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Author Topic: R-L21 in the Basque Country A Pretty Big Deal  (Read 3046 times)
rms2
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« on: April 13, 2012, 07:37:11 AM »

I was amazed (and am still amazed) by the surprisingly high frequency of L21 found in the Basque sample population of 558 men in the recent Begoña Martinez-Cruz et al (2012) study.


http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091.abstract

The overall frequency was just over 16%. In four sample locations, the frequency exceeded 20%. In one of those, it was in excess of 27%. That is significant.

It would be nice if we had the haplotypes, so we could get a variance calculation.

The following quote from JeanL sums the findings up very nicely.



There seems to be an East-West cline for R-L21 on the French Basque provinces based on the data from Martinez-Cruz. The same thing applies to R-M153, but in the opposite direction.
 
Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=44) Table S4

R-L21+     12/44 or 27.27%

Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=66) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/66 or 13.63%

Zuberoa SOU (n=53) Table S4

R-L21+     3/53 or 5.67%

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=53) Table S4

 R-L21+    11/53 or 20.75%

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=60) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/60 or 15%

North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     5/60 8.33%

Guipuscoa GUI (n=47) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/47 or 19.15%

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     13/57 or 22.81%

Alava, ALA (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     11/51 or 21.57%

Bizkaia BBA (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     7/57 or 12.28%

Western Bizkaia BOC(n=19) Table S4

R-L21+     2/19 or 10.53%

Maybe there is a link between R-L21 and the Atlantic Bronze Age after all.



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Jean M
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2012, 07:58:15 AM »

Certainly is important. I'm inclined to feel that it indicates considerable mixing between Aquitani and their Celtic speaking neighbours in Gaul in the pre-Roman period. The linguistic evidence indicates that Aquitanian was an ancestral form of Euskara. In other words the ancestors of the Basques lived in SW France and the Pyrenees. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 08:02:46 AM by Jean M » Logged
IALEM
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2012, 08:27:43 AM »

I was the first Basque to test L21+, back then I posted to the incredulity of many that there will be many more positives in the Basque Country because I could trace my male line back to the 14th century so any recent migration could be discarded (the ifrst thing I was told when I posted my result in the DNA forum is that I should have some Irish ancestry).
When I realised that L21+ was much higher among Basques than neighbouring Spanish populations but similar to that of Gascony I pointed that it was another argument in pro of the late Vaconization theory. However I wouldn´t point to mixing with their Celtic speaking neighbours in Gaul in the pre-Roman period since the Celtic speaking Western Iberia doesn´t show a high level og L21+
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2012, 08:36:00 AM »

@ Ialem - yes we must account for the east-west cline in Basque L21. Perhaps I should have said that the greater level of it in the east reflects the continuing contact (and opportunities for mixing) in France with Gaulish Celts for many centuries since the post-Roman period.  

I agree that the L21 in Basques supports the late Vasconization of the Spanish Basque Country theory.

 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 08:36:29 AM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2012, 08:43:25 PM »

I wrote Maciamo Hay of Eupedia last night and made him aware of the Begoña Martinez-Cruz study and asked him to update his L21 map. I just checked the Eupedia y-dna forum and found that he started a thread on the subject this morning and has in fact updated his map:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29

I don't post at Eupedia anymore because the R1a rah-rahs there drove me nuts, but Maciamo is a good guy, and his maps are nice.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 08:44:01 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2012, 08:53:32 PM »

I wrote Maciamo Hay of Eupedia last night and made him aware of the Begoña Martinez-Cruz study and asked him to update his L21 map. I just checked the Eupedia y-dna forum and found that he started a thread on the subject this morning and has in fact updated his map:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29

I don't post at Eupedia anymore because the R1a rah-rahs there drove me nuts, but Maciamo is a good guy, and his maps are nice.

Re that map, I get the feeling Maciamo has L21 kind of compartmentalized in the Basque country. I'm betting the area of high L21 frequency probably is more extensive and flows up into western France. In other words, that 10-15% shading should probably run all the way down western France to connect up with the shading in the Basque country. How far east it should go is another matter. If I get the chance this weekend, I'll recheck Busby to see if there is any reason to think that might not be true.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2012, 08:54:25 AM »

By the way, the Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age migrations across the Pyrenees were distinct in their funerary practices, with Tumulus being predominant in the west and cremation (Urnfields) in the east.
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2012, 12:07:51 PM »

By the way, the Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age migrations across the Pyrenees were distinct in their funerary practices, with Tumulus being predominant in the west and cremation (Urnfields) in the east.

That is interesting.

Those Urnfield folk tick me off, honestly - burning their dead! What were they thinking of?

Didn't they know we would want to find out about their dna someday? ;-)
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 02:26:11 PM »

I wrote Maciamo Hay of Eupedia last night and made him aware of the Begoña Martinez-Cruz study and asked him to update his L21 map. I just checked the Eupedia y-dna forum and found that he started a thread on the subject this morning and has in fact updated his map:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27452-Deep-Y-DNA-subclades-tested-in-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascony-%28including-R1b-subclades%29

I don't post at Eupedia anymore because the R1a rah-rahs there drove me nuts, but Maciamo is a good guy, and his maps are nice.

Re that map, I get the feeling Maciamo has L21 kind of compartmentalized in the Basque country. I'm betting the area of high L21 frequency probably is more extensive and flows up into western France. In other words, that 10-15% shading should probably run all the way down western France to connect up with the shading in the Basque country. How far east it should go is another matter. If I get the chance this weekend, I'll recheck Busby to see if there is any reason to think that might not be true.

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?

If anyone has any doubts about the vibrancy of Celtic traditions in these regions, I would recommend a visit to the "Festival Interceltique" of Lorient, a type of Celtic Woodstock.

"THE PIPERS are primed, the kilts and dancing shoes are packed, the hotels are filling and the stages are just about built. On Friday, the Breton port town of Lorient will transform itself once again into the heaving, thumping capital of pan-Celtic partying. On their way to the 40th instalment of the Inter-Celtic festival are 4,500 artists and 650,000 spectators from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, France, Spain and diasporic outposts around the world, multiplying the town’s population tenfold and burnishing the reputation of an event that proudly lays claim to being the biggest of its kind."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2010/0804/1224276141895.html

http://www.festival-interceltique.com/

http://www.festival-interceltique.com/festival/nations-celtes.cfm

« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 04:19:20 PM by Heber » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2012, 07:03:04 PM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2012, 07:37:02 PM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?

I know that many descendants of Acadian pioneers are L21, and whose ancestors were from the Poitou-Charentes region of France.
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 05:09:47 PM »


It would be nice if we had the haplotypes, so we could get a variance calculation.


Yes, is there any way that the authors could make the STRs available?  I would be particularly interested in those of SRY2627 samples in France.
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 06:58:05 PM »


It would be nice if we had the haplotypes, so we could get a variance calculation.


Yes, is there any way that the authors could make the STRs available?  I would be particularly interested in those of SRY2627 samples in France.

They may be in the study, but it's one of those pay-to-read studies, so I haven't read the whole thing.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 07:43:38 PM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


I thought the finding was that it was (in Spanish terms) only high in the Pyrenees area and fell of to very little even when you moved along the north coast to next door Cantabria.  Myres actually found Cantabria to be the highest L21 area he tested in Iberia (he did not test the Pyrenean areas) and the rest of Iberia to be really lacking in it.  All this adds up to the apparent picture that L21 is very rare in Iberia except in the Pyrenees next to France.  However, I would admit that this needs confirmed and I have never seen similar sampling of interesting places like Asturias and Galicia. 

I think modern national boundaries are confusing this.  I see the L21-rich area in the Spanish Pyrenees simply a continuity of this on the French side, and basically should be seen as the fringe of the raised L21 areas in Atlantic and Pyrenean France rather than as the eastern fringe of Spain.  If you look at the Pyrenees more as the edge of France.Gaul then L21 rising in the mountains of the west and the French Atlantic coasts is like an echo of what we see in the isles.  L21 seems to survive best a little off the beaten track of the main path of movements form the east.  So, I do get the feeling that in some areas it was 'first in' of the P312 clades and was diluted from the east.  
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 07:48:01 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 07:55:18 PM »

Alan,

Doesn't that last bit you wrote seem to fit rather well with Cunliffe's old idea of the Atlantic Bronze Age trading and cultural network and, by extension, the Maritime Bell Beaker folk (if there were such people and MBB wasn't just pots, arrowheads and wristguards)?

I get the feeling a more thorough study of Spain would show a much smoother transition in L21 frequency from NW Spain into western France.
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2012, 08:16:30 PM »

Alan,

Doesn't that last bit you wrote seem to fit rather well with Cunliffe's old idea of the Atlantic Bronze Age trading and cultural network and, by extension, the Maritime Bell Beaker folk (if there were such people and MBB wasn't just pots, arrowheads and wristguards)?

I get the feeling a more thorough study of Spain would show a much smoother transition in L21 frequency from NW Spain into western France.

Rich

One thing I notice is that people tend to talk about Maritime Beakers and the Atlantic Bronze Age as if they were part of a continuoum.  However, Maritime beakers were likely invented around 2700BC and were done a few 100 years later while the Atlantic Bronze age commenced about 1300BC.  They were two different phases with a gap of at least 1000 years between.  In between  (in that gap) Atlantic Iberia was more closely connected to the west Med. groups as far as Italy.  So, they are very distinct phases.

As for L21 in Iberia, I think its Pyrenean concentration makes it a poor match for the Atlantic Bronze Age which was focussed on western Iberia.  It is a reasonably good match for the French and isles part of the network but so far (and I realise this needs confirmed) it is not a good match in Iberia.  I was somewhat amazed by the huge drop-off immediately west of the Basque area along the north coast in Cantabria, especially as Myres found the latter to be the peak of the (admittedly patchy) sampling of Iberia.  I recall Myres found a slight increase in L21 in Portugal too but it was well behind Cantabria (Santander).
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2012, 09:18:38 PM »

Myres actually found Cantabria to be the highest L21 area he tested in Iberia (he did not test the Pyrenean areas) and the rest of Iberia to be really lacking in it.

Isn't Natalie M. Myres a woman?  I also see this name as "Myers" pretty regularly, and even Google doesn't seem all that sure.  This is an actual question, although I'll be able to sleep without an answer to it.
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rms2
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2012, 07:39:48 AM »

Alan,

Doesn't that last bit you wrote seem to fit rather well with Cunliffe's old idea of the Atlantic Bronze Age trading and cultural network and, by extension, the Maritime Bell Beaker folk (if there were such people and MBB wasn't just pots, arrowheads and wristguards)?

I get the feeling a more thorough study of Spain would show a much smoother transition in L21 frequency from NW Spain into western France.

Rich

One thing I notice is that people tend to talk about Maritime Beakers and the Atlantic Bronze Age as if they were part of a continuoum.  However, Maritime beakers were likely invented around 2700BC and were done a few 100 years later while the Atlantic Bronze age commenced about 1300BC.  They were two different phases with a gap of at least 1000 years between.  In between  (in that gap) Atlantic Iberia was more closely connected to the west Med. groups as far as Italy.  So, they are very distinct phases.

They were distinct phases, but human life did not cease in that area in between them. Certainly trade and other forms of interaction were going on in the meantime, activities that simply peaked in intensity during the Atlantic Bronze Age and did not just suddenly spring forth full-blown without precedent.

I don't want to sound too assertive about this stuff, though. I don't really know.

As for L21 in Iberia, I think its Pyrenean concentration makes it a poor match for the Atlantic Bronze Age which was focussed on western Iberia.  It is a reasonably good match for the French and isles part of the network but so far (and I realise this needs confirmed) it is not a good match in Iberia.  I was somewhat amazed by the huge drop-off immediately west of the Basque area along the north coast in Cantabria, especially as Myres found the latter to be the peak of the (admittedly patchy) sampling of Iberia.  I recall Myres found a slight increase in L21 in Portugal too but it was well behind Cantabria (Santander).

That may be right, but I need to take a look back at Myres and Busby. As I recall, there was something funny about Myres' Spanish sampling. Was it small sample sizes? I'm not sure.
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2012, 01:25:38 PM »


It would be nice if we had the haplotypes, so we could get a variance calculation.


Yes, is there any way that the authors could make the STRs available?  I would be particularly interested in those of SRY2627 samples in France.

They may be in the study, but it's one of those pay-to-read studies, so I haven't read the whole thing.

Hmm, well I actually have subscriber access to this journal, but the article doesn't seem to be published there yet!

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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2012, 01:49:20 PM »

Myres actually found Cantabria to be the highest L21 area he tested in Iberia (he did not test the Pyrenean areas) and the rest of Iberia to be really lacking in it.

Isn't Natalie M. Myres a woman?  I also see this name as "Myers" pretty regularly, and even Google doesn't seem all that sure.  This is an actual question, although I'll be able to sleep without an answer to it.

Yes, she is a woman, and Myres is the correct, though unusual spelling. It's very easy to misspell it as Myers.
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 01:53:38 PM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 02:05:15 PM by Heber » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2012, 02:45:01 PM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)
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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2012, 03:26:45 PM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.

Okay.. what I was checking was any genetic evidence of L21 in along western Iberia, which it sounds like there isn't any (at least yet.)

I don't think we can assume that Celtic in western Iberia was L21.  L21 so far, seems most prominent in Basque country and they don't appear to have spoken Celtic (as least as far as we know.)

From what I recall, there are Celtic place names in the western Iberian Basque Country and there is a lack of Basque place names there as well. Can someone confirm?
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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2012, 04:35:57 PM »

Moving from North West Iberia to North East.

Galicia
"The Gallaeci were originally a Celtic people who have occupied for centuries the territory of modern Galicia and northern Portugal, were limited to the south with the Lusitanians and to the east with the Astures. In ethnic terms, they were the firsts Galicians (word derived from Gallaeci). The Gallaecian habitat was based in fortified villages that receive the name of Castrus (hillforts), ranging its size from small villages with less than a hectare (more common in the north), and great hillforts with more than 10 hectares, named "Oppida" or "Citânia", being this last type, more common in the southern half of the traditional settlement."
Galicia was not tested by Myres.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Galicia

Asturias
"In the Mesolithic period, a native culture developed, that of the Asturiense, and later, with the introduction of the Bronze Age, megaliths and tumuli were constructed. In the Iron Age, the territory came under the cultural influence of the Celts; the local Celtic peoples, known as the Astures, were composed of tribes such as the Luggones, the Pesicos, and others, who populated the entire area with castros (fortified hill-towns). Today the Astur Celtic influence persists in place names, such as those of rivers and mountains."
Asturias was not tested by Myres.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturias

Cantabria
"It is generally accepted that the root cant- comes from Celtic for "rock" or "stone", while -abr was a common suffix used in Celtic regions. Thus, "Cantabrian" could mean "people who live in the rocks" or highlanders, a reference to the steep and mountainous territory of Cantabria."
"A detailed analysis of place-names in ancient Cantabria shows a strong Celtic element along with an almost equally strong "Para-Celtic" element (both Indo-European) and thus disproves the idea of a substantial pre-Indo-European or Basque presence in the region.
Cantabria was tested by Myres and had one of the highest percentage of L21 in Iberia.
http://m.box.com/view_shared/hxp8ie25yv
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabri

Basque Country
"In the Iron Age an Indo-European people, probably Celtic, settled on territories adjacent to the Basque region and began to exert influence. Bearers of the late Urnfield culture followed the Ebro upstream as far as the southern fringes of the Basque Country, leading to the incorporation of the Hallstatt culture."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Basque_people

In a recent study Begona Martinez-Cruz et al study, 558 Basque men sampled. The overall frequency of L21 was 16.3%. In four sample locations it was in excess of 20%. In one sample location it was 27%.

Given the high percentage of L21 in the Basque Country and Cantabria, it is reasonable to expect a high percentage of L21 in the adjoining regions of Galicia and Asturias which have a stronger Celtic culture and language heritage.



« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 04:55:23 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
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« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2012, 06:52:32 PM »

If L21 occurs at 15%+ in Northern Iberia, there there is a good chance that it extends all the way through Galecia, the heartland of Celtic culture in Iberia, and down the west coast to Tartessos and Cadiz the supposed origin point of Celtic language. (Cunliffe and Koch). Of course it could also extend up the West coast of France to Lorient. Has anyone seen any good L21 analysis of these regions?
Is L21 15% in Northern Iberia or 15% just among the Basque groups?
If it is just among the Basque groups, why do we think it extends through Galicia and down western Iberia all the way to Cadiz?


Mike,
Galacia is the epicentre of Celtic language and culture in Iberia.
Tartessos is the supposed origin point of Celtic language according to Cunliffe and Koch. Celtic from the West. Neither location was tested by Myres for L21. I think it would be useful to have a new study which includes all the Celtic homelands including Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Morbihan, Galecia and Tartessos. I would also include other interesting origin points such as Anatolia, Balkens, Thessaly.


The idea that Galicia and to a lesser degrees Asturias just to the east are particularly Celtic is a modern nationalistic 'Celtic fringe' concept.  It was no more Celtic than anywhere else in non-Med. Iberia.  In fact, the Celti-Iberian culture in the purest sense is an east-central thing in Spain.  The Celticity of Atlantic Iberia is much more uncertain.  Lusitanian and similar dialects (more Italic-like than Celtic) are attested all over Atlantic Iberia as well as Celtic.   What Galicia was however is a very interesting nodal point on the trade routes of the Atlantic seaways..
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