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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2012, 06:57:53 PM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)

From what I recall, there are Celtic place names in the western Iberian Basque Country and there is a lack of Basque place names there as well. Can someone confirm?

I recall reading that rivernames (usually the oldest strata in any area) are IE in the Basque areas, suggesting they were late arrivals. 
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IALEM
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2012, 05:15:22 AM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)

From what I recall, there are Celtic place names in the western Iberian Basque Country and there is a lack of Basque place names there as well. Can someone confirm?

I recall reading that rivernames (usually the oldest strata in any area) are IE in the Basque areas, suggesting they were late arrivals. 
They are in the S and SW of the present Basque Country, and it lends support to the late Vasconization theory of that area, that I particularly think is clearly correct.
However L-21 is present also in the other regions of the Basque Country that don´t have that Celtic toponimic substratum,. IMO L-21 moved with Basques when they arrived to the previously Celtic region.
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2012, 07:02:18 AM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)

From what I recall, there are Celtic place names in the western Iberian Basque Country and there is a lack of Basque place names there as well. Can someone confirm?

I recall reading that rivernames (usually the oldest strata in any area) are IE in the Basque areas, suggesting they were late arrivals. 
They are in the S and SW of the present Basque Country, and it lends support to the late Vasconization theory of that area, that I particularly think is clearly correct.
However L-21 is present also in the other regions of the Basque Country that don´t have that Celtic toponimic substratum,. IMO L-21 moved with Basques when they arrived to the previously Celtic region.


I am not trying to argue with you in what follows; I just want to get your sense of things.

It is pretty clear that in NW Europe L21 has a fairly close historical association with Celtic-speaking peoples, a closer association than it does with the Basques, although, obviously, we know now it has a connection to the Basques, as well.

What do you think happened? Was there once a much wider Vasconic-speaking region that extended up into NW France and the British Isles that later became Celtic via cultural and trade contacts? Or was L21 introduced into the Vasconic population via contacts with Celts?

I lean toward the latter explanation, but I am open to either or even to some third, fourth or subsequent explanation: whatever is right.
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OConnor
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2012, 07:39:44 AM »

I suspect L21 has been layered in N/W Europe. Arriving in some places mutiple times.

Sorting it out must be nothing short of a nightmare.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 07:44:37 AM by OConnor » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2012, 09:05:43 AM »

I suspect L21 has been layered in N/W Europe. Arriving in some places mutiple times.

Sorting it out must be nothing short of a nightmare.

Yes, we have to recognize that there is a lot of time in prehistory when we really don't know that well what happened.... at least in terms of who was who?

I generally like the concept of accepting the simplest, most direct explanations, which is essentially "Occam's razor."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

However, there is no simple, one answer that fits.  Even though people look at Ireland Y-DNA wise and see it as almost a monolith of L21, if you look at the history and the prehistory, there were myriad of expansions, migrations, declines, etc. that involved the continent and Scandinavia. 

The days of single dimensional analysis of L21, U106, U152 and P312* are over.  Those are just snapshot pictures when in reality we have multi-cinema group of videos running full time all the time.  Oh yes, all of the shows are real multi-media with full color, surround sound and 3D.
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2012, 10:15:40 AM »




What do you think happened? Was there once a much wider Vasconic-speaking region that extended up into NW France and the British Isles that later became Celtic via cultural and trade contacts? Or was L21 introduced into the Vasconic population via contacts with Celts?

I lean toward the latter explanation, but I am open to either or even to some third, fourth or subsequent explanation: whatever is right.
There is very little evidence for Vasconic, only indirect inference. Aquitanian and Iberian dialects are related so they descend from a common language that probably extended beyond those borders, how far? no idea. There were for sure othe pre IE languages from different families in Western Europe that disapeared without leaving trace.
I think the explanation about L-21 among Basques is related to chronology, if L-21 is so late as some suggest then I would say your explanation is probably the right one.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2012, 05:21:37 PM »

As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 05:24:09 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2012, 07:47:01 PM »

That is curious.

I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is interesting.
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« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2012, 01:16:57 AM »

In 2007, a Celtic site is excavated in Aquitaine.
 It is one of the biggest of Europe

http://www.inrap.fr/archeologie-preventive/Decouvrir/Audiovisuels/Reportages_videos/p-2172-Un_village_gaulois_au_nord_de_l_Aquitaine.htm

 I try to translate what the archaeologist Alain Duval said in this video:

 This is one of the largest site of Celtic archeology in Europe. This is very surprising, because we are in Aquitaine and Aquitaine, they are not Celts. But here, in this case, it was one of the greatest Celtic site, with absolutely characteristics  objects. If we would have discovered this site in Hungary or Bohemia, we would not have been surprised
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 01:30:28 AM by jerome72 » Logged
razyn
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« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2012, 02:19:31 AM »

And here it is described in English, which I found helpful:

http://www.inrap.fr/preventive-archaeology/Events/Last-discoveries/p-2211-lg1-A-Gallic-village-in-northern-Aquitaine.htm
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« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2012, 02:38:55 AM »

Well, the site is located north of the Garonne and in the area of 3 well known Gallic tribes, the Bituriges, the Pétrucores and the Nitiobroges, so it is not that surporising, except for the size of the site.
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« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2012, 03:02:01 AM »

As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf


Alan,
We all know that Gerald of Wales, cousin of Henri II, and related to the Norman Invaders,  writings were propaganda used to justify the Cambro Norman invasion of Ireland. As described in footnotes 151, 152 and 153 Henry II, through his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, acquired the French Basque lands. This chapter is taken from Geoffrey of Monmouth and the Title, Chapte IX Of the Triple and new claim should give us a hint. The Basclenes are evidently The Basques, But this colony does not appear to be admitted by the Irish writers.
What is supported by the vast Corpus of Irish writings is the accounts In Chapter VI and VII, the Invasions of Heber and Herimon.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 03:11:57 AM by Heber » Logged

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ironroad41
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« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2012, 09:04:36 AM »

I suspect L21 has been layered in N/W Europe. Arriving in some places mutiple times.

Sorting it out must be nothing short of a nightmare.

Yes, we have to recognize that there is a lot of time in prehistory when we really don't know that well what happened.... at least in terms of who was who?

I generally like the concept of accepting the simplest, most direct explanations, which is essentially "Occam's razor."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

However, there is no simple, one answer that fits.  Even though people look at Ireland Y-DNA wise and see it as almost a monolith of L21, if you look at the history and the prehistory, there were myriad of expansions, migrations, declines, etc. that involved the continent and Scandinavia. 

The days of single dimensional analysis of L21, U106, U152 and P312* are over.  Those are just snapshot pictures when in reality we have multi-cinema group of videos running full time all the time.  Oh yes, all of the shows are real multi-media with full color, surround sound and 3D.

I agree with your comments and suggest that, as sentient beings, the movements were in response to Climate changes, food supply changes, trade, etc.   One question I would pose is was there a land bridge across the straits of Gibraltar and possibly from the area of Tripoli to Italy?  If so when was it erased. The existence of these land bridges would have facilitated north - south traffic between Europe and Africa and help us to explain some the population distributions we observe?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2012, 09:08:24 AM »

As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf


Alan,
We all know that Gerald of Wales, cousin of Henri II, and related to the Norman Invaders,  writings were propaganda used to justify the Cambro Norman invasion of Ireland. As described in footnotes 151, 152 and 153 Henry II, through his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, acquired the French Basque lands. This chapter is taken from Geoffrey of Monmouth and the Title, Chapte IX Of the Triple and new claim should give us a hint. The Basclenes are evidently The Basques, But this colony does not appear to be admitted by the Irish writers.
What is supported by the vast Corpus of Irish writings is the accounts In Chapter VI and VII, the Invasions of Heber and Herimon.

Oh I am well aware of that background to Gerald of Wales and it needs read with full awareness of the motives and propoganda issue and part of that is that England ruled Aquitaine.  In fact the section that mentions the Basques is up front about being a plea to claim Anglo-Norman authority over the Irish.  However, as long as one is very aware of that then its still of interest in its incidental detail.  

Its just an interesting and perhaps politically motivated twist puts on the Milesian/Book of Invasion myth but the latter is a pack of fabrication anyway based on classical and even biblican sources put together by monks and as such is not really original Irish tradition of origins.  It clearly did later become part of traditions spread by the learned class but no credible Celtic scholars see it as genuine native tradition on the whole except a small element of it.  The amount of credibility it is given on the internet is madness in my opinion, no better (and indeed very similar) to the idea that Brutus founded the Britain.  People are wasting their time trying to get much out of the Book of Invasions type traditions.  That is not to say that there could not have been links with Iberia but the book of invasions is just Medieval scholarly guessology often based on incorrect connecting of placenames and contains very little native tradition.  I used to be very much into stuff like that but it became clear (disappointingly at first) that scholars think its 90% classical fabrication and 10% native traditions (basically confined to a couple of tribal names like Fir Domnainn/Bold/Gallion etc which are probably the only genuine remnants of native tradition in the scheme.  All the Parthalon, Nemed, Tuatha de Dannan and the Mil stuff has basically nothing to do with the settlement of Ireland.  The Tuatha de Dannan are clearly the story of the old gods of Ireland repackaged to make them palatable to Christian scholars as people.    It in itself is a propoganda piece.
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« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2012, 09:29:58 AM »

Another thing is the suggestion that L21 in the area is coastal, something I think favours the idea that it might be a remnant of non-Basque elements in the area.  I understand the Basques in Spain are though to have moved into the coastal area of the present Basque country of Spain fairly late and that the 3 coastal tribes in the coast of the later Spanish Basque area were probably Celtic.  
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 09:30:42 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2012, 10:31:21 AM »

As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf


Alan,
We all know that Gerald of Wales, cousin of Henri II, and related to the Norman Invaders,  writings were propaganda used to justify the Cambro Norman invasion of Ireland. As described in footnotes 151, 152 and 153 Henry II, through his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, acquired the French Basque lands. This chapter is taken from Geoffrey of Monmouth and the Title, Chapte IX Of the Triple and new claim should give us a hint. The Basclenes are evidently The Basques, But this colony does not appear to be admitted by the Irish writers.
What is supported by the vast Corpus of Irish writings is the accounts In Chapter VI and VII, the Invasions of Heber and Herimon.

Oh I am well aware of that background to Gerald of Wales and it needs read with full awareness of the motives and propoganda issue and part of that is that England ruled Aquitaine.  In fact the section that mentions the Basques is up front about being a plea to claim Anglo-Norman authority over the Irish.  However, as long as one is very aware of that then its still of interest in its incidental detail.  

Its just an interesting and perhaps politically motivated twist puts on the Milesian/Book of Invasion myth but the latter is a pack of fabrication anyway based on classical and even biblican sources put together by monks and as such is not really original Irish tradition of origins.  It clearly did later become part of traditions spread by the learned class but no credible Celtic scholars see it as genuine native tradition on the whole except a small element of it.  The amount of credibility it is given on the internet is madness in my opinion, no better (and indeed very similar) to the idea that Brutus founded the Britain.  People are wasting their time trying to get much out of the Book of Invasions type traditions.  That is not to say that there could not have been links with Iberia but the book of invasions is just Medieval scholarly guessology often based on incorrect connecting of placenames and contains very little native tradition.  I used to be very much into stuff like that but it became clear (disappointingly at first) that scholars think its 90% classical fabrication and 10% native traditions (basically confined to a couple of tribal names like Fir Domnainn/Bold/Gallion etc which are probably the only genuine remnants of native tradition in the scheme.  All the Parthalon, Nemed, Tuatha de Dannan and the Mil stuff has basically nothing to do with the settlement of Ireland.  The Tuatha de Dannan are clearly the story of the old gods of Ireland repackaged to make them palatable to Christian scholars as people.    It in itself is a propoganda piece.

I tend to agree that this is just the nature of the early so-called historians. I don't think we should totally  what Gerald of Wales has written any more than what Bede has written, and both are probably several steps above the Book of Invasions.

I've read Gerald of Wales "Description of Wales".  Most of it is simply a reporting of details about the country and the people. This is good information. I would not deny that he provided some propaganda along with the reporting.  We just have to try to separate things out, not outright dismiss them.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 10:32:08 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2012, 11:21:54 AM »

Of course, what makes what Gerald had to say about the "Basclenses" interesting is the very topic of this thread, i.e., the finding by Begoña Martinez-Cruz et al of higher levels of L21 among the Basques than I think all of us except maybe Ialem had suspected.

Also interesting is Gerald's description of the Irish as a primarily pastoral people, which reminded me of Caesar's comments about the tribes of the British interior in his day, who, according to him, lived off "milk and flesh" and dressed in animal skins.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 11:22:25 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2012, 12:36:22 PM »


Another thing is the suggestion that L21 in the area is coastal, something I think favours the idea that it might be a remnant of non-Basque elements in the area.  I understand the Basques in Spain are though to have moved into the coastal area of the present Basque country of Spain fairly late and that the 3 coastal tribes in the coast of the later Spanish Basque area were probably Celtic. 

There isn't any conclusive proof that the Varduli were Celtic-speaking, you could make the case for the Autrigones who had a lot of Celtic-place names in their territory. The main issue is that some Roman historians place the Varduli as a single tribe living between the Cantabri and the Vascones, were others put them between the Caristii and the Vascones. The known names that are located in modern day Guipuzcoan-territory that was inhabited by Varduli were the port of Menosca(Guetaria-Zarautz). There are seven Castro-like structures found in Guipuzcoa: two in Tolosa(Castro de Inchur, Castro de Murumendi), one in Andoain(Castro de Buruntza), one in Anoeta (Castro de Basagain), one in Aspeitia (Castro de Muñoandi)  , one in Mondragon(Castro de Murugain), and one in Elgoibar(Castro de Muru). This is what is often used as the evidence of a possible Celtic-link in the place. However, Cantabria has 47 Castro structures, so either Cantabria was a whole lot more populated than Guipuzcoa at the time, or the vast majority of the people living in Guipuzcoa did not live in Castros, and possibly the few Castros were constructed by Celtic elites, and maybe the population inside the Castros was Celtic or at least indo-European speaking, but I think that the Celts weren’t very successful at establishing themselves in Guipuzcoa, and Eastern Bizkaia, this is probably why the language survived there.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 12:40:10 PM by JeanL » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2012, 04:27:57 PM »

Although I would be careful about equating a lack of Castros with a lack of Celts.  Perhaps the Celtic tribes in the area close to the border of France were more of an overspill from France than Celti-Iberian.  Maybe they were simply on the interface between the Celti-Iberian castro culture and the Gaulish Celtic culture.   To me the French-Spanish border looks like the south-western boundary of the elevated L21 zone and as has been pointed out it looks stronger on the coast rather than inland.  It looks to me like the south-west edge of what is essentially a clade that is strongest in the Atlantic half of France (and of course the isles).  So, it kind of looks like a border area for L21 and it of course has been a border area of sorts since prehistory.  It is probably in some ways best seen as the edge of Gaul or France rather than the east of Iberia. 
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« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2012, 07:10:55 AM »

As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales As I have posted before, in terms of Iberia it seems that the border area with France is much higher in L21 and hence more similar to Ireland and Atlantic Britain than other parts of Iberia appear to be.  I only recently noticed that Gerald of Wales who wrote the first detailed outsiders account of Ireland recounts the book of invasions traditions but interestingly he locates the link with the Irish in the Basque area on the Spanish-French border rather than with Galicia.  He notes that the Irish were Vascones who had tried to settle Britain but had been encourage to go and settled Ireland.  He also mentions that they came from Bayonne on the French-Spanish border.  

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf


Alan,
We all know that Gerald of Wales, cousin of Henri II, and related to the Norman Invaders,  writings were propaganda used to justify the Cambro Norman invasion of Ireland. As described in footnotes 151, 152 and 153 Henry II, through his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, acquired the French Basque lands. This chapter is taken from Geoffrey of Monmouth and the Title, Chapte IX Of the Triple and new claim should give us a hint. The Basclenes are evidently The Basques, But this colony does not appear to be admitted by the Irish writers.
What is supported by the vast Corpus of Irish writings is the accounts In Chapter VI and VII, the Invasions of Heber and Herimon.

Oh I am well aware of that background to Gerald of Wales and it needs read with full awareness of the motives and propoganda issue and part of that is that England ruled Aquitaine.  In fact the section that mentions the Basques is up front about being a plea to claim Anglo-Norman authority over the Irish.  However, as long as one is very aware of that then its still of interest in its incidental detail.  

Its just an interesting and perhaps politically motivated twist puts on the Milesian/Book of Invasion myth but the latter is a pack of fabrication anyway based on classical and even biblican sources put together by monks and as such is not really original Irish tradition of origins.  It clearly did later become part of traditions spread by the learned class but no credible Celtic scholars see it as genuine native tradition on the whole except a small element of it.  The amount of credibility it is given on the internet is madness in my opinion, no better (and indeed very similar) to the idea that Brutus founded the Britain.  People are wasting their time trying to get much out of the Book of Invasions type traditions.  That is not to say that there could not have been links with Iberia but the book of invasions is just Medieval scholarly guessology often based on incorrect connecting of placenames and contains very little native tradition.  I used to be very much into stuff like that but it became clear (disappointingly at first) that scholars think its 90% classical fabrication and 10% native traditions (basically confined to a couple of tribal names like Fir Domnainn/Bold/Gallion etc which are probably the only genuine remnants of native tradition in the scheme.  All the Parthalon, Nemed, Tuatha de Dannan and the Mil stuff has basically nothing to do with the settlement of Ireland.  The Tuatha de Dannan are clearly the story of the old gods of Ireland repackaged to make them palatable to Christian scholars as people.    It in itself is a propoganda piece.

I tend to agree that this is just the nature of the early so-called historians. I don't think we should totally  what Gerald of Wales has written any more than what Bede has written, and both are probably several steps above the Book of Invasions.

I've read Gerald of Wales "Description of Wales".  Most of it is simply a reporting of details about the country and the people. This is good information. I would not deny that he provided some propaganda along with the reporting.  We just have to try to separate things out, not outright dismiss them.



Well Gearld of Wales account of Ireland is specifically biased. If anything the work has been continuously attacked by Irish authors since the 14th century (beginning of Gaelic Revival). In general it portrays us Irish as been sub-human. It's basically racial-propaganda to justify conquest.
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« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2012, 09:08:12 PM »

I tend to agree that this is just the nature of the early so-called historians. I don't think we should totally  what Gerald of Wales has written any more than what Bede has written, and both are probably several steps above the Book of Invasions.

I've read Gerald of Wales "Description of Wales".  Most of it is simply a reporting of details about the country and the people. This is good information. I would not deny that he provided some propaganda along with the reporting.  We just have to try to separate things out, not outright dismiss them.

Well Gearld of Wales account of Ireland is specifically biased. If anything the work has been continuously attacked by Irish authors since the 14th century (beginning of Gaelic Revival). In general it portrays us Irish as been sub-human. It's basically racial-propaganda to justify conquest.

umm.. no wonder why he is attacked.   

He may be specifically biased, but he also provides a great deal of specific, good data in his writing.   I guess we just have to ferret out the data from the propaganda.

Bad news, maybe, I may be related.
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