nice testing environment and as it might be helpful persuading people to order a DF41 test, I have made the test results on DF41 available on the web.

I will keep it up to date as long as it is considered useful. But please note, this is the output of a first experimental new version of an existing piece of software. There might be a few issues here and there initially. And there's no guaranteed delivery. Oh, and the manual (explanation and things) is being worked on. $:-)

Goto L257.org and select Y-DNA Profiles DF41+ in the menu on the left (please refer to the sheet as such and do NOT use the URL from your browser in discussions (the URL is too complex for technical reasons and will change in future).

BTW, this result sheet is best viewed on a wide screen. In Europe, these screens are called HD (High Definition) and are 1920 pixels wide. If you don't have such a screen, then this is the moment to consider getting one, as effective analysis requires the widest screen one get get. Oh and don't worry about the price, the cheapest version will do; you do not need a calibrated photo/video editing grade screen for DNA-analysis. $:-)

Now I hope the background of my remark is obvious: DYS504=16. The questions is: is this so with all profiles in all clusters of R-DF41 ??
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Peter M
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« Reply #212 on: September 26, 2012, 09:50:37 PM »

Still looking at the DF41 results in a little more detail, it appears that the only thing needed to determine the position of L563 on the tree is a call for 75703-Webb.

According to FT-DNA 3 kits have tested positively for L563. 35212-Creer is known, but who are the others ? other Creers ?

BTW, WTY-results that have not been reported to the "standard" FT-DNA reporting system are not included in the result sheet yet. Anybody a clear overview of such WTY results in R-DF41 ??
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 11:37:15 PM by Peter M » Logged
Larry Walker
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« Reply #213 on: September 26, 2012, 09:55:26 PM »


I look forward to the results of your experiments with DF41.


Originally, it wasn't my intention to publish the results, as I said I'm only testing software that we use for R-Z18 and R-DF49, but as R-DF41 proved a nice testing environment and as it might be helpful persuading people to order a DF41 test, I have made the test results on DF41 available on the web.

I will keep it up to date as long as it is considered useful. But please note, this is the output of a first experimental new version of an existing piece of software. There might be a few issues here and there initially. And there's no guaranteed delivery. Oh, and the manual (explanation and things) is being worked on. $:-)

Goto L257.org and select Y-DNA Profiles DF41+ in the menu on the left (please refer to the sheet as such and do NOT use the URL from your browser in discussions (the URL is too complex for technical reasons and will change in future).

BTW, this result sheet is best viewed on a wide screen. In Europe, these screens are called HD (High Definition) and are 1920 pixels wide. If you don't have such a screen, then this is the moment to consider getting one, as effective analysis requires the widest screen one get get. Oh and don't worry about the price, the cheapest version will do; you do not need a calibrated photo/video editing grade screen for DNA-analysis. $:-)

Now I hope the background of my remark is obvious: DYS504=16. The questions is: is this so with all profiles in all clusters of R-DF41 ??


WOW! Mommy, I want one of those for Christmas.

Yes about DYS504, but I'll let the rest of the group find the answer themselves.

Am I correct in assuming that the McCown/Walker cluster is so named because McCown is closest to modal, and Walker (that's me) is the conspicuous odd-ball with DYS459 = 9-9, the only L745- so far in DF41+ with those markers? Anybody have any insight into that?

Thanks for giving me the lead-in to ask something I've been dying to.

Larry Walker
DF41+, L744/746/745-
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Peter M
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« Reply #214 on: September 26, 2012, 11:16:35 PM »


WOW! Mommy, I want one of those for Christmas.

Yes about DYS504, but I'll let the rest of the group find the answer themselves.

Am I correct in assuming that the McCown/Walker cluster is so named because McCown is closest to modal, and Walker (that's me) is the conspicuous odd-ball with DYS459 = 9-9, the only L745- so far in DF41+ with those markers? Anybody have any insight into that?

Thanks for giving me the lead-in to ask something I've been dying to.

Larry Walker
DF41+, L744/746/745-

Well, it's currently only my personal naming ......  $:-)

I used McCown as they've invested significantly in SNP-testing and bring in a lot of 111 marker profiles. If one lives in the U106/Z18-world, one tends to value that.

The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.

There's nothing special about your DYS459b=9 marker. You don't have the partial ChrY deletion that is sometimes implied by DYS459a=DYS459b. The only thing is, it could have emerged in two ways: (1) a copy from DYS459a to DYS459b or (2) a -1 mutation in DYS459b independently. The difference is impossible to detect so most likely, you'll never find out with any type of test. See it as just a mutation like any other.

BTW, about DYS504, what IS the answer (I promise: I will not tell the rest) ? $:-)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 11:42:29 PM by Peter M » Logged
Larry Walker
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« Reply #215 on: September 27, 2012, 12:34:58 AM »

Quote

The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.

Ah so - beyond Y67. A compelling reason for getting some of my matches to upgrade to Y111.

Quote

There's nothing special about your DYS459b=9 marker. You don't have the partial ChrY deletion that is sometimes implied by DYS459a=DYS459b. The only thing is, it could have emerged in two ways: (1) a copy from DYS459a to DYS459b or (2) a -1 mutation in DYS459b independently. The difference is impossible to detect so most likely, you'll never find out with any type of test. See it as just a mutation like any other.


I wasn't thinking that kind of special. I had just recalled seeing a discussion someplace regarding a group in or close to Mike's 41-1426 where they were talking about 9-9 vs 9-10 and something about one probably being more Irish and the other more Scottish. It was one of those things I read but neglected to bookmark and couldn't find again later.

It's nice to know that I am not more weird than I already knew though  }:>))
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #216 on: September 27, 2012, 01:33:39 AM »


Quote
The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.

DYS394 aka DYS19 ?
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #217 on: September 27, 2012, 02:52:43 AM »

Quote
The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.
More profiles:

3 of 3
50301 Morrison, 121894 Morrison, 32434 Morrison, 240201 Walker, 52062 Miller, 82890 Morrison, 165908 Morrison, 45346 Morrison, 205235 Morrison, 163558 Morrison, 96950 Miller
2 of 3
156437 McBirnie, 170555 McBurney
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rms2
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« Reply #218 on: September 27, 2012, 03:56:04 AM »

@Peter

Thanks! Nice work.
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rms2
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« Reply #219 on: September 27, 2012, 03:57:09 AM »

Well, once again, no new DF41 results, and no new SNP test results period.

Sigh . . .

Maybe tomorrow?
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #220 on: September 27, 2012, 04:21:39 AM »

@Peter

Thanks! Nice work.

I second that, it's nice also that it shows wether a person is a member of the project or not. This at least gives us a clear enough list of people we need to "track down" to get to join.

I would add though that 42048 (Erwin) in the other group at the end is confirmed as DF41-.

-Paul
(DF41+)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 04:23:22 AM by Dubhthach » Logged
Peter M
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« Reply #221 on: September 27, 2012, 09:20:58 AM »

Quote
The name Walker being added refers to what could evolve to be a small (possibly Scottish) sub-group of the McCown/Walker Cluster with its own distinguishing DYS565=11/DYS394=15/DYS464c=16 motif. Walker would then be the McCown of this sub-group. Please note I said "could evolve". We need more profiles to learn if this is really an existing sub-group.
More profiles:

3 of 3
50301 Morrison, 121894 Morrison, 32434 Morrison, 240201 Walker, 52062 Miller, 82890 Morrison, 165908 Morrison, 45346 Morrison, 205235 Morrison, 163558 Morrison, 96950 Miller
2 of 3
156437 McBirnie, 170555 McBurney


The Morrisons are hiding away in their own web site. If anybody feels like getting the profiles and SNP-tests (if they are given) from there, I would be delighted. On the other hand, I guess three Morrison will do and one other, kit 121894, appears to be in the Scottish DNA Project. The problem is, that project takes half an eternity to download. At least it currently still does; I do hope things will stay that way.

I *do* hope, somebody will find the inspiration to approach the candidates in the potential Walker Group (Millers, McBurney and Johnston) and try convince them to order DF41 and join the project. Please note: I'm not 100% certain McBurney and Johnston have not already tested DF41 or any other SNPs.


Ah so - beyond Y67. A compelling reason for getting some of my matches to upgrade to Y111.


Yes, it would be a good idea to try to get one representative of each surname to upgrade to 111 markers. The results might tell more about the structure of the group and thus about the relationship between the individual members.
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Peter M
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« Reply #222 on: September 27, 2012, 10:11:36 AM »

For all who care, I've had a look at the McCown/Walker Cluster and found the following candidates. I do not know if any of these kits have already ordered a DF41 test.

NrKit#Y-SeachNameCountry
121624EE2U5McCownIreland
245814ZJZ3JMcCune
3151802--McCuneScotland
494904YTJK2WilsonEngland
5216478YRSCMcCleland
6109546SKRHHMcClellandScotland
725146YSZ3MMcClellan
8149709--McLelland
995276N7KNNMcLellan
101539564PCF6SmithEngland
1127212--SmithEngland
1225971--Ramsey
1330720GGTHCElderScotland
14933996P3NEEdwards
15147864--Webb ?
16187514--Braughton
17106240--HenryN-Ireland
1818391GXK6GChamberlain ?

Few of these kits have done much SNP-testing, but the match to the McCown/Walker Motif is reasonable at first sight; I haven't checked the GD's (!!).

I guess, people interested in the history of R-DF41 will find the last two surnames fascinating. $:-)

OK, and now back to R-Z18 !!
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 10:14:26 AM by Peter M » Logged
Dubhthach
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« Reply #223 on: September 27, 2012, 11:15:41 AM »

Of that list I only see the following in the L21 project
  • 21647 (McCleland) -- DF21-, L21+, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-
  • 93399 (Edwards) -- L21+ (no other SNP's tested)

Rich do you know if either have ordered DF41? I reckon McCleland would probably order it if was recommended to it, he's obviously done abit of SNP testing.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #224 on: September 27, 2012, 06:42:06 PM »

Neither of them has it on order, but Miller, kit 96950, mentioned by Peter above, has DF41 on order and is simply awaiting the result in Batch 482 (due date 07 Nov 2012).
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