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Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 38955 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2012, 09:02:26 AM »

Good to hear that Dugger came back as DF41+, he's part of the same cluster as McCrere [41-1411]. From looking at Alex Willamson's tree it looks like quite an old branching moment between them.

I'm also trying to get hold of Nuckolls in that variety to suggest a DF41 test possibly followed up by a L563 test if DF41 is positive. We're running out of options for getting L563 out of the private status. Dugger is L563-.

Has an L744+ person tested for L563 or is it on order for one of them?
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k.o.gran
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« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2012, 09:12:46 AM »

Good to hear that Dugger came back as DF41+, he's part of the same cluster as McCrere [41-1411]. From looking at Alex Willamson's tree it looks like quite an old branching moment between them.

I'm also trying to get hold of Nuckolls in that variety to suggest a DF41 test possibly followed up by a L563 test if DF41 is positive. We're running out of options for getting L563 out of the private status. Dugger is L563-.

Has an L744+ person tested for L563 or is it on order for one of them?

According to your spredsheet, 143035 Stewart is L744+, L563-. This matches up with David's WTY PDF. :-)


-Kai
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« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2012, 12:09:04 PM »

Good to hear that Dugger came back as DF41+, he's part of the same cluster as McCrere [41-1411]. From looking at Alex Willamson's tree it looks like quite an old branching moment between them.

I'm also trying to get hold of Nuckolls in that variety to suggest a DF41 test possibly followed up by a L563 test if DF41 is positive. We're running out of options for getting L563 out of the private status. Dugger is L563-.

Has an L744+ person tested for L563 or is it on order for one of them?

According to your spredsheet, 143035 Stewart is L744+, L563-. This matches up with David's WTY PDF. :-)


-Kai

Also just to complete the circle L563+ is confirmed as L744- (35212 -- Creer). The 1426c's are confirmed as L744-/L746- and L563- (29705 -- McCown)

Now we just have to wait on the big order results to start coming in.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #103 on: September 14, 2012, 04:05:21 AM »

Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.
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Jdean
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« Reply #104 on: September 14, 2012, 05:03:10 AM »

Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Not unexpected of course, but good news nevertheless !!

I sure more positive results will be coming in shortly.
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rms2
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« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2012, 07:37:52 AM »

Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Not unexpected of course, but good news nevertheless !!

I sure more positive results will be coming in shortly.

Thanks, Dave. It was welcome news to me, since I had a tiny sliver of doubt about the whole thing that is now dispelled.

Self hasn't received his DF41 result yet, and he should be positive. I don't know about the rest. Some of the ones I expected to be positive, like MacPhee and Hosie, are not, and my theory about 534<=14 as a good indicator of DF41+ status is in danger of going completely down the drain.

But that's okay. I and my little cluster are DF41+, and that's a good thing. It feels like turning off the main highway and down a pleasant, tree-lined country lane.

DF13, I hardly knew ye!

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #106 on: September 14, 2012, 09:44:26 AM »

Congrats on the result Rich, it further confirms your cluster position within DF41. On other news interesting enough I see that Erwin (42048) who is very close to the Stewarts (7 @ 67 STR's) came back as DF41-!

Either a case of "convergent evolution" or there has been a mistake at the lab. Opinions?

-Paul
(DF41+)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #107 on: September 14, 2012, 12:00:09 PM »

Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Congrats Rich.  So, what individuals and clusters are DF41 so far?  Do the links fit what you thought or are they surprising?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 12:02:28 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #108 on: September 14, 2012, 03:16:01 PM »

Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Congrats Rich.  So, what individuals and clusters are DF41 so far?  Do the links fit what you thought or are they surprising?

It surprised me. I fully expected to be DF13** before my cluster brother Cooper got his DF41+ result.

I'm not sure of the names of all of Mike's clusters. I think he calls mine 41-1123 (the 41 is for DF41+).

Of course, one of the interesting things is the celebrity aspect of DF41, since the Royal House of Stewart has been proven to be DF41+, but I doubt the Duke of Buccleuch will be inviting me to tea anytime soon (although I will accept if he reads this and decides to do so). The Stewarts are L744+ and L745+ in addition to being DF41+.

The DF41+ category is on the last page of y-dna results at the R-L21 Plus Project web site.

There are five who list Ireland as ancestral homeland, five who list Scotland, five who list "United Kingdom", and two who list England. One of those UK guys has ancestry on the Isle of Man. The rest, including me, list "Unknown Origin". There is a Williams in the R-DF41 Project who identifies Wales as his ancestral homeland, but he isn't in the R-L21 Plus Project or at least hasn't made it into the DF41+ category yet, anyway.

There is also a Welsh Thomas out there somewhere who is supposed to be L745+ without being a Stewart or having their haplotype.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 03:21:23 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #109 on: September 14, 2012, 03:24:05 PM »

Congrats on the result Rich, it further confirms your cluster position within DF41. On other news interesting enough I see that Erwin (42048) who is very close to the Stewarts (7 @ 67 STR's) came back as DF41-!

Either a case of "convergent evolution" or there has been a mistake at the lab. Opinions?

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's a good question. I guess convergence might explain it.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #110 on: September 14, 2012, 03:37:44 PM »

Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Two levels shed in a matter of a few months? I'm jealous!!!

Congrats.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #111 on: September 14, 2012, 06:03:31 PM »

Congrats on the result Rich, it further confirms your cluster position within DF41. On other news interesting enough I see that Erwin (42048) who is very close to the Stewarts (7 @ 67 STR's) came back as DF41-!

Either a case of "convergent evolution" or there has been a mistake at the lab. Opinions?

-Paul
(DF41+)
Convergence, Exactly! I dont know if these others were considered or not but they are all on the same main branch.

Erwin 42028 is in the 1511 group out on a same twig with:
E11062 Tatard R-L21 1511 France,

a node back to another branch:
33413   Andersen(Nordland)   R-L21 1810 Norway,
N76294 Martinsen(Mosjøen) R-L21 1810,

yet another node (mv277) back:
N59178 Carroll R-L21/DF13* 13-1511A-T2-D Ireland,
139027 Ross R-L21 13-1511A-T2-D


at mv277 splits into anothe branch
21418 McRaney R-L21 13-1511A-T2-C Scotland
18569 White R-L21 13-1511A-T2-C zzCountry

and into mv272
88489 Heffernan R-L21 13-1511A-T2-C Ireland
121376 McCullar R-L21 13-1511A-T2-C Ireland

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #112 on: September 14, 2012, 06:12:59 PM »

Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Congrats!

Now I am depressed cuz I dont have a snp yet but hoping that when I do all my cluster matches back at least 1,500-2K ybp.

I will run a fluxus this weekend to see who begot whom.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #113 on: September 14, 2012, 06:32:52 PM »


Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning...

Congrats Rich.  So, what individuals and clusters are DF41 so far?  Do the links fit what you thought or are they surprising?

Congratulations, Rich. Whew! I was worried the last day or to it would come out negative somehow.

Here are the confirmed DF41+ individuals I can count so far:

f47694   MacMillan   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41- unnassigned   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Benbecula
f176148   Duffy   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1013   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f35550   Salmon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1013   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo
f57563   Cooper   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   UK
f59080   Stevens   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   zzzUnkOrigin
f163684   Webb   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1123   England
f85107   Dugger   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   zzzUnkOrigin
f92380   Hall   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   Ireland
f35212   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1411   Isle of Man (in Irish Sea near Scotland)
f38965   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   UK
f55021   McCrere   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1411   UK
fN12980   Bratin   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Kilskeery Parish
f211437   Bratton   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland
f103173   Cannon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   England, London
f227064   Gordon   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland
f156437   McBurney   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland
f32434   Morrison   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Scotland
f4500   Wilson   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland, Ulster
f20194   Wright   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C*   Ireland
f1503   McCown   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C-A   Ireland
f29705   McCown   R-L21/DF13/DF41*   41-1426C-A   Ireland, Ulster
f78799   Smith   R-L21/DF13/DF41   41-1426C-A   UK
f239315   Thompson   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744   41-744- unassigned   England, North West, Merseyside, Liverpool
f75703   zzzUnk(Webb)   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744*   41-744- unassigned   England
f16895   Clancey   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin
f52758   Mitchell   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f35963   Pearce   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   UK
f143035   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Broughshane
f40333   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f110059   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f128499   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland, Argyllshire, Appin
fN53630   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland, Perthshire, Foss
f115205   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   UK
f64547   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   UK
f5603   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin
f48747   Stewart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin
fE15052   Stuart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Ireland, Leinster, Dublin
f183344   Stuart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f147822   Stuart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Scotland
f53238   Stuart   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin
f148478   Thomas   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   Wales
f5987   zzzUnk(Stewart)   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745   41-744-Stu   zzzUnkOrigin


Is f75703's MDKA's surname Webb?

The R1b-L21 Haplotypes file has just been updated and it includes all of the people in the varieties above along with the rest of L21.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip
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rms2
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« Reply #114 on: September 14, 2012, 08:04:33 PM »

Thanks, everyone! I really appreciate the congratulations and good wishes.

@Mike

Kit 75703 has the surname Webb himself but he apparently doesn't know who his mdka is. He is an Australian. I emailed him about joining the R-DF41 and Subclades Project, but he hasn't joined yet.

I wish we could get all of those confirmed DF41+ guys to join the R-L21 Plus Project and the R-DF41 and Subclades Project.

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« Reply #115 on: September 14, 2012, 08:08:39 PM »

Well, I got my DF41+ result this morning, about a week after my kit went to the lab. My cluster brother Webb, kit 163684, also got a DF41+ result.

All the other DF41 results in the R-L21 Plus Project that I saw this morning were negative, unfortunately, but not all of the pending results have been posted yet.

I haven't had time yet to check much of anything else, because I am about to leave for work.

Two levels shed in a matter of a few months? I'm jealous!!!

Congrats.

It is pretty mind-bending. It seemed like I was R-M269* forever and then, beginning at the end of 2008, R-L21* forever. Finally, at the end of July, 2012, b*a*n*g!, I'm DF13+, and now,  b*a*n*g again!, I'm DF41+.

I am grateful to you and your 1000 Genomes compadres for the fine work uncovering these new SNPs.

THANKS!!!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 08:09:57 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #116 on: September 14, 2012, 08:54:31 PM »

Here is the n=44 DF41 xStu 67 marker Fluxus

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNbUE3bWszX2h6YU0/edit

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
RickA
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« Reply #117 on: September 14, 2012, 09:56:02 PM »

Congrats Rich. Glad to see your group has held together and seems to be reinforced with this new marker.
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« Reply #118 on: September 14, 2012, 09:57:48 PM »

Congrats Rich. Glad to see your group has held together and seems to be reinforced with this new marker.

Thanks, Rick. I remember from the old dna-forums days that you were the first to actually spot my cluster.

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #119 on: September 15, 2012, 12:18:51 AM »

Here is the n=44 DF41 xStu 67 marker Fluxus

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNbUE3bWszX2h6YU0/edit

MJost

I have now added STu's to this PDF.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9Y3jb2fORNajQ1cG1VSHVyMlE

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #120 on: September 15, 2012, 01:19:15 AM »

Gen111T results at 67 markers

DF41 xStu
IntraClade Coalescence Age
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   VARP   SD
76.9   25.6   2,308.3   768.2   9.0   3.0

Founder's Age
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   Max   VAR   SD
78.7   25.9   2,361.9   777.1   3,139.0    9.2   3.0
(Note that Fluxus has a Rho of 18.3 (GD) with years at 3,174 +-431 Ybp)

DF41 All
IntraClade Coalescence Age
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   VARP   SD
67.4   24.0   2,022.6   719.1   7.9   2.8

Founder's Age DF41 All
Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   +-YBP   Max   VAR   SD
68.1   24.1   2,041.9   722.5   2,764.5   8.0   2.8
(Note that Fluxus has a Rho of 20.0 (GD) years at 3,467 +-423 Ybp)


MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #121 on: September 15, 2012, 04:32:56 AM »

So, you have DF41 at just over 2,000 years old, but, given the margin of error, it's more accurate to say it's between 2,000 and 3,000 years old, correct?
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #122 on: September 15, 2012, 09:43:43 AM »

So, you have DF41 at just over 2,000 years old, but, given the margin of error, it's more accurate to say it's between 2,000 and 3,000 years old, correct?
Yes the variance is a bit wider without the Stu's causing the age to be a bit higher. Founders age is what should be used due to missing and unknown Hts.

I noticed that when using 111 markers the age calculation provides a noticeble decrease in an age of a clade which I believe is a more accurate result. 111 markers should be the standard for dating clades.

MikeW's feature in his Gen Estimator Time chart shows the age in thousands.
DF41 All Founders Age

Midpt   2S max   1S max   1S min   2S min
2.0   3.5   2.8   1.3   0.6
 
Need more HTs.

MJost

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #123 on: September 15, 2012, 03:58:24 PM »

I will probably upgrade to 111 markers eventually, especially now that I can kind of see a reason for doing so.

The main problem is money and conflicting priorities. I want to order mtDNA and Family Finder tests for my dad.

Maybe I'll win the lottery and be able to order everything at once. :-)
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« Reply #124 on: September 15, 2012, 04:11:02 PM »

Remember this goofy article? Sifting through its rubbish trying to find something interesting, I noticed this sentence, referring to the Duke of Buccleuch's y-dna test results:

Quote
The duke’s genetic marker is thought to take the story back to south-west England, suggesting that the Stewarts were originally Cornishmen.

Alistair Moffat appears to be the source of that information. At first, I thought he was referring to the Stewarts' Breton ancestry and making the assumption that most Bretons must be descended from 5th century British refugees from Cornwall. But then I began to wonder, does Scotland's DNA, which I understand is soon to become "Britain's DNA", have some data on Cornishmen that we don't know about?

How frequent is DF41 in Cornwall and the rest of SW England? How about Wales?
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