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Author Topic: R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!  (Read 41256 times)
rms2
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« Reply #150 on: September 18, 2012, 08:24:18 PM »

What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 08:24:42 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #151 on: September 18, 2012, 08:28:04 PM »

What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.

It looks like they do match.

I'll try to contact M. Rioux. If my efforts don't work, I'll ask Bernard to contact him.
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #152 on: September 18, 2012, 11:21:28 PM »

Kit 240201 (Walker) DF41+ L746- L745- L744- L564- L563-
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rms2
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« Reply #153 on: September 19, 2012, 04:02:23 AM »

Kit 240201 (Walker) DF41+ L746- L745- L744- L564- L563-

Congratulations!

We pretty much knew it was coming, but it's good to have the results.
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rms2
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« Reply #154 on: September 19, 2012, 04:38:28 AM »

What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.

It looks like they do match.

I'll try to contact M. Rioux. If my efforts don't work, I'll ask Bernard to contact him.

225950 has ordered DF41.

He is a French Canadian of Breton ancestry, so this could be interesting.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #155 on: September 19, 2012, 02:42:35 PM »

What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.

It looks like they do match.

I'll try to contact M. Rioux. If my efforts don't work, I'll ask Bernard to contact him.

225950 has ordered DF41.

He is a French Canadian of Breton ancestry, so this could be interesting.

Yes, that could be quite interesting, since we know what the Stewarts think.  Should we speculate on this?  You got it right on the L459+ L21- being overturned so I'm behind.  On this one, because of GD's of 6 to 8 with the L744+ Stewarts and the common subset of off-modals, I'm betting DF41+.  Perhaps the real challenge would be to bet L744+ or -.  Well, that's going quite a ways out on the limb.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 02:43:12 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #156 on: September 19, 2012, 02:49:36 PM »

What do you think about this guy in the French Heritage Project?
f58641 Rioux, b. Unknown Origin

He's got reasonable GD's L744 Stuarts and some matching markers, but not all the key ones.


Is he a match for kit 225950, another Rioux? This second Rioux has tested L21+ and is in the Bretagne Project. He has only 37 markers, but he has a couple of Stewarts at a gd of 3 away. One of his matches is a Rioux, so maybe 58641 and 225950 are relatives.

225950 I can get hold of.

It looks like they do match.

I'll try to contact M. Rioux. If my efforts don't work, I'll ask Bernard to contact him.

225950 has ordered DF41.

He is a French Canadian of Breton ancestry, so this could be interesting.

Yes, that could be quite interesting, since we know what the Stewarts think.  Should we speculate on this?  You got it right on the L459+ L21- being overturned so I'm behind.  On this one, because of GD's of 6 to 8 with the L744+ Stewarts and the common subset of off-modals, I'm betting DF41+.  Perhaps the real challenge would be to bet L744+ or -.  Well, that's going quite a ways out on the limb.

I agree. I'm thinking the Stewart tradition of Breton ancestry is true, and some Bretons and perhaps some Normans and other NW French will turn up who are DF41+. The real question for debate will be which came first, the British chicken or the Breton egg?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 02:50:21 PM by rms2 » Logged

Dubhthach
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« Reply #157 on: September 19, 2012, 04:03:44 PM »

First things first hopefully we get a DF41+ result, we all saw what happened with Erwin who appeared close on GD to Stewarts and ended up DF41-.

Obviously if he is DF41+ I'd recommend testing both L744 and L746, we don't know after all which one came first, obviously all of the "Stewart cluster" so tested are L744+/L746+ (and all but one was L745+). It would be nice if we could spilt L744 and L746. Should be interesting.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #158 on: September 19, 2012, 08:42:31 PM »

That's a good point. We don't have any continental DF41+ yet.

I'm guessing we will soon, but I could be wrong.

Right now, I'd like to see some more positive results, period. It isn't looking like DF41 will be one of the bigger subclades.
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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #159 on: September 19, 2012, 09:08:33 PM »

ordered DF41today, and got it in on time to be batched....
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rms2
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« Reply #160 on: September 20, 2012, 04:01:10 AM »

ordered DF41today, and got it in on time to be batched....

I hope you get a positive result in about a week. We could use some new recruits.
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avalon
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« Reply #161 on: September 20, 2012, 06:15:53 AM »

I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.

Mkk

Are you sure that the POBI project are claiming that R1b dates back to the ice age, in line with Oppenheimer?


No, I just suggested it based upon the rather wide reportage of Oppenheimer, Sykes et. al a few years ago. It entered popular culture with National Geographic, the aforementioned books of Oppenheimer et. al, the spread of their theories into Britain's newspapers, the dissemination of their theories in programs such as "blood of the Irish" and so on.

I presume their paper will include suggestions on the origins of the various clusters they've found, so as I said they may explain their reasoning for a Paleolithic origin of  western Britain.

But I don't think the POBI project are arguing for a Paleolithic origin of Western Britain, at least I haven't read it in any of their papers or newsletters.

I know the media still push this view but that is a hangover from Oppenheimer's book, 2006.
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Mkk
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« Reply #162 on: September 20, 2012, 10:18:47 AM »

I read that article, it seems to be back when the whole "ice age hunter gatherer2 Britsh thing was popular:

Mr Moffat said: “Everybody wants to be a Viking, but it doesn’t usually work out that way. We all came here after the last ice age and perhaps because it is impossible to go further north-west, Scotland has been the final destination for many journeys over 11,000 years.


Yes, that was one of the things I had in mind when I mentioned sifting through the rubbish in that article. It's a current article, but the R1b-Caveman zombie is hard to kill.


Yep. It's reappeared in the media with the results of the People of the British isles. Although their work is autosomal and you can't really work out when a population arrived in a area with that, they've still claimed that the ancestry of the Welsh is ancient and dates back to the end of the last ice age. I don't know for sure, but I imagine these suggestions are based upon the works of Oppenheimer et. al. on R1b a few years back.

Maybe they will explain their reasoning when the paper comes out.

The again I've noticed the media is always pretty sensational about genetic studies, often misinterpreting their main conclusions.

Mkk

Are you sure that the POBI project are claiming that R1b dates back to the ice age, in line with Oppenheimer?


No, I just suggested it based upon the rather wide reportage of Oppenheimer, Sykes et. al a few years ago. It entered popular culture with National Geographic, the aforementioned books of Oppenheimer et. al, the spread of their theories into Britain's newspapers, the dissemination of their theories in programs such as "blood of the Irish" and so on.

I presume their paper will include suggestions on the origins of the various clusters they've found, so as I said they may explain their reasoning for a Paleolithic origin of  western Britain.

But I don't think the POBI project are arguing for a Paleolithic origin of Western Britain, at least I haven't read it in any of their papers or newsletters.

I know the media still push this view but that is a hangover from Oppenheimer's book, 2006.
The media quoted one of the researchers as saying that the shared ancestry of Western Britons and northwest French dates back to peoples moving north after the last ice age.

Then again, this may be the opinion just of that cu-author, and not of the group as a whole.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #163 on: September 21, 2012, 04:49:47 PM »

Here's another guy to check out from the Turner project:

219429   Austin H. Turner, b1818 GA d 1888 AL

He is a GD=10 at 67 with some Stuart/Stewart L744+ guys and also with two Z253+ guys so he could be either DF41 or Z253..


or neither for that matter.
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rms2
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« Reply #164 on: September 22, 2012, 04:43:57 AM »

There are still 27 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results, but none in Pending Shipment to Lab. I was hoping for some results this morning, but it looks like FTDNA was doing 111-marker upgrades, because that is all that came in last night.

There are a couple of men almost certain to be DF41+ awaiting their results, like Miller, kit 96950, who is a fairly close match to McBirnie, Morrison, and Walker. There is Self, kit 53479, as well, who is solidly in my cluster and who matches Cooper 66/67. He'll be DF41+.

An interesting one for me is the French Hebert, kit 4568, whose haplotype is on the outskirts of my own cluster, 41-1123.

Hamon, kit 84034, is French and was in the DF41 section of Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree. That's no guarantee, of course, since a number of those in that section have already tested DF41-.

Two Bretons are awaiting DF41 results: Rioux, kit 225950, and Le Guennec, kit N98545.

The German Kepler, kit 88876, is also awaiting DF41 results, and he was in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree.
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #165 on: September 22, 2012, 06:09:38 AM »

There are still 27 DF41 tests in Pending Lab Results, but none in Pending Shipment to Lab. I was hoping for some results this morning, but it looks like FTDNA was doing 111-marker upgrades, because that is all that came in last night.

There are a couple of men almost certain to be DF41+ awaiting their results, like Miller, kit 96950, who is a fairly close match to McBirnie, Morrison, and Walker. There is Self, kit 53479, as well, who is solidly in my cluster and who matches Cooper 66/67. He'll be DF41+.

An interesting one for me is the French Hebert, kit 4568, whose haplotype is on the outskirts of my own cluster, 41-1123.

Hamon, kit 84034, is French and was in the DF41 section of Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree. That's no guarantee, of course, since a number of those in that section have already tested DF41-.

Two Bretons are awaiting DF41 results: Rioux, kit 225950, and Le Guennec, kit N98545.

The German Kepler, kit 88876, is also awaiting DF41 results, and he was in the DF41 section of Alex Williamson's Neighbor-Joining tree.

Also posted to R-L21 Project's Yahoo list:

The July, 2012 Analys of DF41 at http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_DF41.html
shows fingerprints for DF41-M and DF41-D as well as the DF41-M signature from Mike's 41-1426C.

Does anybody know if any additional fingerprints or signatures have been developed?

I ask because over 25% of the non-L744/746/745 kits that are DF41+ in the L21 Plus and DF41 & subclades projects fail to match more than 50% of any of those fingerprints and signature. They are:

59080   Stevens
47694   MacMillan
163684   Webb
57563   Cooper
35212   Creer (WTY)
92380   Hall

This seems like an unusually high proportion of Outliers to newbie me, and it may lead to many DF41+ candidates going untested. An additional fingerprint, if possible, could solve that while reducing expenditures on "blind" testing.
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rms2
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« Reply #166 on: September 22, 2012, 06:21:26 AM »

I don't think that is unusual for a recently discovered SNP like DF41. Cooper, Webb, and I all belong to the same haplotype cluster, which Mike calls 41-1123.

There have been a fair amount of DF41 tests lately, and by far most of the results have been negative.

It doesn't look like DF41 is going to be one of the more populous clades, probably for some reason like this. ;-)
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #167 on: September 22, 2012, 06:36:27 AM »

Is there a fingerprint/signature for Mike's 41-1123
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k.o.gran
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« Reply #168 on: September 22, 2012, 07:04:38 AM »

Hi Larry.

I replied on the Yahoo list. Here is what I replied:

Please have a look in Mike's spreadsheet. I suggest you filter by variety and
include those that start with "41-".

You will see that Stevens, Webb and Cooper are in variety 41-1123. Creer and
Hall are in variety 41-1411. The markers for these varieties are explained in
the clades tab of the same spreadsheet.

Hope this helps.

-Kai
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #169 on: September 22, 2012, 07:10:10 AM »

I have 22 Y67 GD 7 or less matches including myself. I have the STR values for 16 of them who are all signature matches for DF41-M/41-1426C, including all 4 who are GD7. We span 8 surnames. Too bad FTDNA's matches table at Y67 won't go beyond GD7, or I am sure there would be more

I have contacted over half of them, so some may be in the pending orders. I'll wait for the dust to settle a bit and then contact/recontact all of them when I can wordsmith a persuasive argument to get them to test.

So, hopefully DF41 will be bigger than our first glimpse is indicating. }:>))

By the way, you are our co-admin Richard Stevens aren't you? I haven't figured out all of the handles on this list yet.
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #170 on: September 22, 2012, 07:19:16 AM »

Hi Larry.

I replied on the Yahoo list. Here is what I replied:

Please have a look in Mike's spreadsheet. I suggest you filter by variety and
include those that start with "41-".

You will see that Stevens, Webb and Cooper are in variety 41-1123. Creer and
Hall are in variety 41-1411. The markers for these varieties are explained in
the clades tab of the same spreadsheet.

Hope this helps.

-Kai

Hi Kai,

I assume that you refer to Mike's spreadsheet that he posted an update to yesterday?

If so, I have to say Gaaaaaaaaah, not because it isn't a great tool, but because I have macular degenerating so have to enlarge it. Then when I finally get to what I'm looking for, I have forgotten what the fields were. At 72 I'm not getting younger fast enough to keep up with the rest of the world. {:>((

Larry
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k.o.gran
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« Reply #171 on: September 22, 2012, 07:39:21 AM »

Hi Larry,

No worries, I'll write the signatures here.

The signature for 41-1411 is: 594=11 437=14 534=14
And for 41-1123: 390=23 385=11,11 447<=24 449<=28 464b=16 534<=14 413a<=22 (458=16 439<=11 )

If I remember correctly, markers is paranthesis are often present in the people in the variety, but not necessarily. :-)

-Kai
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Larry Walker
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« Reply #172 on: September 22, 2012, 08:21:45 AM »

Thanks Kai, that answered my question.
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rms2
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« Reply #173 on: September 22, 2012, 05:52:46 PM »

Thanks for answering, Kai. I got off the computer after that last post above.

@Larry

Yeah, I am the R-DF41 and Subclades Co-admin, but I promised Paul I wouldn't meddle too much in the running of that project. So, he does all the arranging and categorizing for the project. I just help out as needed.
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rms2
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« Reply #174 on: September 22, 2012, 09:51:05 PM »

Does Alex Williamson plan on doing an updated Neighbor-Joining tree anytime soon? I would be curious to see the changes to the DF41 section due to recent test results.
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