World Families Forums - R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 30, 2014, 05:22:00 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 20 Go Down Print
Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 37350 times)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #125 on: September 15, 2012, 04:53:59 PM »

So, you have DF41 at just over 2,000 years old, but, given the margin of error, it's more accurate to say it's between 2,000 and 3,000 years old, correct?
Yes the variance is a bit wider without the Stu's causing the age to be a bit higher. Founders age is what should be used due to missing and unknown Hts.

I noticed that when using 111 markers the age calculation provides a noticeble decrease in an age of a clade which I believe is a more accurate result. 111 markers should be the standard for dating clades.

MikeW's feature in his Gen Estimator Time chart shows the age in thousands.
DF41 All Founders Age

Midpt   2S max   1S max   1S min   2S min
2.0   3.5   2.8   1.3   0.6
 
Need more HTs.

MJost



Okay, just for fun, let's agree that the age of DF41 is closer to 2,000 years than it is to 3,000 years. If it came into being and was first passed on around the first advent of Christ, what can we say about its present distribution? Perhaps rather than being able to say much of anything definite, that age estimation might be able to lead us to ask the right questions.

DF41 looks pretty Isles-ish right now.

  • What was going in the western part of the Isles (i.e., about the Irish Sea), where DF41 appears to be concentrated, about 2,000 years ago?
  • Did DF41 originate on the Continent about 2,000 years ago and spread to the Isles from there?
    Or . . .

  • Could DF41 have originated in Ireland and its appearance in Scotland, Wales, and western England be attributable to the arrival of Irish invaders in the latter days of the Roman occupation?

Other questions I have involve the Stewarts. The Stewarts are supposed to be of Breton origin, their ancestor arriving in England as part of the contingent of Breton knights who accompanied William the Conqueror and took part in the Norman Conquest. If DF41 is ultimately of British Isles origin, then either the tale of the Stewarts' Breton origin is merely a legend or their Breton ancestor was the descendant of a 5th century British refugee. Which is it? Or is DF41 not of British Isles origin? Perhaps it originated in France?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 05:03:46 PM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #126 on: September 15, 2012, 05:09:49 PM »

So, you have DF41 at just over 2,000 years old, but, given the margin of error, it's more accurate to say it's between 2,000 and 3,000 years old, correct?
Yes the variance is a bit wider without the Stu's causing the age to be a bit higher. Founders age is what should be used due to missing and unknown Hts.

I noticed that when using 111 markers the age calculation provides a noticeble decrease in an age of a clade which I believe is a more accurate result. 111 markers should be the standard for dating clades.

MikeW's feature in his Gen Estimator Time chart shows the age in thousands.
DF41 All Founders Age

Midpt   2S max   1S max   1S min   2S min
2.0   3.5   2.8   1.3   0.6
 
Need more HTs.

MJost



Okay, just for fun, let's agree that the age of DF41 is closer to 2,000 years than it is to 3,000 years. If it came into being and was first passed on around the first advent of Christ, what can we say about its present distribution? Perhaps rather than being able to say much of anything definite, that age estimation might be able to lead us to ask the right questions.

DF41 looks pretty Isles-ish right now.

  • What was going in the western part of the Isles (i.e., about the Irish Sea), where DF41 appears to be concentrated, about 2,000 years ago?
  • Did DF41 originate on the Continent about 2,000 years ago and spread to the Isles from there?
    Or . . .

  • Could DF41 have originated in Ireland and its appearance in Scotland, Wales, and western England be attributable to the arrival of Irish invaders in the latter days of the Roman occupation?


Rich,

First, congratulations on your DF41 assignment.
You know what this means?
1) The wily Scots managed to sneak in some Gaelic DNA into the Stewarts bloodline.
This would be the biggest "scoop" in British Royal family history since Alfred burnt the cakes:).
2) L21 or DF13 was born in the Isles and and the Breton Stewarts are descendants of Gaelic ancestors.
Take your pick.
3) I believe DF41 is a Hebrides based, Dal Riadian like line.
Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mark Jost
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 707


« Reply #127 on: September 15, 2012, 06:14:11 PM »

Rich,

It appears that the current crop of Stu's have the following age info (I hear someone else doesnt like my table format).

Founders 41-744-Stu
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   Max   VAR   SD
22.9   14.0   688.2   419.5   1,107.7   2.7   1.6

So 41-744-Stu Subclade isnt that old but could be around 1,107.7 ybp as the Gen111T shows. So I would like to see some other YDNA from The Stewarts who are still located in and are of a Breton origin.

MJost



Okay, just for fun, let's agree that the age of DF41 is closer to 2,000 years than it is to 3,000 years. If it came into being and was first passed on around the first advent of Christ, what can we say about its present distribution? Perhaps rather than being able to say much of anything definite, that age estimation might be able to lead us to ask the right questions.

DF41 looks pretty Isles-ish right now.

  • What was going in the western part of the Isles (i.e., about the Irish Sea), where DF41 appears to be concentrated, about 2,000 years ago?
  • Did DF41 originate on the Continent about 2,000 years ago and spread to the Isles from there?
    Or . . .

  • Could DF41 have originated in Ireland and its appearance in Scotland, Wales, and western England be attributable to the arrival of Irish invaders in the latter days of the Roman occupation?

Other questions I have involve the Stewarts. The Stewarts are supposed to be of Breton origin, their ancestor arriving in England as part of the contingent of Breton knights who accompanied William the Conqueror and took part in the Norman Conquest. If DF41 is ultimately of British Isles origin, then either the tale of the Stewarts' Breton origin is merely a legend or their Breton ancestor was the descendant of a 5th century British refugee. Which is it? Or is DF41 not of British Isles origin? Perhaps it originated in France?

Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Larry Walker
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #128 on: September 15, 2012, 06:22:55 PM »


How frequent is DF41 in Cornwall and the rest of SW England? How about Wales?
[/quote]

See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2012, 05:35:50 AM »


See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 05:52:18 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #130 on: September 16, 2012, 05:39:36 AM »



Rich,

First, congratulations on your DF41 assignment.
You know what this means?
1) The wily Scots managed to sneak in some Gaelic DNA into the Stewarts bloodline.
This would be the biggest "scoop" in British Royal family history since Alfred burnt the cakes:).
2) L21 or DF13 was born in the Isles and and the Breton Stewarts are descendants of Gaelic ancestors.
Take your pick.
3) I believe DF41 is a Hebrides based, Dal Riadian like line.

Thanks, Heber.

I would certainly be glad if DF41 turned out to be Gaelic, as you theorize. I will admit things are looking that way at this point.

But I also know, having looked at FTDNA's stats a number of times, that British Isles results outnumber continental results, especially those from France, by an enormous margin. Because of that, we aren't getting an accurate picture of things. I am not quite ready to dismiss the Breton origin of the Stewarts or of DF41.

I absolutely do not believe that either L21 or DF13 was born in the Isles, however.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 05:41:27 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #131 on: September 16, 2012, 05:56:37 AM »


See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.

I found him in the Riley DNA Project, and, sure enough, he is DF41+.

I'll try to recruit him for both the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.

His mdka came from Burscough, Lancashire.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2012, 06:13:57 AM »


See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.

I found him in the Riley DNA Project, and, sure enough, he is DF41+.

I'll try to recruit him for both the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.

His mdka came from Burscough, Lancashire.


Okay, I just sent an email off to the admin of the Riley DNA Project asking her to invite kit N76583 to join the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-DF41 and Subclades Project. I also asked her to invite all her L21+ and subclades members to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I noticed that Ryley, kit N76583, has 534=14. (I am not ready to surrender on that!)
Logged

Dubhthach
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #133 on: September 16, 2012, 06:59:24 AM »

Remember this goofy article? Sifting through its rubbish trying to find something interesting, I noticed this sentence, referring to the Duke of Buccleuch's y-dna test results:

Quote
The duke’s genetic marker is thought to take the story back to south-west England, suggesting that the Stewarts were originally Cornishmen.

Alistair Moffat appears to be the source of that information. At first, I thought he was referring to the Stewarts' Breton ancestry and making the assumption that most Bretons must be descended from 5th century British refugees from Cornwall. But then I began to wonder, does Scotland's DNA, which I understand is soon to become "Britain's DNA", have some data on Cornishmen that we don't know about?

How frequent is DF41 in Cornwall and the rest of SW England? How about Wales?

The even stupider headline that I saw in some rags were: "Bonnie Prince Charlie was really English" *rolls eyes* -- basically they were taken above bit about Cornwall and saying that would basically make him English -- leaving aside that core of Cornwall's population are Brythonic Celtic speakers who underwent language shift in last 400-500 years.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #134 on: September 16, 2012, 07:12:49 AM »

Remember this goofy article? Sifting through its rubbish trying to find something interesting, I noticed this sentence, referring to the Duke of Buccleuch's y-dna test results:

Quote
The duke’s genetic marker is thought to take the story back to south-west England, suggesting that the Stewarts were originally Cornishmen.

Alistair Moffat appears to be the source of that information. At first, I thought he was referring to the Stewarts' Breton ancestry and making the assumption that most Bretons must be descended from 5th century British refugees from Cornwall. But then I began to wonder, does Scotland's DNA, which I understand is soon to become "Britain's DNA", have some data on Cornishmen that we don't know about?

How frequent is DF41 in Cornwall and the rest of SW England? How about Wales?

The even stupider headline that I saw in some rags were: "Bonnie Prince Charlie was really English" *rolls eyes* -- basically they were taken above bit about Cornwall and saying that would basically make him English -- leaving aside that core of Cornwall's population are Brythonic Celtic speakers who underwent language shift in last 400-500 years.

I saw some of those, too.

I wondered about the Cornwall remark because my own surname, Stevens, is very common in Cornwall, and I have no idea who my immigrant ancestor was or where he came from. I know my family was on the western frontier along the Ohio River in Pennsylvania and what is now West Virginia very early on, and there was a lot of Scots-Irish settlement there. But the Scots-Irish weren't alone, so that fact isn't much help.
Logged

Mkk
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


« Reply #135 on: September 16, 2012, 07:21:38 AM »

I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #136 on: September 16, 2012, 07:26:37 AM »

I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 07:28:00 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #137 on: September 16, 2012, 02:30:22 PM »

I just sent Dr. Jim Wilson of Scotland's DNA an email asking him about S524 (DF41) in Cornwall, to find out if he has some information on it that we don't have. I specifically asked him if Alistair Moffat's comment to the media about the Stewarts' supposed Cornish origin was based on DF41 results in Cornwall or just Mr. Moffat's musings on the Stewart's alleged Breton ancestry.

I have communicated with Dr. Wilson in the past and have found him to be a super nice, down-to-earth guy.
Logged

Mkk
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


« Reply #138 on: September 16, 2012, 03:03:59 PM »

I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.
Logged
Dubhthach
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #139 on: September 16, 2012, 06:49:08 PM »

I just sent Dr. Jim Wilson of Scotland's DNA an email asking him about S524 (DF41) in Cornwall, to find out if he has some information on it that we don't have. I specifically asked him if Alistair Moffat's comment to the media about the Stewarts' supposed Cornish origin was based on DF41 results in Cornwall or just Mr. Moffat's musings on the Stewart's alleged Breton ancestry.

I have communicated with Dr. Wilson in the past and have found him to be a super nice, down-to-earth guy.

Interesting that there is now an "S524" label for DF41. It wouldn't surprise me though that it isn't included on their current chip given that it's only been available to test from FTDNA for about 6 months now. So they mightn't have any results.  Now my memory is abit hazy but my impression was that the Cornish angle was brought in to tie in with Stewarts Breton genealogy.

-Paul
(DF41+)
Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #140 on: September 16, 2012, 07:27:32 PM »


See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.

Actually there is a non-Irish name Riley in northern England (I think it was Lankashire or Cumbria) and comes from a placenames.  There is also a non-Irish name from (I think) Devon also named after a placename there I think.  Typically the non-Irish Reillys spell their name Riley.  The English Riley family are most famous for making cars like the Riley Elf etc in Britain many decades ago.

Duplicate names are a problem.  For example there are Kelly and Murphys famileis in Scotland that are native names (Kelly again after an placename).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 07:29:38 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #141 on: September 16, 2012, 07:36:14 PM »


See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am wondering if Scotland's DNA has some stats on parts of Britain that we don't have.

I noticed that the Semargl map has a Ryley, kit N76583, whom I hadn't heard of. It shows him in northern England, but, unless I am mistaken, Ryley is a variant of the Irish surname Reilly.

Actually there is a non-Irish name Riley in northern England (I think it was Lankashire or Cumbria) and comes from a placenames.  There is also a non-Irish name from (I think) Devon also named after a placename there I think.  Typically the non-Irish Reillys spell their name Riley.  The English Riley family are most famous for making cars like the Riley Elf etc in Britain many decades ago.

Duplicate names are a problem.  For example there are Kelly and Murphys famileis in Scotland that are native names (Kelly again after an placename).

Walter Raleigh came from Devon
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 07:39:16 PM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

df.reynolds
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 126


« Reply #142 on: September 16, 2012, 07:39:06 PM »

I just sent Dr. Jim Wilson of Scotland's DNA an email asking him about S524 (DF41) in Cornwall, to find out if he has some information on it that we don't have. I specifically asked him if Alistair Moffat's comment to the media about the Stewarts' supposed Cornish origin was based on DF41 results in Cornwall or just Mr. Moffat's musings on the Stewart's alleged Breton ancestry.

I have communicated with Dr. Wilson in the past and have found him to be a super nice, down-to-earth guy.

Interesting that there is now an "S524" label for DF41. It wouldn't surprise me though that it isn't included on their current chip given that it's only been available to test from FTDNA for about 6 months now. So they mightn't have any results.  Now my memory is abit hazy but my impression was that the Cornish angle was brought in to tie in with Stewarts Breton genealogy.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I obtained a list of all SNPs under R-L21/S145 that are included in the ScotlandsDNA test from Dr Wilson a while back, and you are correct DF41 is not included. List is available at:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-df21/default.aspx?section=news

Regards,
david
Logged
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #143 on: September 16, 2012, 07:57:39 PM »

hey! congradulations Stevo!

Could there be an early Scandinavian connection?
I like the underdog!

I suppose you can call me Dad now with my DF13**



Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Larry Walker
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #144 on: September 16, 2012, 08:06:21 PM »


See http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/1309/

I suspect that the reason the sample there is so skimpy is that most people do not go through the extra step of finding latitude/longitude for their most distant ancestors.

Unfortunately, that map is not up to date, which is understandable, since things are changing rapidly for DF41. I know of a couple of Welsh DF41+ already, and they're not on that map.

I am not sure that it is that out of date as they appear to be updating it daily. So, I go back to my suspicion that the no-shows are because individuals do not have latitude/longitude of their most distant known ancestor in their profiles. For example, I have 21 Y67 matches at a GD of 7 or less. 9 show up on my FTDNA matches map.

I cannot compare how many DF41's show up on FTDNA's SNP map with those on Semargl for two reasons. FTDNA does not go to DF41 and, if it did, It shows clusters rather than individuals. Both approaches have useful purposes.

Since both maps do go to L21, I thought I would take a look at them although I would be comparing apple Clusters with orange Individuals. You might want to take a look at the Semargl map at that level and note the fairly large groups in western China that does not show up on FTDNA's map for example.

Please consider this constructive discussion and not a criticism of your response. I just don't want us overlooking an additional tool for our toolkit.

By the way. Because I still think the problem is lack of latitude/longitude, I put together a little location tutorial for newbies like myself. It is posted in the files section of the R-L21 Project's Yahoo group under "Y_DNA_TOOLS - A Location Tutorial for Newbies.pdf"

Cheers,
Larry
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #145 on: September 17, 2012, 04:04:23 AM »

I just sent Dr. Jim Wilson of Scotland's DNA an email asking him about S524 (DF41) in Cornwall, to find out if he has some information on it that we don't have. I specifically asked him if Alistair Moffat's comment to the media about the Stewarts' supposed Cornish origin was based on DF41 results in Cornwall or just Mr. Moffat's musings on the Stewart's alleged Breton ancestry.

I have communicated with Dr. Wilson in the past and have found him to be a super nice, down-to-earth guy.

I got an email reply from Dr. Wilson. He says the Telegraph got carried away; they don't have any S524 (DF41) samples from Cornwall yet, that the comment probably had something to do with 5th century British refugees.

He did tell me they have some Cornish samples and plan to screen them for S524 (DF41) in the next few months "as part of a wider survey of some of these more interesting new markers". He said they plan to do the same with some samples from Northern France.

I hope we hear about their findings.

Dr. Jim Wilson is a good guy.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 04:05:31 AM by rms2 » Logged

avalon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 176


« Reply #146 on: September 17, 2012, 04:44:01 AM »

I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.

Mkk

Are you sure that the POBI project are claiming that R1b dates back to the ice age, in line with Oppenheimer?

Logged
Mkk
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


« Reply #147 on: September 17, 2012, 02:38:21 PM »

I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.

Mkk

Are you sure that the POBI project are claiming that R1b dates back to the ice age, in line with Oppenheimer?


No, I just suggested it based upon the rather wide reportage of Oppenheimer, Sykes et. al a few years ago. It entered popular culture with National Geographic, the aforementioned books of Oppenheimer et. al, the spread of their theories into Britain's newspapers, the dissemination of their theories in programs such as "blood of the Irish" and so on.

I presume their paper will include suggestions on the origins of the various clusters they've found, so as I said they may explain their reasoning for a Paleolithic origin of  western Britain.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #148 on: September 17, 2012, 08:56:22 PM »

I count 26 DF41 tests still on my Pending Lab Results page and four on my Pending Shipment to Lab page.
Logged

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #149 on: September 18, 2012, 06:05:12 PM »

What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 20 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.108 seconds with 19 queries.