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Author Topic: Why did do the Basques have so much R1b-P312 and what does that mean?  (Read 4003 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: April 11, 2012, 07:07:58 PM »

We touch on this subject from time to time so I figure we might as well have direct thread for it. If I'm missing a prior one, RMS, please tack this on it to it.

I had one new thought (at least for me) on this. Apparently, linking the language of the Basques, Euskara, with other languages is quite difficult.

...  People have tried to prove links between Euskara and a great array of other languages and/or that a Basque-type of language was spoken all over Europe in the Mesolithic. None of this has been accepted by mainstream linguists such as the late Larry Trask, expert in Euskara. He did admit that there was a legitimate case for a link with PIE (Antonio Tovar argued that the suffix -ko in Basque is so similar in its behaviour to the same suffix reconstructed for PIE that they must have a common origin), but he could make no sense of that, because he assumed that Euskara was a language born in western Europe.  

Is there a link with some Caucasian languages?

Here is the new thought:  If R1b learned IE languages from R1a or someone else all over Europe (I don't necessarily agree but I want to understand) then why wouldn't Celtic and Italic languages show some influence from Euskara?

R1b is very dominant in some areas of Europe so I think that if R1b folks in Europe originally spoke something like a pre-Euskara language then that would have had some impact on Celtic or Italic languages.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 07:11:26 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 07:26:22 PM »

One thing noticable on Eurogenes is the lack of "Caucasus" scores for Basques. French and even some Irish, Cornish, UK and other populations show anywhere from 4% to 12+%, but the Basques show 0%. Georgians and Armenians are, of course, among the highest scores.

I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian and show a "Caucasus" score of 8%. High for an Irish guy, but not out of line with a Cornish or Kent guy.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 07:32:05 PM »

One thing noticable on Eurogenes is the lack of "Caucasus" scores for Basques. French and even some Irish, Cornish, UK and other populations show anywhere from 4% to 12+%, but the Basques show 0%. Georgians and Armenians are, of course, among the highest scores.

I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian and show a "Caucasus" score of 8%. High for an Irish guy, but not out of line with a Cornish or Kent guy.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

I haven't done the Eurogenes thing with my Family Finder raw data. How does one go about it?

I did Gedmatch, though. I don't recall a "Caucasian" component, but I did get an interesting 11% "Eastern European", which is surprising, since I don't know of any Eastern European ancestry in my background. Of course, that 11% may go back to something pretty old.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 08:12:36 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 07:36:56 PM »

We touch on this subject from time to time so I figure we might as well have direct thread for it. If I'm missing a prior one, RMS, please tack this on it to it.

I had one new thought (at least for me) on this. Apparently, linking the language of the Basques, Euskara, with other languages is quite difficult.

...  People have tried to prove links between Euskara and a great array of other languages and/or that a Basque-type of language was spoken all over Europe in the Mesolithic. None of this has been accepted by mainstream linguists such as the late Larry Trask, expert in Euskara. He did admit that there was a legitimate case for a link with PIE (Antonio Tovar argued that the suffix -ko in Basque is so similar in its behaviour to the same suffix reconstructed for PIE that they must have a common origin), but he could make no sense of that, because he assumed that Euskara was a language born in western Europe.  

Is there a link with some Caucasian languages?

Here is the new thought:  If R1b learned IE languages from R1a or someone else all over Europe (I don't necessarily agree but I want to understand) then why wouldn't Celtic and Italic languages show some influence from Euskara?

R1b is very dominant in some areas of Europe so I think that if R1b folks in Europe originally spoke something like a pre-Euskara language then that would have had some impact on Celtic or Italic languages.

Some linguists claim to see a connection between Euskara and some Caucasian languages, but no one has been able to establish anything firm.

I find that quote about Euskara and PIE possibly having a common origin very interesting.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 08:06:57 PM »

Personally, I don't make the leap that P312 was necessarily present in the original Basque population, prior the arrival of IE speakers in the area. I don't deny it is a possibilty, but I don't accept it as proven. The fact that there is so much M153, which is a relatively young P312 subclade, suggests to me that it is a later admixture. There is no doubt that virtually all of the R1b in Iberia and southern France is P312, so there would have been no shortage of it in the area. If it was there long before the Bronze Age, I would expect Basque R1b to be primarily older varieties of P312.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 08:09:41 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2012, 08:11:18 PM »


Personally, I don't make the leap that P312 was necessarily present in the original Basque population, prior the arrival of IE speakers in the area. I don't deny it is a possibilty, but I don't accept it as proven. The fact that there is so much M153, which is a relatively young P312 subclade, suggests to me that it is a later admixture. There is no doubt that virtually all of the R1b in Iberia and southern France is P312, so there would have been no shortage of it in the area. If it was there prior to the Bronze Age, I would expect Basque R1b to be primarily older varieties of P312.

Along those same lines, I tend to think the original Basque y haplogroup could have been I-M26, which is still found among them at a decent frequency but which reaches its peak in Sardinia. I understand there might be a connection between the Basque language and an ancient Sardinian language, as well.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 10:27:33 PM »

One thing noticable on Eurogenes is the lack of "Caucasus" scores for Basques. French and even some Irish, Cornish, UK and other populations show anywhere from 4% to 12+%, but the Basques show 0%. Georgians and Armenians are, of course, among the highest scores.

I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian and show a "Caucasus" score of 8%. High for an Irish guy, but not out of line with a Cornish or Kent guy.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

I haven't done the Eurogenes thing with my Family Finder raw data. How does one go about it?

I did Gedmatch, though. I don't recall a "Caucasian" component, but I did get an interesting 11% "Eastern European", which is surprising, since I don't know of any Eastern European ancestry in my background. Of course, that 11% may go back to something pretty old.

He usually wants all four grandparents from a foreign country (he made and exception with me because I group mostly with Irish - 3 Irish, 1 French-Canadian), but he has also opened it up to lots of US testers. He doesn't always use the US populations in his runs, but he does from time to time. I believe David's contact is on his blog. I'll look for it. If not, I bet his K12q test will show up on Gedmatch and it has Caucasus.
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JeanL
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 10:42:30 PM »

If it was there long before the Bronze Age, I would expect Basque R1b to be primarily older varieties of P312.

Well according to the data of Martinez-Cruz et al(2012) here is the breakdown of the R1b-M269 clades amongst the different Basque populations sampled:

Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=44) Table S4

R-L23+    38/44
    R-L23(xR-P311)   1/44
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   1/44
            R-U106+    0/44
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/44
                   R-L48    0/44
            R-P312+     36/44
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    16/44
                   R-U152+    1/44
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/44
                         R-L20    0/44
                         R-L2   1/44
                   R-L21+     12/44
                   R-Z196+   7/44
                         R-M153   5/44
                         R-SRY2627   2/44

Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=66) Table S4

R-L23+    52/66
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/66
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/66
            R-U106+    3/66
                R-U106(xR-L48)    1/66
                   R-L48    2/66
            R-P312+     49/66
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    21/66
                   R-U152+    1/66
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/66
                         R-L20    0/66
                         R-L2   1/66
                   R-L21+     9/66
                   R-Z196+   18/66
                         R-M153  10/66
                         R-SRY2627   8/66

Zuberoa SOU (n=53) Table S4

R-L23+    42/53
    R-L23(xR-P311)   1/53
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/53
            R-U106+    0/53
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/53
                   R-L48    0/53
            R-P312+     41/53
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    14/53
                   R-U152+    0/53
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/53
                         R-L20    0/53
                         R-L2   0/53
                   R-L21+     3/53
                   R-Z196+   24/53
                         R-M153  23/53
                         R-SRY2627   1/53

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=53) Table S4

R-L23+    45/53
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/53
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/53
            R-U106+    1/53
                R-U106(xR-L48)    1/53
                   R-L48    0/53
            R-P312+     44/53
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    16/53
                   R-U152+    3/53
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   2/53
                         R-L20    0/53
                         R-L2   1/53
                   R-L21+    11/53
                   R-Z196+   14/53
                         R-M153  9/53
                         R-SRY2627   5/53

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=60) Table S4

R-L23+    50/60
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/60
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/60
            R-U106+    0/60
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/60
                   R-L48    0/60
            R-P312+     50/60
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    27/60
                   R-U152+    0/60
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/60
                         R-L20    0/60
                         R-L2   0/60
                   R-L21+     9/60
                   R-Z196+   14/60
                         R-M153  10/60
                         R-SRY2627   4/60

North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

R-L23+    46/51
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/51
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   1/51
            R-U106+    3/51
                R-U106(xR-L48)    2/51
                   R-L48    1/51
            R-P312+     42/51
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    22/51
                   R-U152+    3/51
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/51
                         R-L20    2/51
                         R-L2   1/51
                   R-L21+     5/60
                   R-Z196+   12/51
                         R-M153   8/51
                         R-SRY2627   4/51

Guipuscoa GUI (n=47) Table S4

R-L23+    41/47
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/47
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/47
            R-U106+    0/47
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/47
                   R-L48    0/47
            R-P312+     41/47
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    26/47
                   R-U152+    0/47
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/47
                         R-L20    0/47
                         R-L2   0/47
                   R-L21+     9/47
                   R-Z196+   6/47
                         R-M153   5/47
                         R-SRY2627   1/47

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=57) Table S4

R-L23+    53/57
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/57
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/57
            R-U106+    0/57
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/57
                   R-L48    0/57
            R-P312+     53/57
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    32/57
                   R-U152+    0/57
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/57
                         R-L20    0/57
                         R-L2   0/57
                   R-L21+     13/57
                   R-Z196+   8/57
                         R-M153   4/57
                         R-SRY2627   4/57

Alava, ALA (n=51) Table S4

R-L23+    37/51
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/51
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/51
            R-U106+    0/51
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/51
                   R-L48    0/51
            R-P312+     37/51
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    18/51
                   R-U152+    2/51
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/51
                         R-L20    0/51
                         R-L2   2/51
                   R-L21+     11/51
                   R-Z196+   6/51
                         R-M153   2/51
                         R-SRY2627   4/51

Bizkaia BBA (n=57) Table S4

R-L23+    52/57
    R-L23(xR-P311)   1/57
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/57
            R-U106+    0/57
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/57
                   R-L48    0/57
            R-P312+     51/57
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    35/57
                   R-U152+    2/57
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/57
                         R-L20    0/57
                         R-L2   2/57
                   R-L21+     7/57
                   R-Z196+   7/57
                         R-M153   7/57
                         R-SRY2627   0/57

Western Bizkaia BOC(n=19) Table S4

R-L23+    16/19
    R-L23(xR-P311)   0/19
        R-P311(xR-U106, R-P312)   0/19
            R-U106+    0/19
                R-U106(xR-L48)    0/19
                   R-L48    0/19
            R-P312+     16/19
                R-P312(xR-U152, R-L21, R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627))    9/19
                   R-U152+    1/19
                      R-U152(xR-L20, R-L2)   0/19
                         R-L20    0/19
                         R-L2   1/19
                   R-L21+     2/19
                   R-Z196+   4/19
                         R-M153   3/19
                         R-SRY2627   1/19

So it seems that in the French Basque provinces R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152) is dominant over the R-P312, however R-L23 makes an appearance in 2 out of the 3 sampled populations, and also there is R-P311 in one of them. It also worth noticing that R-U106 appears in 2 out of the three populations. Something else to notice is that the ratio of R-L21/R-Z196+(R-M153, R-SRY2627) decreases as one moves east. The exception to this rule would be Western Bizkaia, but then again the sample size is really small(i.e. 19). In the case of the Spanish Basque provinces all of them have higher frequencies of R-P312(x R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), than R-P312+(R-L21, R-Z196+,R-U152), so in that sense they do have older clades. Also worth noticing the lack of R-U106 in all of the Spanish Basque provinces, minus Navarra, and the dominance of R-L21 over the R-M153/R-SRY2627 combo in Guipuscoa, Bizkaia and Alava.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 10:42:50 PM by JeanL » Logged
razyn
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2012, 12:23:43 AM »

I'm pleased that a study exists that includes Z196.  But the implication that the Z196 of the Basque populated area equals the sum of M153 and SRY2627 seems likely to underestimate the total Z196, by a large factor.  Z209 or Z220 will presumably hit the literature in about another year or so, adding in the NS cluster folks, and the Z196 percentages will go up.  In the meantime, DF27 testing may have made these conversations about Z196 passé, and we can speculate about how much of the P312 (or M269, or whatever subset of R1b) in the Basque country is DF27.  Hint: a lot.
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 03:06:44 AM »

I'm pleased that a study exists that includes Z196.


It doesn't include Z196.

I presume this had been inferred, so theoretically some of the P312 could include Z196+ samples that are xM153 xSRY2627

These are R1b markers tested:
R-L2
R-L20
R-L21
R-L23
R-L48
R-M153
R-M17
R-P311
R-P312
R-SRY10831.2
R-SRY2627
R-U106
R-U152
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 05:14:31 AM »

R1b is very dominant in some areas of Europe so I think that if R1b folks in Europe originally spoke something like a pre-Euskara language then that would have had some impact on Celtic or Italic languages.

Theo Vennemann does make the claim that celtic languages, and even germanic languages, show a vasconic substrate in Europa Semitica Europa Vasconica. In addition he cites many toponyms, eg. Basque haran, meaning valley, persisting as aran in places like Val d'Aran, Arundel or Arendal. Also he claims that the vigesimal counting system, ie counting in 20s, four score and ten meaning 90, is vasconic in origin. His critics however nearly always show that some of his claims could also have indo european explanations and, as Basque is known to be influenced by IE, it is not possible to back project Basque to some early version of Vasconic and assume any particular feature was present then and exclusive to Vasconic.
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2012, 06:38:38 AM »

Manfred Ostrowski, History of the Basque Language is available online from the Department of Hispanic Studies, Texas A&M University. (Seems to be a written form of a lecture delivered there, with reading list incorporated, with his name spelled incorrectly.)

Ostrowski covers the questions raised here in a straightforward and readable way. For those interested in possible links between the ancestor of Euskara and PIE, there is interesting material. He is not suggesting that they had a common ancestor. PIE and Euskara are too different for that, but borrowings from Proto-Basque to PIE, including one word for silver (zillar).

The other Basque word for silver (urre-zuri)  literally means "white gold". I point out in The Basques that this suggests a region where gold was discovered first. That points to the eastern Balkans, and cultures such as Cucuteni-Tripolye.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:09:20 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2012, 08:03:19 AM »


[/quote]

I haven't done the Eurogenes thing with my Family Finder raw data. How does one go about it?

I did Gedmatch, though. I don't recall a "Caucasian" component, but I did get an interesting 11% "Eastern European", which is surprising, since I don't know of any Eastern European ancestry in my background. Of course, that 11% may go back to something pretty old.
[/quote]

The Eurogenes currently running on Gedmatch has a Caucasus score. I was 7.1% on this one, which is slightly down from other scores. The point is, though, is that most Basque testers would get a 0% Caucasus score. Odd, but true!
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2012, 08:38:17 AM »


.. most Basque testers would get a 0% Caucasus score. Odd, but true!

Not really odd. Fits with various studies which have found no genetic connection. See my page on the Basques.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 08:39:23 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 09:12:39 AM »

Anatole defines something called “ancient Türkic” which may not be Turkic as we understand it today.  The point he has is that it is agglutinative and he thinks the Basques ancient language is too.  Is there anything to that?

Quote from: Anatole Klyosov
What the article calls “Türkic” or “ancient Türkic” language is based only on the fact that Turkologists call it Türkic. Analyzing the ancient texts (see below) they see specifically the agglutinative Türkic language, the Türkic ethnonyms in Europe. It is possible that this is a misunderstanding, and what they see is an agglutinative language of the haplogroup R1b ancient carriers, which can be called “Erbin” (after R1b). It could be, but not necessarily, a basis, a ground, a substrate for the modern Türkic languages; it could just be a related, lateral branch of the ancient Türkic language. It could be the agglutinative language of the ancient Basques. Was that Türkic language or not is a matter for the linguists to decide. In any case, it does not affect the discourse and conclusions of the article . Those who find the term “Türkic language” in this context (as a pre-IE language in Europe, employing by R1b bearers 4,500-2,500 years before present, and some later) not acceptable may substitute it with the term “Erbin”, and read on.
....
It is very likely that carriers of R1b1b2 reached Iberia 4,800-4,500 years before present, but then they had passed a “population bottleneck”, and reappeared again (through a few survived DNA-lineages) 3,750 ± 380 years ago. This is when a common ancestor of the present-day Basques lived.
http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm

He seems to rely on “Türkic ethnonymy of ancient European peoples” by Yu. N. Drozdov,2008.
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2012, 09:24:39 AM »

I'm pleased that a study exists that includes Z196.  But the implication that the Z196 of the Basque populated area equals the sum of M153 and SRY2627 seems likely to underestimate the total Z196, by a large factor.  Z209 or Z220 will presumably hit the literature in about another year or so, adding in the NS cluster folks, and the Z196 percentages will go up.  In the meantime, DF27 testing may have made these conversations about Z196 passé, and we can speculate about how much of the P312 (or M269, or whatever subset of R1b) in the Basque country is DF27.  Hint: a lot.

I am really interested in what the totals for DF27 'all' will be.  I imagine its going to be huge in Iberia.  I also would imagine its old too.  It seems to me that DF27 will provide the big primary divide in P312 into two groups and some day a map of that basic divide between DF27 'all' and DF27 ancestral will be very interesting.  Its going to be very interesting to see what remains P312* after DF27 testing and where it is located.

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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 10:04:50 AM »



Theo Vennemann does make the claim that celtic languages, and even germanic languages, show a vasconic substrate in Europa Semitica Europa Vasconica. In addition he cites many toponyms, eg. Basque haran, meaning valley, persisting as aran in places like Val d'Aran, Arundel or Arendal. Also he claims that the vigesimal counting system, ie counting in 20s, four score and ten meaning 90, is vasconic in origin. His critics however nearly always show that some of his claims could also have indo european explanations and, as Basque is known to be influenced by IE, it is not possible to back project Basque to some early version of Vasconic and assume any particular feature was present then and exclusive to Vasconic.
Not only Aran/Arn but also the variant Earn, in the sense of valley and river, adding a good number of Ethonyms, such as Arnsberg, Arnstadt, Arnstein, Arnschwang, Arnstorf, Ahrensfelde in Germany, and as rivers the Earn in Somerset (already a. 762 Earn), earlier name of a tributary of the Isle; the Arno river (Lat. Arnus) in Tuscany and other Italian rivers of the same name; also the Arn in Southern France, the Arne (a. 1066 Arna) in Northern France, and derivates such as Erft (ca. 700 Arnefa)
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Jean M
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2012, 10:35:41 AM »

Anatole defines something called “ancient Türkic” which may not be Turkic as we understand it today.  The point he has is that it is agglutinative and he thinks the Basques ancient language is too.  Is there anything to that?

See Wikipedia: Agglutinative language

Being agglutinative does not mean that there is necessarily a relationship between the languages, as you can easily see from the long list of languages and language families there. The snippet from A.K. seems like one more good reason to read published papers by reputable scholars in their own fields.  
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 10:41:18 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 10:54:33 AM »

I'm pleased that a study exists that includes Z196.  But the implication that the Z196 of the Basque populated area equals the sum of M153 and SRY2627 seems likely to underestimate the total Z196, by a large factor.  Z209 or Z220 will presumably hit the literature in about another year or so, adding in the NS cluster folks, and the Z196 percentages will go up.  In the meantime, DF27 testing may have made these conversations about Z196 passé, and we can speculate about how much of the P312 (or M269, or whatever subset of R1b) in the Basque country is DF27.  Hint: a lot.

Well I was replying to a user that said that Basques have mostly R-Z196 derived(Which is true in case of the French Basques) clades. As for whether part of the R-P312 found in Basques might be a different R-Z196 clade or not, I can’t really say much about it. The same thing applies to the DF27 clade, if you are trying to hint something based on the data from the 1000 Genomes, may I remind you that we are talking about 27 samples from all over Spain, afaik there are regional distributions of the R-P312 subclades in Iberia.  In any case, I agree with you, until further testing is done on the DF27 resolution level, all we can do is speculate.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 10:55:01 AM by JeanLohizun » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 11:02:29 AM »

Anatole defines something called “ancient Türkic” which may not be Turkic as we understand it today.  The point he has is that it is agglutinative and he thinks the Basques ancient language is too.  Is there anything to that?

Anatole's theories require for massive bottlenecks all across Europe, and the idea that using the TMRCA found using his  methodology (Which is heavily biased) somehow tracks migrations has been shown to be erroneous: i.e. He estimated E-V13 to be 2800 ybp, when in fact it is proven to be at least 7000 ybp. Moreover like I said multiple times before, I don't buy into the whole mutation rate contants(There isn't such thing as mutation rate constants).
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 11:03:22 AM by JeanLohizun » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2012, 11:22:43 AM »

Anatole's theories require for massive bottlenecks all across Europe, and the idea that using the TMRCA found using his  methodology (Which is heavily biased) somehow tracks migrations has been shown to be erroneous: i.e. He estimated E-V13 to be 2800 ybp, when in fact it is proven to be at least 7000 ybp. Moreover like I said multiple times before, I don't buy into the whole mutation rate contants(There isn't such thing as mutation rate constants).

JeanLohizun, but weren’t you already JeanL? Anyway the castle of cards of Anatole Klyosov I have broken in pieces already many years ago, and if one looks at his publications in Chemistry and Genealogy and Genetics certainly wouldn’t have dared. I permitted also to broken in pieces all the speculations of Ken Nordtvedt, respectful physics. And now who bet on them are without fathers. To never obey “ad auctoritatem”.
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2012, 11:26:40 AM »

... He estimated E-V13 to be 2800 ybp, when in fact it is proven to be at least 7000 ybp. ....
I don't argue for Klyosov's theories, but I do want to make one point.  It could be true that both E-V13's TMRCA is 2800 ybp and the first E-V13 man was 7000 ybp.

I don't know that if Klyosov's findings are correct or if Anatole's method is correct, but there is a difference between the initial occurrence of an SNP and the Most Recent Common Ancestor for all surviving people for that SNP.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 11:33:31 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2012, 11:28:19 AM »

JeanLohizun, but weren’t you already JeanL? Anyway the castle of cards of Anatole Klyosov I have broken in pieces already many years ago, and if one looks at his publications in Chemistry and Genealogy and Genetics certainly wouldn’t have dared. I permitted also to broken in pieces all the speculations of Ken Nordtvedt, respectful physics. And now who bet on them are without fathers. To never obey “ad auctoritatem”.

Yeah and also JeanLo, that was back when I joined, that there was a glitch with the emails,and I ended up having to create a user name every time I wanted to log in, it got fix. What happened now was that I typed the wrong user name, and the password appears to be the same, I noticed it, after I posted it, but yeah my original account is this one JeanL. Not to be a douche about it, but I'm sincerely wondering, has Klyosov made any publications in Chemistry, because the only thing I've seen is him being a editor for some conference, I haven't yet seen any book published by him.
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2012, 11:31:25 AM »


I don't argue for Klyosov's theories, but I do want to make one point.  It could be true that both E-V13's TMRCA is 2800 ybp and the first E-V13 man was 7000 ybp.

I don't that if Klyosov's findings are correct or if Anatole's method is correct, but there is a difference between the initial occurrence of an SNP and the Most Recent Common Ancestor for all surviving people for that SNP.

Fair enough, but what does it matter then if the TMRCA of all  E-V13 folks Europe is 2800 ybp, if there is solid proof that there was an E-V13 folks living in Spain 7000 ybp. I though all along that the point of using the whole TMRCA methodology was to try to track migrations. So one looks at the TMRCA of all Spanish E-V13 nowadays and we get say 2300 ybp, and then in Greece we get 2800 ybp, so one goes and makes the assumption that all E-V13 men in Spain must descend from Greek colonist who arrived in Iberia sometime around 2300 ybp, but it turns out they may very well be descendants of men who had been in Iberia since 7000 ybp, but it just so happens only one lineage survived.


Moreover there are a long list of assumptions that one takes when calculating the so called TMRCA.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 11:36:36 AM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2012, 11:38:59 AM »

Not to be a douche about it, but I'm sincerely wondering, has Klyosov made any publications in Chemistry, because the only thing I've seen is him being a editor for some conference, I haven't yet seen any book published by him.

If you look at his publications you'll be astonished. He is one of the hardest workers I have ever found in my life, and I have studied writers whose works are collected in 100 volumes: Marx, Lenin, Mazzini, Carducci etc.
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