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Author Topic: Isn't E Really Eurasian in Origin?  (Read 1830 times)
rms2
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« on: April 14, 2012, 12:03:07 PM »

I haven't really studied y haplogroup E, but since D and E stem from a common ancestor (correct me, please, if I am wrong), doesn't it seem likely that E probably originated somewhere in Eurasia and migrated into Africa, since D is very obviously NOT found in Africa and is, in fact, only found pretty far east in Asia?

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2012, 02:09:53 PM »

Rich, I wrote this when the African origin of hg. E was a dogma. Italy had very ancient haplotypes which couldn’t be derived from elsewhere, and this was confirmed by Cruciani when found some very early E in Sardinia, but we couldn’t speak of this because was racist to say this. Now many doubt also that homo sapiens sapiens was born in Africa and also that hg. A is the ancestral of human kind. I said that it could belong to an African hominid who mixed with some homo sapiens sapiens coming from Eurasia.   
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2012, 07:59:15 PM »

Rich, I wrote this when the African origin of hg. E was a dogma. Italy had very ancient haplotypes which couldn’t be derived from elsewhere, and this was confirmed by Cruciani when found some very early E in Sardinia, but we couldn’t speak of this because was racist to say this. Now many doubt also that homo sapiens sapiens was born in Africa and also that hg. A is the ancestral of human kind. I said that it could belong to an African hominid who mixed with some homo sapiens sapiens coming from Eurasia.   

Thanks, Gioiello. I have always doubted the "out of Africa" thing.

I haven't really done much thinking about E, but I always thought it was kind of weird that C and D are so far east while E is thought of as "African". That seemed an unlikely thing to me.

So, I agree with you that E was probably originally an outsider in Africa, kind of like R-V88.

Of course, I guess it wouldn't be politically correct to suggest that E1b1a men of Subsaharan African ancestry have male ancestors who came from Eurasia!

I can imagine how that would go over here in the USA. Not well.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 08:01:14 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2012, 01:08:46 AM »

I can imagine how that would go over here in the USA. Not well.
But we all have accepted for many years to be Africans when the “Out of Africa Theory” arose and I don’t understand why Africans shouldn’t accept to be Eurasians, at least in part, because nobody, or a few, deny so far the origin of the mtDNA from Africa from L3. Perhaps only German Dziebel supports an origin elsewhere also of the mitochondrion. You know I have had some troubles in supporting the origin of Jews, Ashkenazim above all, elsewhere from Ancient Palestine.
You can read some recent vicissitudes of mine above on “General discussion”, but fortunately there I have had the support of Gail Tonnesen and, sincerely, also Roy King, who as you know isn’t a fanatic but a great Geneticist, has been very reasonable and respectful. The true problem is that we all are searching for truth, whichever it is, and also about our origin we shall be open minded.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2012, 06:57:22 AM »

Political correctness is the great contemporary curse that interferes with the quest for truth because it seeks to impose restrictions on free discussion. There are all sorts of examples, but in the genetic field, witness the consternation over the recent discovery that Tutankhamen might have been R1b of some kind. That might explain why the Egyptians haven't exactly been eager to publish the findings.

I used to think E was probably African in origin, because of its distribution, but that is because I hadn't given it much thought; even then I thought its position relative to C and D was very strange, however.
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palamede
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2012, 09:31:53 AM »

Haplogroup DE* has been found in Nigeria, Guinea and Thibet . Presumptionsl in Arabic penisula and Near East.

Interesting posts for  Y-E1b1b and Mt-L3 in
http://ethiohelix.blogspot.fr/search?updated-max=2012-01-24T14:47:00-05:00&max-results=20&start=8&by-date=false

I don't find eurasian origin certain, we have no old clades of E in Eurasia.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 05:54:15 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
rms2
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 08:01:37 AM »

Haplogroup DE* has been found in Nigeria, Guinea and Thibet . Presumptionsl in Arabic penisula and Near East.

Interesting posts for  Y-E1b1b and Mt-E3 in
http://ethiohelix.blogspot.fr/search?updated-max=2012-01-24T14:47:00-05:00&max-results=20&start=8&by-date=false

I don't find eurasian origin certain, we have no old clades of E in Eurasia.

Can you provide a link or something that says something about DE* being found in the places you mentioned?

Sorry, but I'm not interested enough to wade through all the stuff at "Ethio Helix" looking for it.

Besides, is it likely that actual DE* really exists among modern men? Isn't it more likely that researchers just weren't able to find the SNPs downstream of DE those supposed "DE*" gentlemen carry?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 08:06:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

palamede
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 12:07:25 PM »


Can you provide a link or something that says something about DE* being found in the places you mentioned?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE_(Y-DNA)
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Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
rms2
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 08:43:23 PM »

Thanks.

This part of the article was interesting.

Quote

. . . the study's authors caution that "the apparently paraphyletic status of this haplogroup, and hence the conclusions of nested cladistic analysis, are also likely to be illusory" . . .

I also gather from that article that the experts are still not sure where DE first arose.
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A.D.
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2012, 11:18:49 AM »

There was a program 'First out of Africa' about the Andaman people. one of the scientists, an Indian I believe, claimed to have found markers among the males to over 1,000,000 years old and from Asia. I have no more info but it might be worth following up on. Way above my head. 
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