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Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 44108 times)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2012, 09:50:33 PM »

Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141

To follow up on this we have confirmation today that following are DF41-
L371+
L144+
Z253+
Z255+
L96+
L555+

Once I get the results for L744 and DF21 I'll be submitting DF41 for inclusion in ISOGG tree. The other result today is that DF41+ is confirmed as DF49-

Thanks for beating me to it, Dubhthach. I was just going to report the results for some of our Z255+ guys!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Dubhthach
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« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2012, 02:06:07 PM »

Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141

To follow up on this we have confirmation today that following are DF41-
L371+
L144+
Z253+
Z255+
L96+
L555+

Once I get the results for L744 and DF21 I'll be submitting DF41 for inclusion in ISOGG tree. The other result today is that DF41+ is confirmed as DF49-

Thanks for beating me to it, Dubhthach. I was just going to report the results for some of our Z255+ guys!

One thing we should look at is Z255+ status with regards to ISOGG. It's not currently on their tree as it's phylogeny hasn't been verified let with regards to all current ISOGG SNP's.

-Paul
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2012, 04:03:19 PM »

Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141

To follow up on this we have confirmation today that following are DF41-
L371+
L144+
Z253+
Z255+
L96+
L555+

Once I get the results for L744 and DF21 I'll be submitting DF41 for inclusion in ISOGG tree. The other result today is that DF41+ is confirmed as DF49-

Thanks for beating me to it, Dubhthach. I was just going to report the results for some of our Z255+ guys!

One thing we should look at is Z255+ status with regards to ISOGG. It's not currently on their tree as it's phylogeny hasn't been verified let with regards to all current ISOGG SNP's.

-Paul

I wonder if it has to do with L159.2's volatility? For some reason, getting folks to test for Z255 these days has been more difficult than usual.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Dubhthach
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« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2012, 07:11:59 AM »

Just an update a DF21+ came back as DF41- today. This confirms DF41 placement with regards to all currently listed ISOGG SNP's. I've submitted it for inclusion.
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rms2
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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2012, 09:26:01 PM »

I thought I would bump up this thread to talk about DF41, since my cluster brother Cooper, kit 57563, Ysearch 4BN3G, got a DF41+ result a couple of days ago. So, it looks very likely I will get a DF41+ result, too (I hope).

Of the 15 men currently in the DF41+ category in the R-L21 Plus Project (I am leaving out for now those who have tested L744+ or L745+), here are what they list as their ancestral homelands:

Scotland = 5
Ireland = 4
Northern Ireland = 2
United Kingdom = 2
Isle of Man = 1
England = 1


The two who list "United Kingdom" are Americans who are not currently able to get their y lines out of North America but who have British surnames.



« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 09:26:58 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2012, 09:35:00 PM »

I count 77 men who have been tested for DF41 in the R-L21 Plus Project. That's not near enough.

We need a lot more DF41 testing.
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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2012, 09:51:36 PM »

I count 77 men who have been tested for DF41 in the R-L21 Plus Project. That's not near enough.

We need a lot more DF41 testing.

Only two of our French members have been tested for DF41. One Spaniard has tested for it, and one Portuguese guy. One Dane and two Germans have tested for DF41.

That's it for continental DF41 testing: 7.

Yikes!!!

Thus far there are no DF41+ results from the European continent, but, with only seven continentals tested, not much can be said about it.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 09:55:22 PM by rms2 » Logged

Dubhthach
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« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2012, 06:27:55 AM »

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)
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k.o.gran
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« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2012, 06:58:49 AM »

I'm trying to see if we can get L563 on the isogg tree, so there are some DF41 tests pending for people who are very likely DF41+.

I think the main reason we don't see too many people testing past L21 is that FTDNA's haplotree is terribly outdated. So is the deep clade test. This is how FTDNA (still) describe the deep clade test:
Quote
The Deep Clade test will determine what your assignment is within the Haplogroup tree. The lab will start with a prediction of your haplogroup assignment, and then test however many SNPs are necessary within the tree in order to determine your subclade assignment.
I thought it sounded like a good deal when I ordered it one and a half year ago. When it was done, I knew that I was L21*. I started to look for more information and soon found that I was not L21* at all. I was only L21+. Then I started ordering SNPs from the draft tree to try to get further down the branches of the tree. Many of the tests I ordered had a 0% chance of testing positive, but I did not know that back then. It all comes down to lack of good information.

I think what has been done to reorganize the R-L21 project is brilliant! I believe new members are a lot more likely to do advanced SNP testing. And I really hope that people who want to test but feel confused contact either a project admin or the L21 yahoo group.

I've contacted quite a few people with testing suggestions and most of them are very grateful when getting advice and end up ordering the SNP.

-Kai
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Heber
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« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2012, 08:08:39 AM »

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.
Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies.
IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763689694/

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2012, 08:28:36 AM »

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

Thanks, Paul.

The 77 figure I had was from the R-L21 Plus Project, so obviously some folks who are not in the project have tested for DF41. 20 out of 101 is not a bad frequency, but I am guessing many of those who tested probably did so because they are in the same cluster with some of the guys who had already tested DF41+, so that 20 out of 101 is not purely random. Otherwise DF41 would account for nearly 20% of all L21! I don't think that's the case.

I'm also guessing a lot of that L744, L746, L745 testing comes by way of the Stewarts.

Only a handful of our project members have tested for L563, and only one of them, Creer, got a positive result.
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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2012, 08:35:57 AM »

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.
Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies.
IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763689694/

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.


I'm interested in your view that the surname Stevens is connected to Clan McTavish, Heber. I'm not sure that's right in my particular case, although I would be mightily pleased if it were. My matches seem to point to the West Midlands of England, but admittedly most of them can't get their y lines out of North America. I do have a solid 65/67 match with a man whose family came from Shropshire near the Welsh border. He himself was born in Worcester. That match is the biggest clue I have, although we don't share the same surname. He has no matches in his own surname project, however. Most of his closest matches are Stevenses and Stephenses.

A funny coincidence regarding DF41 is that one of my 2nd great grandmothers was a Stewart, and I have a bunch of the L745+ Stewarts as Family Finder matches.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 08:36:36 AM by rms2 » Logged

k.o.gran
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« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2012, 08:36:19 AM »

Only a handful of our project members have tested for L563, and only one of them, Creer, got a positive result.

Yes, it seems quite small. One person (Dugger) in Creer's cluster has already tested L563-. We've got a few more candidates, but it seems we're running out. BTW: L563 was found in Creer's WTY.

-Kai
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rms2
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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2012, 08:40:21 AM »

I heard from another of my cluster brothers, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, this morning. He's going to order DF41.

He's a 66/67 match for Cooper, so he'll be DF41+.
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rms2
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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2012, 08:43:34 AM »

Only a handful of our project members have tested for L563, and only one of them, Creer, got a positive result.

Yes, it seems quite small. One person (Dugger) in Creer's cluster has already tested L563-. We've got a few more candidates, but it seems we're running out. BTW: L563 was found in Creer's WTY.

-Kai

Maybe it'll turn out to be the Isle of Man SNP, since that's where Creer's mdka came from.

I'll probably test for it eventually, if I do actually get a DF41+ result, as well as L744/L746 and L745.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 08:44:25 AM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2012, 08:57:13 AM »

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.
Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies.
IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763689694/

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.


I'm interested in your view that the surname Stevens is connected to Clan McTavish, Heber. I'm not sure that's right in my particular case, although I would be mightily pleased if it were. My matches seem to point to the West Midlands of England, but admittedly most of them can't get their y lines out of North America. I do have a solid 65/67 match with a man whose family came from Shropshire near the Welsh border. He himself was born in Worcester. That match is the biggest clue I have, although we don't share the same surname. He has no matches in his own surname project, however. Most of his closest matches are Stevenses and Stephenses.

A funny coincidence regarding DF41 is that one of my 2nd great grandmothers was a Stewart, and I have a bunch of the L745+ Stewarts as Family Finder matches.


Rich,
On the Clan McTavish official site:

CLAN FAMILY NAMES: Cash, Holmes, Kash, MacCamish, MacCash, MacCavish, MacComb, MacCombie, MacComich, MacComish, MaComie, Macomie, MacCosh, MacLaws, MacElhose, MacLehose, MacTavish, McTavish, Mactavish, Mactavis, M'Tavish, MacTeague, MacThomas, Stephens, Stephenson, Stevens, Stevenson, Tavish, Tawesson, Teague, Thom, Thomas, Thomason, Thomasson, Thompson, Thomson, Tod, and Todd, and all variant spellings are welcome to join us in celebrating our shared Scottish Highlands heritage.  More information on clan names . . .

Their Clan History is here...
http://www.clanmactavish.org/pages/history.php

"Names, variant names, and septs for Clan MacTavish include Cash, MacCash, MacCavish, MacLehose, MacSteaphain, MacTavish, MacThom, MacThomas, Stephen(son), Steven(son), Tais, Taws, Taweson, Thom, Thomas, Thomason, Thompson, Thomson, Tod(d) and all variant spellings."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacTavish

Of course there is no guarantee that your specific Stevens line is related to the McTavish Clan, however it is an interesting possibility.





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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Dubhthach
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« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2012, 12:25:30 PM »

According to FTDNA draft y tree a total of 101 men have been tested of which 20 are derived. I assume this includes some of the L744/L746 folks, I had sponsor one of them to test DF41 when I was in process of getting it added to the ISOGG tree.

The other relevant stats are:

L744: 20 derived / 183 tested
L746: 20 derived / 420 tested
L745: 19 derived / 177 tested

L563: 3 derived / 245 tested

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813501

-Paul
(DF41+)

If we look at the surnames positive for DF41+, many can be traced to Scotland (Galloway, Argyl, Hebrides) including Duffy (MacFie), Stevens (McTavish), McBurney, McCown, Cannon.
Most of these trace their clan affiliations to Dal Riadia Genealogies.
IF we then look at the surrounding DF13 with clades greater than 5% (DF41 is 3%) we get a dominantly Gaelic signature.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763689694/

If this is correct it raises the interesting case of the Stewart Royal Line (FitzAlen) downstream of DF41 (L744,L745,L746) could have Gaelic blood lines after all.


There are fairly large Genetic Distances between DF41+ clusters. For example I have a GD of 20 @67 with Chris who is 1426c (Galloway origin). Likewise with MacMillian (Hebridies) I have a GD of 18 @67. DF41 is old, it well predates surname formation in either Ireland or Scotland, probably on order of at least 1,000 years.

Actually I be interested in seeing what GD I have with Rich and Cooper. With them added in it looks like DF41 is considerably older then we thought or so my reading of Mark (Jost) TMRCA calculations go.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2012, 02:17:41 PM »

@Paul

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2012, 03:06:37 PM »

@Paul

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

Nice alright well comparing my kit to Cooper's using ysearch (PP38U) I see a GD of 30 @ 67 markers! This is I think the highest GD I've seen with any other DF41+ person.

Regarding earlier post on percentages, I could be wrong but I believe the anonymous researcher who found DF41 in the 1000 genomes samples is reported to have said that DF41+ made up about 5% of L21+ samples.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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Heber
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« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2012, 03:26:49 PM »

@Paul

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

Nice alright well comparing my kit to Cooper's using ysearch (PP38U) I see a GD of 30 @ 67 markers! This is I think the highest GD I've seen with any other DF41+ person.

Regarding earlier post on percentages, I could be wrong but I believe the anonymous researcher who found DF41 in the 1000 genomes samples is reported to have said that DF41+ made up about 5% of L21+ samples.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Here is a good analysis of DF41.

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_DF41.html

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_L744.html
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 03:46:20 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2012, 08:54:31 PM »

Another of my cluster brothers, Webb, kit 163684, has ordered DF41.

I sent out a bulk email to the DF13+ members of the R-L21 Plus Project who don't yet have a subclade and have not yet tested for DF41 urging them to test for it. The response has been excellent thus far. There are a lot of new DF41 test orders in time to go to the lab this Wednesday.
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« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2012, 09:01:56 PM »

@Paul

If you want to check genetic distances, my Ysearch ID is HX9ZF. Cooper's is 4BN3G.

Another member of our cluster, Self, Ysearch 54XP8, kit 53479, just joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has DF41 on order now. I went ahead and put Self in the DF41+ category because he is a 66/67 match to Cooper.

Another likely DF41+ just joined the project: Walker, kit 240201. His entry is in the "Test Results Pending" category.

Nice alright well comparing my kit to Cooper's using ysearch (PP38U) I see a GD of 30 @ 67 markers! This is I think the highest GD I've seen with any other DF41+ person.

Regarding earlier post on percentages, I could be wrong but I believe the anonymous researcher who found DF41 in the 1000 genomes samples is reported to have said that DF41+ made up about 5% of L21+ samples.

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's not too bad. How many L21+ samples did they have?

I think Casey's analysis (at the links posted by Heber above) may be a little dated now, even though he published it in July of this year. DF41 may be older and bigger than he thought, since he based his ideas on what was known then.
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« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2012, 09:40:08 PM »

Here's something I noticed: all but one of the guys in the DF41+ category have 534<=14, yet all of those who are L744+, including the L745+ guys, have 534>=15.

I don't know how significant that is.

MacMillan, kit 47694, is the one guy in the DF41+ category who has 534=15. If he tests L744+, that would be interesting.
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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2012, 03:57:24 AM »

Here's something I noticed: all but one of the guys in the DF41+ category have 534<=14, yet all of those who are L744+, including the L745+ guys, have 534>=15.

I don't know how significant that is.

MacMillan, kit 47694, is the one guy in the DF41+ category who has 534=15. If he tests L744+, that would be interesting.

The McMillans were another great Gaelic Clan from the Hebrides, their name meaning "son of the monk".

"The MacMillans are one of a number of clans - including the MacKinnons, the MacQuarries, and the MacPhees - descended from Airbertach, a Hebridean prince of the old royal house of Moray who according to one account was the great-grandson of King Macbeth."
"Bishop Cormac's son Gilchrist or, in Gaelic, Gille Chrisosd, the prognenitor of the Clann an Mhaoil, was a religious man like his father; and it was because of this that he wore the tonsure which gave him the nickname Maolan or Gillemaol. As a Columban priest, his head would have been shaved over the front of his head in the style of St. John, rather than at the vertex of head (the dominant style in The Church of Rome). This distinctive tonsure is described in Gaelic as 'Mhaoillan'. The name MacMillan thus literally means, "son of the tonsure"."

It will be facinating to see how all of these Clan relationships stack up with further testing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacMillan
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2012, 05:17:14 AM »

Another of my cluster brothers, Webb, kit 163684, has ordered DF41.

I sent out a bulk email to the DF13+ members of the R-L21 Plus Project who don't yet have a subclade and have not yet tested for DF41 urging them to test for it. The response has been excellent thus far. There are a lot of new DF41 test orders in time to go to the lab this Wednesday.

That's great to hear. I see Alex Williamson has posted a new Neighbour-joining (NJ) tree, interesting growth in DF41 "sub-tree", parts of it I'm quite dubious about.

See: http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/Files/R-L21%20Tree%2020120830.pdf

For example it seems to pull in a number of men who belong to following of Mikewww's clusters

  • 13-1511A-T2 -- Irish Type II -- think they are DF41-
  • 253-1711*/ 253-1716 -- I'm assuming these should test for Z253
  • 49-23-2123 -- DF49+/DF23+ perhaps?

I would imagine the only way to get better picture is to get more of the people in that NJ tree to test DF41, a DF41- result is just as informative as a DF41+ result that's for sure.

Anyways some interesting ones that should probably order DF41

N42297 Issemann (France) -- appears to cluster with MacMillian who is DF41+ , is in the L21 project
122895 Dane -- appears to cluser with MacMillian and Issemann, also in L21 project

Nearby is also 208773 Reith (Germany) however his "cluster label" is [21-314-P*] (implies DF21?), he is DF13+ tested and in L21 project.

Over beside me (Duffy -- 176148) I see N91203 Tawier (England) and N26237 Lurvey, both are also in L21 project.

I think the approach to take is to "nibble" along the edges and try and get men who are close to confirmed DF41+ men to test, the more of these we get the higher my confidence in any future NJ trees will be.

-Paul
DF41+
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