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Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 35121 times)
rms2
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« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2012, 06:17:20 AM »

There are now 30 orders for DF41 on my "Pending Shipment to Lab" page.

MacMillan has ordered L744, so we'll get a chance to see if 534>=15 within DF41 means L744+.

When I get the chance, I will urge those other guys mentioned by Paul above to test for DF41.
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rms2
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« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2012, 06:22:18 AM »

There are now 30 orders for DF41 on my "Pending Shipment to Lab" page.

. . .

In addition, there are eight DF41 orders on my "Pending Lab Results" page.

The "Pending Shipment to Lab" orders go to FTDNA's Houston lab this coming Wednesday. The "Pending Lab Results" orders are already there.
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k.o.gran
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« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2012, 06:42:15 AM »

I see Alex Williamson has posted a new Neighbour-joining (NJ) tree, interesting growth in DF41 "sub-tree", parts of it I'm quite dubious about.

See: http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/Files/R-L21%20Tree%2020120830.pdf

For example it seems to pull in a number of men who belong to following of Mikewww's clusters

  • 13-1511A-T2 -- Irish Type II -- think they are DF41-
  • 253-1711*/ 253-1716 -- I'm assuming these should test for Z253
  • 49-23-2123 -- DF49+/DF23+ perhaps?

I would imagine the only way to get better picture is to get more of the people in that NJ tree to test DF41, a DF41- result is just as informative as a DF41+ result that's for sure.

Paul,

The topmost part of the DF41 tree seems to be grouped there based on similarities with the L744 people. I'm talking about from N65343 Carroll to 88876 Kepler. There are a lot of long horizontal lines here, which tells me to be a bit careful with these suggestions. A DF41 test of one of these people would probably help sort this out in the next tree. A positive result would prove the grouping is correct, a negative result would move these people away from the DF41 page (if I understand the NJ tree correctly).

The two-person 2517 variety seems interesting, if I was one of those, I would absolutely try a DF41 test.
The 2323 variety is very interesting. This is the variety of L564. They should absolutely test for DF41 to try to get into the same "cloud" as L563 on Mike's haplotree.

I see that variety 41-1411 has been split into DF13 and DF41 on the newest NJ. Hall of that variety has DF41 pending, so we'll soon know where he belongs.

-Kai

Edit: I see that you wrote a very similar message to me on the yahoo forums. We seem to agree on these things. :)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 06:45:44 AM by k.o.gran » Logged

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df.reynolds
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« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2012, 06:47:53 AM »

..
That's great to hear. I see Alex Williamson has posted a new Neighbour-joining (NJ) tree, interesting growth in DF41 "sub-tree", parts of it I'm quite dubious about.
...
Nearby is also 208773 Reith (Germany) however his "cluster label" is [21-314-P*] (implies DF21?), he is DF13+ tested and in L21 project.
...
I think the approach to take is to "nibble" along the edges and try and get men who are close to confirmed DF41+ men to test, the more of these we get the higher my confidence in any future NJ trees will be.

-Paul
DF41+
Whether you are looking at MikeW's variety assignments, or the NJ diagrams done by Alex, "Identical by State" versus "Identical by Descent" leads to those dubious areas on the diagram and conflicting information. Reith is a good case in point. I can see why Mike assigned him to 21-314-P, but Reith is an outlier, so in his case, very much a speculative variety. I'd be kind of surprised if he tested DF21+ P314.2+; I don't know what the odds are for DF41, that is certainly speculative as well, but is probably just as likely as DF21.

I would agree that nibbling away around the edges is a good approach.

Regards,
david
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 06:48:39 AM by df.reynolds » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2012, 07:32:20 AM »

It's an interesting tree. I noticed Hamon of France, kit 84034, is in the DF41 section (which starts on page 85), as is Hebert of France, kit 4568. Hamon posts here.

Hebert is somewhat of an outlier relative to my cluster, so a DF41 test in his case would be interesting for me, with the added bonus that he is French.

Hamon's DF41 result would be interesting, too, since I know him, via email and this forum, at least, and he, too, is French.

It is interesting that at least one of the members of my cluster (I won't reveal who because I don't have his permission to do that) has a "100% French" result on the Population Finder portion of his Family Finder results. I realize, of course, that autosomal results can be totally unrelated to y-dna results, but it's still interesting.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2012, 07:38:09 AM »

I put in a request to FTDNA to setup a "DF41 & Subclades" project. Mentioned 5 working days so probably won't hear anything back this week ;-)

There a number of German's in that tree, obviously getting a DF41 result (+ or -) for some of them will help in long run. By getting 30 people to order there you'll probably increase the number of men who have tested for DF41 by about a 1/3rd!

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2012, 07:55:25 AM »

I put in a request to FTDNA to setup a "DF41 & Subclades" project. Mentioned 5 working days so probably won't hear anything back this week ;-)

There a number of German's in that tree, obviously getting a DF41 result (+ or -) for some of them will help in long run. By getting 30 people to order there you'll probably increase the number of men who have tested for DF41 by about a 1/3rd!

-Paul
(DF41+)

I'll join your project as soon as I get a DF41+ result, if I get a DF41+ result. I know the likelihood is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 99%, but, well, "there's a lot of slip 'twixt the cup and the lip", as the old folks used to say.

I've emailed Hamon, Hebert, and Iseman regarding DF41.
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rms2
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« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2012, 08:20:50 AM »

I've emailed Dane, Lurvey, and Thayer ("Tawier"), as well.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 08:21:04 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2012, 08:32:26 AM »

Okay, I've emailed Wright ("Reith"), as well.

I think that about does it for now.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2012, 09:31:18 AM »

Kai,

Thanks for pointing out about 2323 variety, I see that two of members of it are both confirmed as L564+, these been Daniel (9875) and Foerstner (105946). Both are these are in L21 project, it would be interesting to get one of them to test for DF41 that's for sure.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2012, 07:05:57 PM »

Kai,

Thanks for pointing out about 2323 variety, I see that two of members of it are both confirmed as L564+, these been Daniel (9875) and Foerstner (105946). Both are these are in L21 project, it would be interesting to get one of them to test for DF41 that's for sure.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Daniel is well tested. Would be great if he would order both DF41 and DF49, if both were negative, then the cluster would be DF13**. And if not, then L564 moves to a better home.

--david
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rms2
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« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2012, 07:38:55 PM »

Kai,

Thanks for pointing out about 2323 variety, I see that two of members of it are both confirmed as L564+, these been Daniel (9875) and Foerstner (105946). Both are these are in L21 project, it would be interesting to get one of them to test for DF41 that's for sure.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Daniel is well tested. Would be great if he would order both DF41 and DF49, if both were negative, then the cluster would be DF13**. And if not, then L564 moves to a better home.

--david

Coincidentally, he has both of those on order, in batch 479, due 17 October.
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rms2
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« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2012, 07:51:12 PM »

Thayer (Tawier), kit N91203, has ordered DF41. He seemed excited about it. Hope he gets a positive result.

Dane, kit 122895, sent me an email in response to mine, asking some questions about DF41. Maybe he'll order it, too.

I count 36 DF41 orders in "Pending Shipment to Lab", plus the eight already in "Pending Lab Results".

Not bad.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:55:23 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2012, 07:54:55 PM »

Thayer (Tawier), kit N91203, has ordered DF41. He seemed excited about it. Hope he gets a positive result.

Dane, kit 122895, sent me an email in response to mine, asking some questions about DF41. Maybe he'll order it, too.

I count 36 DF41 orders in "Pending Shipment to Lab", plus the eight already in "Pending Lab Results".

Not bad.

Wright (Reith), kit 208773, just ordered DF41, so make that 37 DF41 orders in "Pending Shipment to Lab".
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:55:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

Dubhthach
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« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2012, 04:01:46 AM »

Nice, from looking at Ireland project I see the following:
  • 1 pending -- Erwin, close match to Stewarts but L744-/L746-/L745-
  • 3 pending delivery to lab -- probably some overlap with those in L21 project

I wouldn't be surprised if this is most action in short period that one SNP has seen in FTDNA order log since at least DF13 or DF63 came available.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2012, 07:49:09 AM »

I hope we get a fair number of positives out of it. I kind of feel bad when I recommend a test to members, and they spend their hard-earned money for it, only to get a negative result. Of course, in every bulk email I always tell them there is no guarantee of a positive result.

This bunch should go to the lab sometime tomorrow. Hopefully the results won't take long.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 07:49:40 AM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2012, 08:37:52 AM »

has there been no DF41+ found in any Scandinavian countries?
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2012, 10:35:55 AM »

I hope we get a fair number of positives out of it. I kind of feel bad when I recommend a test to members, and they spend their hard-earned money for it, only to get a negative result. Of course, in every bulk email I always tell them there is no guarantee of a positive result.

This bunch should go to the lab sometime tomorrow. Hopefully the results won't take long.

I don't think there is any reason to feel bad about recommending testing for an subclade like this that they might be positive for. There are also success stories, like Cooper or Duffy on DF41, as well as negative hits. We don't know until we test.

What I feel bad about is when people test for things they can't be positive for. I just saw an order for one of these SNPs for an L513+ person that I know they can't have. I try to catch those and I try to provide education as much as I can, but it still seems to happen anyway.
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rms2
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« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2012, 11:34:30 AM »

I do, too. I sent that bulk email only to the DF13+ category that has not tested positive for any downstream SNP yet. I missed something, though. I left the L555+ guys in that group, and one of them ordered DF41. As soon as I saw it, I emailed him and advised him to cancel the order, which he did.

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rms2
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« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2012, 11:36:24 AM »

has there been no DF41+ found in any Scandinavian countries?

Nope, no non-Brits or non-Irish at all yet, although I expect there to be some. I don't know about Scandinavians. I do think we'll bag some French DF41s, though.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 11:36:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2012, 08:36:54 PM »

Batch 480 is the batch to watch for DF41, with results due 24 October 2012.

There are 42 DF41 tests in that batch.

Not bad!
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rms2
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« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2012, 08:41:56 PM »

Batch 480 is the batch to watch for DF41, with results due 24 October 2012.

There are 42 DF41 tests in that batch.

Not bad!


I meant to say there are 42 DF41 tests on members of the R-L21 Plus Project in Batch 480.

There could be a few more from outside the project, as well, I guess.

My own DF41 test is in Batch 480.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 08:43:02 PM by rms2 » Logged

Dubhthach
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« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2012, 05:05:22 AM »

In a signal batch we'll increase the number of DF41 testers in FTDNA by close on 40% now that's impressive. It's gonna be a interesting couple of weeks that's for sure!

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2012, 06:46:58 AM »

In a signal batch we'll increase the number of DF41 testers in FTDNA by close on 40% now that's impressive. It's gonna be a interesting couple of weeks that's for sure!

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yes, and there were already eight DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results before Batch 480 went in, so that makes 50. In addition, two more orders for DF41 have come in since 480 became a batch, but they are too late for this week and won't go to the lab until next Wednesday (Batch 481, I guess).

I am really excited about this. I would like to see more discussion of it, but I realize as we narrow down our SNPs, we involve fewer and fewer people.

Nobody commented on my earlier post about all but one of the current DF41+ guys having 534<=14. All of the L744+ guys, including those who are L745+, have 534>=15. I wonder if that has any significance or offers us any kind of clue in detecting potential DF41+ folks. The one DF41+ guy with 534=15 is MacMillan, and he has ordered L744.
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rms2
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« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2012, 07:52:37 AM »

Hall, kit 92380, is DF41+. I don't know yet to which of Mike's clusters he belongs, but he has 534=14, which is apparently the modal for DF41 (xL744).

Daniels came up DF41- and DF49-.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 11:32:55 AM by rms2 » Logged

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