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Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 36001 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: April 19, 2012, 09:24:38 AM »

DF41 is old and could be widespread.

We have two DF41+ folks that I know of.

f176148___ Duffy____________________ R-L21**______________________ 41- unnassigned_____ PP38U___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f29705____ McCown___________________ R-L21*_______________________ 41-1426C-A__________ P8ZR6___ Ireland, Ulster


Looks like Duffy has lost his ** status. I've been unable to assign him to any variety. The other DF41+, McCown, is in the 1426C variety which I think is a fairly firm STR signature.

f176148 Duffy has GD's in the 16 to 25 range at 67 markers from the folks
in the 41-1426C variety. I count his GD from DF41+ f29705 McCown as 20 including differences at 4 slow STRs.

I don't think DF41 has been thoroughly tested by FTDNA (as displayed in our haplotrees publicly) across the other major subclades of L21 although I know an L513+ guy is DF41-. However, in the HG project results, DF41 appears to be parallel to the other large subclades so it might be time to start thinking about creating a category for it in the L21 project.

Here are the rest of the 1426C guys:

f130615___ Barton___________________ zzPredicted__________________ 41-1426C*___________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f223382___ Barton___________________ zzPredicted__________________ 41-1426C*___________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f211437___ Bratton__________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ GKRCZ___ Ireland
f75460____ Majors___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ 6BZ7V___ zzzUnkOrigin
f156437___ McBurney_________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ ___ Scotland
f170555___ McBurney_________________ zzPredicted__________________ 41-1426C*___________ WFPQ5___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Armagh, Ballysheilmore
f21647____ McCleland________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ 8YRSC___ zzzUnkOrigin
f52062____ Miller___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ 6YU4P___ Ireland
f96950____ Miller___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ Z4EKZ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f4500_____ Wilson___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C*___________ NX6G9___ Ireland, Ulster
f18391____ Chamberlain______________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C-A__________ GXK6G___ zzzUnkOrigin
f93399____ Edwards__________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C-A__________ ___ zzzUnkOrigin
f1503_____ McCown___________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C-A__________ HZUXJ___ Ireland
f29705____ McCown___________________ R-L21*_______________________ 41-1426C-A__________ P8ZR6___ Ireland, Ulster
f78799____ Smith____________________ R-L21________________________ 41-1426C-A__________ WS99W___ UK
f213376___ zzzUnknown_______________ zzPredicted__________________ 41-1426C-A__________ ___ Scotland


BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Here is the status of pending DF41 tests in the Irish project.
Quote from: Paul D
Looking at the pending results in Ireland yDNA project I see at least 5 DF41 tests have just been batched. These will be part of batch 460. These been:

1503 -- McCown
31795 -- Hopkins
35550 -- Salmon
N8772 -- Porter
N36830 -- Moore

There are two other pending DF41 results which are part of batch 459, these been:
 91704 -- Kelly   
228772 -- Reid
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2012, 10:17:30 AM »

I posted this to Paul, the new DF41 guy, on the Yahoo L21 Project and thought I would mention it here.

"Using MikeW L21ext sheet and the modified GD counter it shows 33 mutations
between you and McCown 29705 whom which is the smallest of the 1426c cluster
range that has up to 39 differences. TMRCA range is around 2030 to 2399 ybp
between you and the 1426c's.

"This is a pretty old SNP! It will take a large testing effort to define the
haplotype bell curve."
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Dubhthach
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 01:52:24 PM »

BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Mike I could be wrong on here but perhaps "Irish C" = Irish Sea, given that my fellow DF41 appears to have ancestry in and around Galloway (Land of the Gall-Ghaeil).

Thanks for creating the thread. There is at least two other DF41's in batch 460. With regards to other major SNP's I know there is a M222 (thus DF23) awaiting DF41 results in batch 459 (Kelly)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 02:11:46 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2012, 02:21:38 PM »

BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Mike I could be wrong on here but perhaps "Irish C" = Irish Sea, given that my fellow DF41 appears to have ancestry in and around Galloway (Land of the Gall-Ghaeil)...

My understanding is there is a an Irish Sea haplotype and it is the equivalent to what some call Leinster and other Lagin.  Perhaps that's why they switched to "C". 

... or does this have anything to do with the Irish Causeway?   I see another reference on the web to Irish "C" and then they refer to the Causeway in Co. Antrim.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant%27s_Causeway
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 05:18:07 PM »

Definitely has that strong western Scottish - Ulster - Irish connection which seems incredibly common in clusters and doesnt all seem to be down to the Ulster Plantation of the 17th century.  There must have been an awful lot of movement in that sea channel over 1000s of years. 
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 03:22:32 PM »

some call Leinster and other Lagin.  Perhaps that's why they switched to "C". 


Just to explain this. The province is called Leinster in English and Laighin in Modern Irish. In older Irish writings the h was often left out or written with an overdot thence in old irish you will see: laigin or Laiġin (overdot on g).

Of course the modern boundaries of Leinster are considerably larger then the historic province.



vs.

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 06:29:09 PM »

some call Leinster and other Lagin.  Perhaps that's why they switched to "C". 


Just to explain this. The province is called Leinster in English and Laighin in Modern Irish. In older Irish writings the h was often left out or written with an overdot thence in old irish you will see: laigin or Laiġin (overdot on g).

Of course the modern boundaries of Leinster are considerably larger then the historic province.



vs.



They won the rugby v Ulster tonight.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2012, 08:00:20 AM »

some call Leinster and other Lagin.  Perhaps that's why they switched to "C". 


Just to explain this. The province is called Leinster in English and Laighin in Modern Irish. In older Irish writings the h was often left out or written with an overdot thence in old irish you will see: laigin or Laiġin (overdot on g).

Of course the modern boundaries of Leinster are considerably larger then the historic province.



vs.



They won the rugby v Ulster tonight.

Well if you believe some wags the Leinster Rugby team only really represents "the Pale", thence their moaning bout people from likes of Kilkenny/Offaly supporting Munster hah!

Of course historically County Louth was regarded as part of Ulster until the 17th century. (Oirialla -- Airghíalla in old Irish -- Oriel in english)
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A.D.
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2012, 10:21:28 PM »

At one time Ulladh (Ulster) took up nearly half of Ireland as far as the 'Black Pigs Dyke'
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2012, 11:47:45 AM »

At one time Ulladh (Ulster) took up nearly half of Ireland as far as the 'Black Pigs Dyke'

Back Pigs Dyke is in Cavan, Leitrim etc this is hardly half of Ireland. If anything it reflects pretty much the modern defintion of the boundaries of province of Ulster



Half of Ireland would be a line from Galway to Dublin. This would include all of Meath and Connacht, it maps to the pseudo-historical concept of "Leath Cuinn" (Conn's half) which maps to the geological "Eiscir Riada" (glacial ridge geological structure), on which ran the "Slí Mór" and was followed in modern times by the N6 national road and the new M4/M6 motorway.



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McCown
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2012, 07:52:38 PM »

That's correct, I believe that 1426ers are "mostly" from Kirkcudbright/Galloway and that many of them show a most distant known ancestor from Ireland because they are Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots.

I think they are from Galloway because  A) Clan MacLellan is from Kirkcudbright and there are a lot of McClellan matches in 1426C.  B) Many of the 1426C surnames are on the list bellow.

http://boards.ancestry.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=98&p=localities.britisles.scotland.kkd.general

Barton, Bratton, Burney(McBurnie), Cannon, Cowan(McCown), Chambers(Chamberlain), Gordon, McClellan, McCune, Miller, Nicholson(Nichols), Ramsey, Robinson, Smith, Tait, Turner, Wilson, Wright.... possibly Morrison?

The thing I'm most curious about... is how did they get to Galloway( a melting pot of sorts ).  I want to say they are not Normans because kit 29705 had no French in the "population finder".  I figure they are either Saxons, Picts, or Gaels.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 07:53:02 PM by McCown » Logged

DF41+
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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2012, 11:16:33 PM »

BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Mike I could be wrong on here but perhaps "Irish C" = Irish Sea, given that my fellow DF41 appears to have ancestry in and around Galloway (Land of the Gall-Ghaeil).

Thanks for creating the thread. There is at least two other DF41's in batch 460. With regards to other major SNP's I know there is a M222 (thus DF23) awaiting DF41 results in batch 459 (Kelly)

The "Irish C" is what they labeled it in the L21 WTY Project.  I have no idea why they labeled it as such but I occasionally used it when referring to 1426.  I was never sure if I should use Mike's "1426" label or WTY's "Irish C" label.  Eventually Mike combined the two.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 11:17:03 PM by McCown » Logged

DF41+
rms2
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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 05:35:16 PM »

I created an R-DF41 category at the R-L21 Plus Project today. There are three guys in it thus far. Please let me know if I have missed anyone who has tested DF41+.

It's on page 4 of the Y-DNA Results pages here.
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 07:00:28 AM »

There are four men in the R-DF41 category as of this morning.
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OConnor
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 07:09:02 AM »

do you think it's a shot for us to test for DF-41 ?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 07:11:24 AM »

do you think it's a shot for us to test for DF-41 ?

It is worth a try, yes.

Take a look at that category and see what you think of the haplotypes there. I haven't had time to really check them out, but I doubt if they are close to mine.

Anyway, three of the four men in that category so far are Irish (and the other might be), so that is one factor in your favor.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 07:12:11 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 07:15:20 AM »

do you think it's a shot for us to test for DF-41 ?

It is worth a try, yes.

Take a look at that category and see what you think of the haplotypes there. I haven't had time to really check them out, but I doubt if they are close to mine.

Anyway, three of the four men in that category so far are Irish (and the other might be), so that is one factor in your favor.

I take that back. One of them, McCown, is a Scot, but, well, you know.
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OConnor
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 07:32:29 AM »

I'll hold off for now. I don't see much in common between mine and their' sequences.

thanks
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


samIsaack
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 10:47:06 AM »

BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this. What is an "Irish C" guy?  One of the guys in the variety above calls himself an Irish C guy and I thought it was an STR signature so I added "C" to 1426. However, I can't find references anywhere to Irish STR signature/cluster so I may be just dreaming something.

Mike I could be wrong on here but perhaps "Irish C" = Irish Sea, given that my fellow DF41 appears to have ancestry in and around Galloway (Land of the Gall-Ghaeil).

Thanks for creating the thread. There is at least two other DF41's in batch 460. With regards to other major SNP's I know there is a M222 (thus DF23) awaiting DF41 results in batch 459 (Kelly)

Perhaps he is apart of the group that Mike Whalen (dna-forums) was calling "Lost Irish C* boys"? In reference to the days before L21 was discovered and your group was known as R1b1c*. Just an observation.
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Dubhthach
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2012, 04:21:09 PM »

Just an update we got confirmation that DF23+/M222+ is DF41-. I'm in the process of sponsoring the following to test so as to confirm status
  • L144
  • L371
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McCown
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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2012, 09:44:21 AM »

Anyway, three of the four men in that category so far are Irish (and the other might be), so that is one factor in your favor.

The 1426ers ( i.e. the non-Duffys ) are mostly Scotch-Irish( Ulster Scots ).

I present my case for this in reply#10 above.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 09:49:59 AM by McCown » Logged

DF41+
NealtheRed
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« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2012, 10:01:40 AM »

Just an update we got confirmation that DF23+/M222+ is DF41-. I'm in the process of sponsoring the following to test so as to confirm status
  • L144
  • L371

Do you guys suggest any Irish Sea folk test for it to determine DF41's relationship to Z255, or are we all most likely negative for DF41?
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Dubhthach
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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2012, 01:15:43 PM »

Just an update we got confirmation that DF23+/M222+ is DF41-. I'm in the process of sponsoring the following to test so as to confirm status
  • L144
  • L371

Do you guys suggest any Irish Sea folk test for it to determine DF41's relationship to Z255, or are we all most likely negative for DF41?

Neal,

We have a Z255+/L159.2+ testing at the moment for DF41. All of the current ISOGG SNP's are in process of been tested as well as L744 and L555. This should ensure DF41 been eligible for qualification for the ISOGG tree by hopefully the middle/end of June.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2012, 02:01:54 PM »

Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2012, 05:43:07 PM »

Here's list of people from different L21 SNP's who are awaiting a DF41 result:

DF21+: 155347
L371+:  36039
L144+:  83115
Z253+:  205635
Z255+: 166226
L96+:   176268
L744+: 52758
L555+: 33141

To follow up on this we have confirmation today that following are DF41-
L371+
L144+
Z253+
Z255+
L96+
L555+

Once I get the results for L744 and DF21 I'll be submitting DF41 for inclusion in ISOGG tree. The other result today is that DF41+ is confirmed as DF49-
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 05:55:22 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
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