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Author Topic: I'm Curious: Has Anyone Ever Calculated North American R1b Variance?  (Read 1013 times)
rms2
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« on: April 07, 2012, 08:44:47 AM »

We all use haplotype variance to guesstimate the age of y haplogroups and subclades in order to try to figure out where they came from before getting someplace else or where they might have originated.

What I wonder about are things like the effects of mass migration and different source populations on variance.

For example, we know from history that there was massive immigration into North America from Europe. Has anyone calculated North American R1b variance and compared it to R1b variance in other places?

If it turns out to be high (and I think it probably would), could it be used to argue that R1b has been in North America since very ancient times, in the teeth of what we know from recorded history?

By the way, many (probably most) of the haplotypes we currently use to calculate Old World variance actually belong to North Americans, many of whom stem from y-dna lines that have been in North America for three hundred years or more.

I wonder how North American L21 variance stacks up.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 08:55:11 AM »

I take it when overall variances for haplogroups are calculated that it includes those who dont know their European origins? 
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 11:25:08 AM »

Between 1820 and 1920 over 4.4million people emmigrated from Ireland to the US. To put that in perspective the population of the island of Ireland is now at it's highest since 1861 at around 6.3million (2011)

I would imagine that given the massive scale and of migration that diversity among Irish-Americans (descended from emmigrants of this period) is probably nearly as high as among us Irish here in Ireland.

To put in perspective close to 2 million Irish emmigrated to the US in the period 1845-1860. The population of Ireland was 8million in 1841.

Given the fairly large level of migration from other R1b "rich" countries such as Germany (5,500,000 in same period) it wouldn't be surprising that level of varience at a base "R1b" level is higher then in any single European countries. Giving the "melting pot" effect, whereas here you tend to see certain haplogroups been more dominant in particular regions (the high level of L21 in Ireland as an example)
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 11:37:12 AM »

I take it when overall variances for haplogroups are calculated that it includes those who dont know their European origins?  
Yes, that's what I do.   So an interclade between P312 and U106 is for the maximum sample I can find. I ignore the MDKA information.

The opposite of this is part of the reason why many of the geographically defined variance results are probably less accurate - smaller sample sizes because only people that list an MDKA from the desired geography are included.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 11:38:51 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 05:58:50 PM »

Here's my idea, inspired by someone else who is currently pioneering the technique for the Emerald Isle.

If I can get someone to calculate R1b variance in North America, or, even better, L21 variance, and if it's pretty high relative to other places, I will argue that L21 entered North America "shortly after the haplogroup first emerged".

Since my mdka was born in Wheeling, West Virginia (part of Virginia back then), in 1804, and it looks like the Shawnee were the Amerindians who originally inhabited that area, I will proclaim myself a Shawnee. Using the haplotype variance argument, I will 1) break through my genealogical brick wall, and 2) establish my minority group bona fides for purposes of affirmative action and all sorts of other government goodies.

It's a win-win situation!

Sheer genius!

Whoever calculates the R1b or R-L21 variance must be sure to include the haplotypes of all those who list an ancestor born in North America, regardless of surname.

Can we include Central and South America in the calculations, as well?
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2012, 06:43:03 PM »

Here's my idea, inspired by someone else who is currently pioneering the technique for the Emerald Isle.

If I can get someone to calculate R1b variance in North America, or, even better, L21 variance, and if it's pretty high relative to other places, I will argue that L21 entered North America "shortly after the haplogroup first emerged".


Maybe Solutreans will turn out to be R1b. Then you might be forced to accept your own idea, at least for R1b. They sure won't be L21, since Stanford and Bradley in their recent book, Across Atlantic Ice, argue that they arrived in America from Frances and Spain around 20,000 years ago.

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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2012, 06:51:33 PM »

Here's my idea, inspired by someone else who is currently pioneering the technique for the Emerald Isle.

If I can get someone to calculate R1b variance in North America, or, even better, L21 variance, and if it's pretty high relative to other places, I will argue that L21 entered North America "shortly after the haplogroup first emerged".


Maybe Solutreans will turn out to be R1b. Then you might be forced to accept your own idea, at least for R1b. They sure won't be L21, since Stanford and Bradley in their recent book, Across Atlantic Ice, argue that they arrived in America from Frances and Spain around 20,000 years ago.



Then I will argue for a North American Urheimat for L21.

Never mind recent history, with its influx of Britons, Irish, Scots, Germans, French, etc., etc., and never mind the European distribution of L21.

As long as it is remotely possible that L21 got here in ancient times, I am a Shawnee. :-)
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OConnor
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 07:19:01 AM »

It seems a mastadon tusk and a projectile point brought to the surface in fishing gear 60 miles off the American Virginia coast is adding to the Solutrean question.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/radical-theory-of-first-americans-places-stone-age-europeans-in-delmarva-20000-years-ago/2012/02/28/gIQA4mriiR_story.html  
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 07:21:29 AM by OConnor » Logged

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 01:00:59 PM »

It seems a mastadon tusk and a projectile point brought to the surface in fishing gear 60 miles off the American Virginia coast is adding to the Solutrean question.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/radical-theory-of-first-americans-places-stone-age-europeans-in-delmarva-20000-years-ago/2012/02/28/gIQA4mriiR_story.html  

Maybe one day someone will dig up a Solutrean skeleton in Europe and get some DNA out of it that matches some some existing American lineages. Wouldn't that be fun.
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Skip McDonald
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 04:46:29 PM »

maybe the group in question are alive and well and living as Europe's only recognized indigenous people, the Sami (Laplanders for the less well read).   Paternally many have Asian Haplotypes though... :-(  to bad for the L21 Theory...
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Jdean
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 07:26:47 PM »

maybe the group in question are alive and well and living as Europe's only recognized indigenous people, the Sami (Laplanders for the less well read).   Paternally many have Asian Haplotypes though... :-(  to bad for the L21 Theory...

Which theory would that be ?
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2012, 07:12:51 PM »

maybe the group in question are alive and well and living as Europe's only recognized indigenous people, the Sami (Laplanders for the less well read).   Paternally many have Asian Haplotypes though... :-(  to bad for the L21 Theory...

My Shawnee theory was meant as tongue-in-cheek, Skip, which I am sure you have figured out.
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A.D.
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2012, 10:04:05 PM »

I heard something on the radio that 40% of Americans (U.S.) out side of the main cities were of German decent, more so from a small region in Germany. (Could this be the Hessian s ?) so some kind of study must have been done. This figure seemed high to me but I know next to nothing about U.S. history.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2012, 10:54:13 PM »

I heard something on the radio that 40% of Americans (U.S.) out side of the main cities were of German decent, more so from a small region in Germany. (Could this be the Hessian s ?) so some kind of study must have been done. This figure seemed high to me but I know next to nothing about U.S. history.

40% may well be the case among Americans of European descent. Moreover, I think Americans of German descent have ancestry mostly from the Rhineland areas due to the Palatine (Pennsylvania Dutch) settlers of the 1700s. This is true in my case, although I have some ancestry from Hesse as well. Still, that is not far from the Rhineland.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 10:55:44 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 07:05:53 AM »

40% sounds a trifle high to me. Sounds right for Wisconsin maybe.
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A.D.
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2012, 09:30:05 AM »

I didn't get the whole thing I think Nebraska was mentioned and the bread bowl (?) so I think they must have been referring to farming settlers. Am I right in thinking most of the Irish immigrants in the 1840's settled in cities New York, Chicago, Boston.
To be quite honest thinking about it most of us here only know what they pick up from the movies unless they've actually been across the water. Evan then I don't think history is a priority.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 10:50:05 AM »

40% sounds a trifle high to me. Sounds right for Wisconsin maybe.

How about 17%??

From Wikipedia:

German Americans are citizens of the United States of German ancestry and comprise about 50 million people, or 17% of the U.S. population, the country's largest self-reported ancestral group. California, Texas and Pennsylvania have the largest numbers of German origin, although upper Midwestern states, including Ohio, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska, and the Dakotas, have the highest proportion of German Americans at over one-third.
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A.D.
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2012, 11:46:26 AM »

I wonder what you'd get if the y DNA from seferhabahir's 17% was put against the yDNA from the rest of European-Americans and people from their original homeland?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 12:33:13 PM »

... Am I right in thinking most of the Irish immigrants in the 1840's settled in cities New York, Chicago, Boston....
I don't know what the percentages are but many Irish immigrants came in through Boston during the Potato Famine era.
However, that doesn't mean they stayed there.

You have a variety of things happening in the 1850's and 1860's (much related to the Civil War) where farm land was available in the Great Plains via the Homestead Act. Immigrants of all kinds came in to claim and build on land of their own.

My immigrant ancestor came into Boston, learned to be bricklayer, moved to Eastern Iowa to work and then bought a farm in Western Iowa.

The  "Far and Away" with Tom Cruise is about the trek into the US culminating with participation in the Oklahoma Land Run of 1893.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_and_Away
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 03:47:58 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Heber
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 03:05:36 PM »

Mike,
Boston is known as the largest "Irish" city in the world, even a larger Irish population than Dublin.
You are right many continued their journey west and settled.
My own ancestors relatives went upriver to Minnesota and literally drove a stake in the virgin soil and staked their claim. The land title was signed by Abraham Lincon. The local town, now a suburb of Minneapolis was named after the family name and he became the communities first headmaster and postmaster.
And, of course they intermarried with their German neighbours.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:45:11 PM by Heber » Logged

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