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Author Topic: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?  (Read 4120 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2012, 11:59:48 AM »

I don't argue for Klyosov's theories, but I do want to make one point.  It could be true that both E-V13's TMRCA is 2800 ybp and the first E-V13 man was 7000 ybp.

I don't kow if Klyosov's findings are correct or if Anatole's method is correct, but there is a difference between the initial occurrence of an SNP and the Most Recent Common Ancestor for all surviving people for that SNP.

Fair enough, but what does it matter then if the TMRCA of all  E-V13 folks Europe is 2800 ybp, if there is solid proof that there was an E-V13 folks living in Spain 7000 ybp. I though all along that the point of using the whole TMRCA methodology was to try to track migrations....

It depends on the question you want to answer. If you want to know when an SNP was born, that is a different question than wanting to know how the modern E-V13 people got to where they are today and where they came from.

The TMRCA for a particular subclade, as a stand-alone number, is probably not that valuable other than as an indication of a time of initial expansion. I think it is more valuable to look at the multiple TMRCAs for multiple subclades in one analysis, along with interclade TMRCAs. Of course, the locations where the subclades analyzed appear is part of that.

Moreover there are a long list of assumptions that one takes when calculating the so called TMRCA.
This is why I like looking at the relative STR variance numbers because that avoids the mutation rate issues you are talking about, but variance still gives indications of direction/migration.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2012, 12:11:10 PM »

This is why I like looking at the relative STR variance numbers because that avoids the mutation rate issues you are talking about, but variance still gives indications of direction/migration.

There is no variance when mutations have happened many times forwards and backwards, as it happened for a long time ago. This principle is worth only for a short lapse of time. I have said this to you many times in the past, and you are free to believe in what you like, but for very ancient times I'm afraid that your theories will come out wrong. Already the ADNA whose also JeanL spoke has demonstrated this.
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JeanL
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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2012, 12:16:28 PM »

Ok let's us talk some numbers into this conversation:

I analyzed the Basque sample (n=116) from the Adams et al(2008) study, I found the STRs in the supplementary tables.

http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/journals/0002-9297/PIIS0002929708005922.mmc1.pdf

I was able to separate the R1b-M269(n=101) lineages, and the I-M170 lineages. (n=9). These R1b-M269 lineages are a combination of R1b-M269(xR-M153, R-SRY2627) and R-M153, and R-SRY2627. I don't know if this is a mixed sample, or if is from a single region in Euskadi. This was done back before testing for R-P312 or R-U106 and their respective subclades. There isn't also any resolution for what clades of I-M170 are present, but it wouldn't be a bad assumption to assume that most of them are I-M26.

After some analysis I discarded two of the Basque lineages, one because it had a heterozygous loci, the other one because  it had a pretty big multi-step mutation. So the final sample for R1b-M269 is n=99.

I ran them through a modal calculator a friend of mine created:

This program takes in a collection of alleles for every locus, and based on the following set of assumption estimates which one is the ancestral(modal) allele:

1-The ancestral allele is such that minimizes the number of mutations in a given locus for a population.

2- The ancestral allele is still present in the sample being analyzed.

This is the ancestral haplotype for the R1b-M269 found in Basques(n=99) from Adams et al(2008)

DYS19 14
DYS388 12
DYS389I 13
DYS389 II 16
DYS390 24
DYS391 11
DYS392 13
DYS393 13
DYS434 11
DYS435 11
DYS436 12
DYS437 15
DYS438 12
DYS439 12
DYS460 11
DYS461 12
DYS462 11
DYS385a 11
DYS385b 14

This is the ancestral haplotype for the I-M170 found in Basques(n=9) from Adams et al(2008)

DYS19 17
DYS388 13
DYS389I 13
DYS389 II 15
DYS390 23
DYS391 10
DYS392 11
DYS393 13
DYS434 11
DYS435 11
DYS436 12
DYS437 15
DYS438 10
DYS439 12
DYS460 10
DYS461 11
DYS462 12
DYS385a 12
DYS385b 12

Now these are the amount of mutations accumulated from the presumed modal haplotype. For R1b-M269(n=99)

DYS19 7 mutations
DYS388 0 mutations
DYS389I 48 mutations
DYS389 II 21 mutations
DYS390 24 mutations
DYS391 37 mutations
DYS392 2 mutations
DYS393 17 mutations
DYS434 1 mutation
DYS435 3 mutations
DYS436 0 mutations
DYS437 30 mutations
DYS438 2 mutations
DYS439 52 mutations
DYS460 46 mutations
DYS461 8 mutations
DYS462 4 mutations
DYS385a 11 mutations
DYS385b 38 mutations

Same thing for I-M170(n=9)

DYS19 7 mutations
DYS388 1 mutation
DYS389I 5 mutations
DYS389 II 2 mutations
DYS390 4 mutations
DYS391 2 mutations
DYS392 0 mutations
DYS393 0 mutation
DYS434 1 mutation
DYS435 0 mutations
DYS436 0 mutations
DYS437 4 mutations
DYS438 0 mutations
DYS439 7 mutations
DYS460 2 mutations
DYS461 2 mutations
DYS462 2 mutations
DYS385a 1 mutations
DYS385b 9 mutations
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 12:17:28 PM by JeanL » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2012, 12:20:52 PM »

There is no variance when mutations have happened many times forwards and backwards, as it happened for a long time ago.
Let's not clog up this thread with the details of this argument. I created an "STR Wars" thread to do that over there.
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JeanL
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2012, 12:26:20 PM »

Ok, moved my reply to a different thread I feel is more appropriate.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 12:31:08 PM by JeanL » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2012, 08:13:55 PM »

I'm still amazed by the high rates of L21 among the Basque populations sampled. Of course, that has been remarked on before by me and others, but it still floors me. I didn't expect it. I think it's cool, but I'm not exactly sure why. :-)

It's certainly worth discussing. I am not sure what to think about it.
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2012, 08:44:33 PM »

I'm still amazed by the high rates of L21 among the Basque populations sampled. Of course, that has been remarked on before by me and others, but it still floors me. I didn't expect it. I think it's cool, but I'm not exactly sure why. :-)

It's certainly worth discussing. I am not sure what to think about it.

BTW, I wrote Maciamo Hay of Eupedia to see if I can get him to update his R-L21 map based on the new Basque info from Begoña Martinez-Cruz et al.

The overall L21 frequency among their Basque sample of 558 was just in excess of 16%, and it exceeded 25% in some locations. That is certainly worthy of note.
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JeanL
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2012, 09:09:56 PM »

I'm still amazed by the high rates of L21 among the Basque populations sampled.

There seems to be an East-West cline for R-L21 on the French Basque provinces based on the data from Martinez-Cruz. The same thing applies to R-M153, but in the opposite direction.
 
Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=44) Table S4

R-L21+     12/44 or 27.27%

Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=66) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/66 or 13.63%

Zuberoa SOU (n=53) Table S4

R-L21+     3/53 or 5.67%

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=53) Table S4

 R-L21+    11/53 or 20.75%

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=60) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/60 or 15%

North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     5/60 8.33%

Guipuscoa GUI (n=47) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/47 or 19.15%

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     13/57 or 22.81%

Alava, ALA (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     11/51 or 21.57%

Bizkaia BBA (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     7/57 or 12.28%

Western Bizkaia BOC(n=19) Table S4

R-L21+     2/19 or 10.53%

Maybe there is a link between R-L21 and the Atlantic Bronze Age after all.

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rms2
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« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2012, 07:05:03 AM »


There seems to be an East-West cline for R-L21 on the French Basque provinces based on the data from Martinez-Cruz. The same thing applies to R-M153, but in the opposite direction.
 
Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=44) Table S4

R-L21+     12/44 or 27.27%

Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=66) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/66 or 13.63%

Zuberoa SOU (n=53) Table S4

R-L21+     3/53 or 5.67%

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=53) Table S4

 R-L21+    11/53 or 20.75%

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=60) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/60 or 15%

North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     5/60 8.33%

Guipuscoa GUI (n=47) Table S4

 R-L21+     9/47 or 19.15%

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     13/57 or 22.81%

Alava, ALA (n=51) Table S4

 R-L21+     11/51 or 21.57%

Bizkaia BBA (n=57) Table S4

 R-L21+     7/57 or 12.28%

Western Bizkaia BOC(n=19) Table S4

R-L21+     2/19 or 10.53%

Maybe there is a link between R-L21 and the Atlantic Bronze Age after all.



Could be. What I think is kind of outstanding is the sample size: 558. That's big enough so that it is rather difficult to claim these results as some kind of aberration. There is definitely something to this.

BTW, I think I am going to use your post above as a quote to start a new thread on the subject of L21 in the Basque Country.
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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2012, 03:36:33 PM »


                                                                      So it seems that in the French Basque provinces R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152) is dominant over the R-P312, however R-L23 makes an appearance in 2 out of the 3 sampled populations, and also there is R-P311 in one of them. It also worth noticing that R-U106 appears in 2 out of the three populations. Something else to notice is that the ratio of R-L21/R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627) decreases as one moves east. The exception to this rule would be Western Bizkaia, but then again the sample size is really small(i.e. 19). In the case of the Spanish Basque provinces all of them have higher frequencies of R-P312(x R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), than R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), so in that sense they do have older clades. Also worth noticing the lack of R-U106 in all of the Spanish Basque provinces, minus Navarra, and the dominance of R-L21 over the R-M153/R-SRY2627 combo in Guipuscoa, Bizkaia and Alava.



Very interesting, and worthy of some thought. On the issue of whether the Basque P312 is a remnant of a pre-IE population, I compared the near absence of L23 (xP311) amongst the Basques with the L23* data from the FTDNA ht35 project. The amount of R1b-L23* from Turkey, Armenia and other middle eastern populations dwarfs those from western Europe in general and Iberia in particular. To my way of thinking, this clearly demonstrates an east to west movement for L23 and its descendant subclades. A large movement of a non-IE speaking R1b population from the middle east, which eventually swamps all of Europe, seems very difficult to support. It requires pushing the origin of R1b subclades far into the past, and poses an even greater mystery of how IE spread throughout Europe.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 03:37:20 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2012, 05:21:22 PM »

                                                                   So it seems that in the French Basque provinces R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152) is dominant over the R-P312, however R-L23 makes an appearance in 2 out of the 3 sampled populations, and also there is R-P311 in one of them. It also worth noticing that R-U106 appears in 2 out of the three populations. Something else to notice is that the ratio of R-L21/R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627) decreases as one moves east. The exception to this rule would be Western Bizkaia, but then again the sample size is really small(i.e. 19). In the case of the Spanish Basque provinces all of them have higher frequencies of R-P312(x R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), than R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), so in that sense they do have older clades. Also worth noticing the lack of R-U106 in all of the Spanish Basque provinces, minus Navarra, and the dominance of R-L21 over the R-M153/R-SRY2627 combo in Guipuscoa, Bizkaia and Alava.



Very interesting, and worthy of some thought. On the issue of whether the Basque P312 is a remnant of a pre-IE population, I compared the near absence of L23 (xP311) amongst the Basques with the L23* data from the FTDNA ht35 project. The amount of R1b-L23* from Turkey, Armenia and other middle eastern populations dwarfs those from western Europe in general and Iberia in particular. To my way of thinking, this clearly demonstrates an east to west movement for L23 and its descendant subclades. A large movement of a non-IE speaking R1b population from the middle east, which eventually swamps all of Europe, seems very difficult to support. It requires pushing the origin of R1b subclades far into the past, and poses an even greater mystery of how IE spread throughout Europe.

I think it worth to consider the whole phylogenetic trail of R1b-M343 down through P312.  It is more complicated than just L23+ or L23- though and the R1b ht35 project data becomes critical. Of course, we'll be talking about alternatives like Italy, Anatolia and the Near East and then some people in the Ukraine with particular religious affiliations.  Unfortunately, I don't know of a study that has looked in depth at R1b xU106 xP312 and all its subclades and trail.
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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2012, 07:33:20 PM »

Very interesting, and worthy of some thought. On the issue of whether the Basque P312 is a remnant of a pre-IE population, I compared the near absence of L23 (xP311) amongst the Basques with the L23* data from the FTDNA ht35 project. The amount of R1b-L23* from Turkey, Armenia and other middle eastern populations dwarfs those from western Europe in general and Iberia in particular. To my way of thinking, this clearly demonstrates an east to west movement for L23 and its descendant subclades. A large movement of a non-IE speaking R1b population from the middle east, which eventually swamps all of Europe, seems very difficult to support. It requires pushing the origin of R1b subclades far into the past, and poses an even greater mystery of how IE spread throughout Europe.

Here is the data of L23(xM412) from Myres et al(2010) Table-S2

Top populations with significant percentages of L23(xM412)

1-Bagvalals (Northeast Caucasus) 19/28 R-L23
2-Tabasarans (Northeast Caucasus) 16/43 R-L23
3-Bashkirs South-east (Bashkortostan, Russia) 106/329
4-Switzerland (Upper Rhone Valley) 9/33
5-Bashkirs South-west (Bashkortostan, Russia) 9/54
6-Turkey (Cappadocia) 13/89
7-Kumyks (Northeast Caucasus) 11/76
8-Lezgis (Northeast Caucasus) 4/31
9-Komis (Perm Oblast, Russia) 7/61
10-Bashkirs South (Bashkortostan, Russia) 9/79
11-Kosovo 13/114
12-Turkey 58/522



« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 12:40:32 AM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2012, 12:39:07 AM »

Here is the variance calculation of the L23(xM412) data from Table-S3 of Myres et al(2010) by regions using all 10 STRs.

Caucasus(n=32) 0.3063

Europe(n=86) 0.2302
    Eastern-Europe(n=57) 0.2070
    Western-Europe(n=29) 0.2759

Middle East: Turkey(n=58) 0.2828

Central Asia: Bashkir(n=29)-Pakistan(n=5) 0.1029

Here is the variance calculation of the L23(xM412) data from Table-S3 of Myres et al(2010) by regions using the 3 STRs with the slowest/more linear mutation rates (DYS388, DYS392, DYS393).

Caucasus(n=32) 0.1875

Europe(n=86) 0.1434
    Eastern-Europe(n=57) 0.1228
    Western-Europe(n=29) 0.1839

Middle East: Turkey(n=58) 0.1552

Central Asia: Bashkir(n=29)-Pakistan(n=5) 0.0588

So here is a really good example of what I was previously talking about, when doing the variance for the Myres et al(2010) dataset, if one takes the European continent as a whole and using all the 10 STRs(Where 3 are slow mutating STRs, and 7 are fast mutating) it turns out that the variance of L-23 goes like Caucasus(0.3063)>Turkey(0.2828)>Europe(0.2302)>Central Asia(0.1029). But when Europe is divided into Eastern and Western Europe, it turns out Western Europe(var=0.2759) has a much greater variance than Eastern Europe(var=0.2070), and almost the same variance as Turkey(var= 0.2828). Now when I only used the slowest STRs, which are the most linear ones, it turns out Western Europe(var=0.1839) has a variance which is somewhat smaller than that of the Caucasus (var=0.1875), but it is greater than that of Turkey( var=0.1552).

Just for the purpose of showing the effects of microsatellite choice, here is the variance using the fastest/less linear STRs (DYS390, DYS391, DYS19, DYS439)

Caucasus(n=32) 0.3203

Europe(n=86) 0.2297
    Eastern-Europe(n=57) 0.1930
    Western-Europe(n=29) 0.3017

Middle East: Turkey(n=58) 0.3707

Central Asia: Bashkir(n=29)-Pakistan(n=5) 0.1250

Surprise, surprise, now Turkey (0.3707) shows a higher variance than Western Europe(0.3017) and the Causasus(0.3203). So here is the perfect example of what I was talking about. Something very clear though: is that for any given combination of STRs the variance of R-L23 in Western Europe is far greater than that of Eastern Europe, at least for the Myres et al(2010) dataset. This doesn’t fit with the scenario of L-23 coming from the East via continental Europe. Using the slowest/most linear STRs on this dataset it seems L-23 is about the same age in Western Europe as it is in the Caucasus, and older than Turkey, and a lot older than in Eastern Europe. Any thoughts as to what could cause such scenario?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 04:07:52 PM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2012, 03:23:12 PM »

wouldn't the numbers increase at the natural barrier, that being the ocean?
i thought that was the idea behind the Atlantic sequence?
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« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2012, 08:42:11 PM »

Something very clear though: is that for any given combination of STRs the variance of R-L23 in Western Europe is far greater than that of Eastern Europe ... Any thoughts as to what could cause such scenario?

It would fit my theory that there were different waves into Western Europe in the Copper Age via the Mediterranean from the Danube/Western steppe area - some speaking IE and others speaking languages of other cultures there.
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« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2012, 08:44:27 PM »

wouldn't the numbers increase at the natural barrier, that being the ocean?
i thought that was the idea behind the Atlantic sequence?

The density of the R1b haplogroup overall increases towards the ocean. That doesn't necessarily mean that the percentage of R-L23 specifically will increase, or that its diversity will increase.
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« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2012, 09:37:49 PM »

It would fit my theory that there were different waves into Western Europe in the Copper Age via the Mediterranean from the Danube/Western steppe area - some speaking IE and others speaking languages of other cultures there.

Well, wouldn't that mean that the regions closet to the origin of R-L23 would have a greater variance, how come the Western European sample from Myres et al(2010) has a far greater variance than the Eastern European sample. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 09:40:37 PM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2012, 10:00:12 PM »

High variance can arise in various ways:

  • By accumulating new mutations at the point of origin, where a haplogroup has been longest.
  • By migration of an entire population (or a large sample of it) from the point of origin to a new locale, taking with it the variance that developed in the source population.
  • By migration into a locale of individuals from more than one source of a particular haplogroup, carrying mutations that have arisen in those sources. The sources could include the original point of origin, but are not restricted to it. The classic model is the United States, which could have R-L23 from various European and Asian countries, which has had time to develop various mutations in those countries prior to moving to the US.
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« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2012, 10:15:25 PM »

High variance can arise in various ways:

  • By accumulating new mutations at the point of origin, where a haplogroup has been longest.
  • By migration of an entire population (or a large sample of it) from the point of origin to a new locale, taking with it the variance that developed in the source population.
  • By migration into a locale of individuals from more than one source of a particular haplogroup, carrying mutations that have arisen in those sources. The sources could include the original point of origin, but are not restricted to it. The classic model is the United States, which could have R-L23 from various European and Asian countries, which has had time to develop various mutations in those countries prior to moving to the US.


Well the variance found in Western Europe isn’t much lower than that of the Caucasus, if a sub-set of men left the Caucasus during the Bronze age and left for Western Europe, then those folks who stayed behind would accumulate much more variance than the subset that left. As for the different sources of the L23, I agree, but that scenario could very well apply in Anatolia, the Caucasus, etc. Is there some sort of barrier that makes migration of L23 only from Western Asia to Europe?   
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« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2012, 10:29:18 PM »

..  if a sub-set of men left the Caucasus during the Bronze age and left for Western Europe

The Caucasus is highly unlikely to be the source for the European population. R1b seems to have arrived in the Caucasus long after the Bronze Age. In the North Caucasus it has been dated to a period consistent with incoming Sarmatian men in the Late Iron Age, followed by elite families of Alans in the early Middle Ages. It is found in Ossets today. Among Armenians the haplotypes of individuals belonging to the R1b1a2*-M269 and R1b1a2a*-L23 lineages are similar to those of East European descent, consistent with the Armenian language coming from the Eastern Balkans via Anatolia in the 6th century BC, as deduced from linguistics and an account by Herodotus.
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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2012, 10:36:54 PM »

..  if a sub-set of men left the Caucasus during the Bronze age and left for Western Europe

The Caucasus is highly unlikely to be the source for the European population. R1b seems to have arrived in the Caucasus long after the Bronze Age. In the North Caucasus it has been dated to a period consistent with incoming Sarmatian men in the Late Iron Age, followed by elite families of Alans in the early Middle Ages. It is found in Ossets today. Among Armenians the haplotypes of individuals belonging to the R1b1a2*-M269 and R1b1a2a*-L23 lineages are similar to those of East European descent, consistent with the Armenian language coming from the Eastern Balkans via Anatolia in the 6th century BC, as deduced from linguistics and an account by Herodotus.

Well the Caucasus populations are the ones with the highest variance of R-L23, at least from the data from Myres et al(2010), which doesn’t include Armenians but Northeast Caucasian people such as Bagvalals, Tabasarans, Kumyks, Lezgis. If Eastern Europe was the source of R-L23 to the Caucasus, then it makes no sense that Eastern Europe would have such a low variance compared to the Caucasus.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2012, 10:38:05 PM »

Here is the variance calculation of the L23(xM412) data from Table-S3 of Myres et al(2010) by regions using all 10 STRs.
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Here is the variance calculation of the L23(xM412) data from Table-S3 of Myres et al(2010) by regions using the 3 STRs with the slowest/more linear mutation rates (DYS388, DYS392, DYS393).
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So here is a really good example of what I was previously talking about
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Just for the purpose of showing the effects of microsatellite choice, here is the variance using the fastest/less linear STRs (DYS390, DYS19, DYS439)...

Just three or ten STRs are just not enough. Of course, with such a limited experiment you are going to get erratic results.  Remember Sandy Paterson's simulations where it was determined you need a minimum of 50 STRs to have any precision?

Also, I think you are doing comparisons of R-L23xM412. This is NOT a haplogroup. It is a paragroup. Since it is not really a single group with a single common ancestor I'm not sure that is a valid comparison to make between geographies.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
JeanL
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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2012, 10:52:51 PM »

Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10511.msg129159#msg129159

Just three or ten STRs are just not enough. Of course, with such a limited experiment you are going to get erratic results.  Remember Sandy Paterson's simulations where it was determined you need a minimum of 50 STRs to have any precision?

Also, I think you are doing comparisons of R-L23xM412. This is NOT a haplogroup. It is a paragroup. Since it is not really a single group with a single common ancestor I'm not sure that is a valid comparison to make between geographies.

I'm working with what I got, the data from Myres et al(2010) was sampled using 10 STRs, and the point of the exercise I did, was to show how much the variance changed when one used more linear vs.less linear STRs. As you can see when all of the STRs are used, Turkey turns out to have a higher variance than Western Europe, but when the slowest, most linear ones are used, it turns out Western Europe has a higher variance. It’s not about the numbers, but about the choice, of course 10-20 slow STRs trump 3 slow STRs, however to say that a set of 50 STRs regardless of their mutation rate is better than a set of 10-20 slow STRs is just not logic to me. Yeah I’m doing comparisons on the L23(xM412) data from Myres et al(2010), and yes maybe the folks from the Caucasus are have some SNP than the folks from Europe do not have, but that doesn’t change the fact that they both descend from an L23 man, so yeah it is a group with a single common ancestor. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 10:56:08 PM by JeanL » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2012, 07:17:00 AM »

Well the Caucasus populations are the ones with the highest variance of R-L23, at least from the data from Myres et al (2010), which doesn’t include Armenians

Yes it does. Here is the list of populations of the Caucasus included in the Myers dataset which contained any R-L23 arranged by language:

Indo-European
Armenians 0.038
Northern Osetins 0.045

Turkic
Balkars (Karachay-Balkar) 0.022
Karachays (Karachay-Balkar) 0.043
Kumyks (Kumyk) 0.145

North-East Caucasian of Dagestan branch
Andis (Avar-Andi branch) 0.061
Avars (Avar-Andi branch) 0.024
Darginians 0.029
Bagvalals (Lezgi branch) 0.679
Lezgis (Lezgi branch) 0.129
Tabasarans (Lezgi branch) 0.372

North-West Caucasian
Abazas (Abkhaz-Abazin branch) 0.034
Abkhazes (Abkhaz-Abazin branch) 0.031
Cherkessians (Circassian branch) 0.008
Kabardians (Circassian branch) 0.028

Kartvelian
Megrels  0.015

The Caucasus has been a place of refuge for various peoples at various times. It is a patchwork of different languages, preserved in some cases in isolated valleys. The Caucasus should never be treated as though it were a single population. It has been a receiver of populations from many sources. I would be absolutely astonished not to find high variance here.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 07:19:47 AM by Jean M » Logged
JeanL
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« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2012, 11:07:45 AM »

OK here is detailed breakdown of the populations used to calculate the variance in the Caucasus sample of the Myres et al(2010) sample.

Total(n=32)

Abkhazes-1
Andis-3
Armenians-1
Avars-1
Bagvalals-6
Balkars-1
Cherkessians-1
Darginians-2
Kabardinians-2
Kumyks-3
Lezgis-3
Megrels-1
Northern Osetin-2
Tabassarans-5
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