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Author Topic: U152 - Bell Beakers and Urnfield Tradition in Italy  (Read 1220 times)
Richard Rocca
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« on: April 16, 2012, 04:11:52 PM »

Well folks, after a few years of reading, observing, and gathering information from as many sources as I could get, this is what I've come up with: U152's appearance in Italy is a best fit with the Bell Beaker Culture, especially for two of its main sub-clades Z36 and Z49. The L2 subclade seems to be a better fit for Urnfield and specifically a group called "Rhin-Suisse-France Oriental" or RSFO. I've posted my theory complete with a U152+Bell Beakers map. Here is the link:

http://www.u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59:u152-bell-beakers-and-urnfield-tradition-in-italy&catid=1:latest-news

As always, a friendly and lively debate is welcome. The wording is still a little rough, but if you notice any errors, please send me a PM.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 06:43:08 PM »

Well folks, after a few years of reading, observing, and gathering information from as many sources as I could get, this is what I've come up with: U152's appearance in Italy is a best fit with the Bell Beaker Culture, especially for two of its main sub-clades Z36 and Z49. The L2 subclade seems to be a better fit for Urnfield and specifically a group called "Rhin-Suisse-France Oriental" or RSFO. I've posted my theory complete with a U152+Bell Beakers map. Here is the link:

http://www.u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59:u152-bell-beakers-and-urnfield-tradition-in-italy&catid=1:latest-news

As always, a friendly and lively debate is welcome. The wording is still a little rough, but if you notice any errors, please send me a PM.
Great work, Richard!

You write
Quote from:  Richard Rocca
Early Bell Beakers are thought to have reached Italy from coastal France.

Is this from Lemercier?  What was going on in SE France at the time? I mean, were there conflicts with other Beaker groups, or with others that facilitated the immigration to Cisalpine Gaul?  Was there an attraction?
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 07:15:14 PM »

Well folks, after a few years of reading, observing, and gathering information from as many sources as I could get, this is what I've come up with: U152's appearance in Italy is a best fit with the Bell Beaker Culture, especially for two of its main sub-clades Z36 and Z49. The L2 subclade seems to be a better fit for Urnfield and specifically a group called "Rhin-Suisse-France Oriental" or RSFO. I've posted my theory complete with a U152+Bell Beakers map. Here is the link:

http://www.u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59:u152-bell-beakers-and-urnfield-tradition-in-italy&catid=1:latest-news

As always, a friendly and lively debate is welcome. The wording is still a little rough, but if you notice any errors, please send me a PM.

That was a very enjoyable read, well considered and focussed.  I do however recall the variance in Italy at one stage being described as much lower than north of the Alps.  That would post some problems if U152 is seen a beaker related north of the Alps.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 12:58:02 AM »

Well folks, after a few years of reading, observing, and gathering information from as many sources as I could get, this is what I've come up with: U152's appearance in Italy is a best fit with the Bell Beaker Culture, especially for two of its main sub-clades Z36 and Z49. The L2 subclade seems to be a better fit for Urnfield and specifically a group called "Rhin-Suisse-France Oriental" or RSFO. I've posted my theory complete with a U152+Bell Beakers map. Here is the link:

http://www.u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59:u152-bell-beakers-and-urnfield-tradition-in-italy&catid=1:latest-news

As always, a friendly and lively debate is welcome. The wording is still a little rough, but if you notice any errors, please send me a PM.

That was a very enjoyable read, well considered and focussed.  I do however recall the variance in Italy at one stage being described as much lower than north of the Alps.  That would post some problems if U152 is seen a beaker related north of the Alps.

I've haven't looked at U152 STR variance for a while, but the last I ran the numbers, I think I was coming up with with U152 variance highest in SE France, not Italy, although the Alps themselves or just north as well as just west (SE France) were all candidates.  The one difference is I was getting that L2 has higher diversity in Italy.

Richard, where do  you have L2's diversity as highest?  I don't think there were huge differences.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 09:59:43 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 03:40:34 AM »

RRocca writes: “A Z56+ kit from Spain has the toponoymic surname of  'Corsi' which is clearly Italo-Corsican”.

I am at school now and I am not able to respond deeply, but I’ll do it in the next time.
Certainly I was the first to say that “Corsi” was an Italian surname and to ascribe him to the Italian pool rather than to the Spanish one. But, also in this case, what Rocca says risks to be general, found on nothing.
The Italian surname “Corsi” probably has nothing to do with Corsica, but with the name “Accursio”, “Corso” (see the famous Corso Donati at the Dante’s times). From Corsica derives the surname ”Del Corso”, diffused in my zone, which we pronounce with “ò” but we should pronounce with “ó”. Of course only a paper trail could demonstrate where this surname come from. And about every Rocca’s statement we’d need of specific proofs beyond what he vaguely says.
By watching his map, it seems to me that Italian R-U152 has nothing to do with France, and above all South one, which is in a place of progressively decreasing diffusion. It would seem that this haplogroup is more diffused in that Western zone of Italy like the G2a4 of Ötzi, i.e. where the most ancient Italian haplogroup retired, and I hope nobody wants to support that Ötzi came from Caucasus. This haplogroup, and many others, are mostly and above all Italian ones.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 05:08:09 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 03:54:48 AM »

Corselli, Corselli e Corsello sono tipicamente siciliani, del palermitano e trapanese il primo e del palermitano e agrigentino e del catanese e siracusano il secondo, Corsetti ha un ceppo nel bresciano, uno nell'aretino e nel grossetano, uno tra maceratese e Piceno ed uno tra aquilano, romano, frusinate e latinense, uno nel napoletano ed uno nel palermitano, Corsetto è tipico dell'avellinese, di Serino in particolare, Corsinelli è praticamente unico, Corsi e Corsini sono diffusissimi al centronord, Corsino ha ceppi in Sicilia e nel foggiano, Corso è presente sia al sud che al nord,  Dal Corso ha un grosso ceppo nel veronese ed uno tra padovano e veneziano, derivano tutti, direttamente o tramite ipocoristici più o meno complessi o forme patronimiche, come Dal Corso dove il Dal sta per figlio di, o ipocoristiche, dal nome medioevale Corsus di cui abbiamo un esempio in un atto redatto in Pisa nel 1210: "...elegit et constituit Corsum quondam fratrem Forestani et Garsendam eius uxorem et filiam quondam Bonvassalli Ansoaldi, presentes et suscipientes..." e Corsino citato sempre nel 1200 a Firenze: "...Corsinus comes da Gangalandi dei gratia Vulterranorum potestas...".  Tracce di queste cognominizzazioni le troviamo nel 1600 a Firenze: "...Nerius Corsinus Archiepiscopus Damiatensis Camere Apostolice Thesaurarius Generalis ac Decimarum...Collector Generalis......".
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 05:10:16 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 09:40:41 AM »

Well folks, after a few years of reading, observing, and gathering information from as many sources as I could get, this is what I've come up with: U152's appearance in Italy is a best fit with the Bell Beaker Culture, especially for two of its main sub-clades Z36 and Z49. The L2 subclade seems to be a better fit for Urnfield and specifically a group called "Rhin-Suisse-France Oriental" or RSFO. I've posted my theory complete with a U152+Bell Beakers map. Here is the link:

http://www.u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59:u152-bell-beakers-and-urnfield-tradition-in-italy&catid=1:latest-news

As always, a friendly and lively debate is welcome. The wording is still a little rough, but if you notice any errors, please send me a PM.
Great work, Richard!

You write
Quote from:  Richard Rocca
Early Bell Beakers are thought to have reached Italy from coastal France.

Is this from Lemercier?  What was going on in SE France at the time? I mean, were there conflicts with other Beaker groups, or with others that facilitated the immigration to Cisalpine Gaul?  Was there an attraction?

The earlier beakers are similar to those found along the Mediterranean coast, from Spain to Sicily. Lemercier has proposed this route, but it is an obvious one based on the beaker styles. Afterwards, late Beakers start to resemble those from Central Europe.

There would be three main attractions: The Po Valley has always been very fertile, there were well documented metal deposits from Liguria to Tuscany to Slovenia, and northern and central Italy offer the easiest access to the Adriatic and trade with the east.

I have not done a deep dive into variance since the discovery of the Z-series SNPs. There are still too few tested people to really come up with anything concrete.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 09:47:41 AM »

Corselli, Corselli e Corsello sono tipicamente siciliani, del palermitano e trapanese il primo e del palermitano e agrigentino e del catanese e siracusano il secondo, Corsetti ha un ceppo nel bresciano, uno nell'aretino e nel grossetano, uno tra maceratese e Piceno ed uno tra aquilano, romano, frusinate e latinense, uno nel napoletano ed uno nel palermitano, Corsetto è tipico dell'avellinese, di Serino in particolare, Corsinelli è praticamente unico, Corsi e Corsini sono diffusissimi al centronord, Corsino ha ceppi in Sicilia e nel foggiano, Corso è presente sia al sud che al nord,  Dal Corso ha un grosso ceppo nel veronese ed uno tra padovano e veneziano, derivano tutti, direttamente o tramite ipocoristici più o meno complessi o forme patronimiche, come Dal Corso dove il Dal sta per figlio di, o ipocoristiche, dal nome medioevale Corsus di cui abbiamo un esempio in un atto redatto in Pisa nel 1210: "...elegit et constituit Corsum quondam fratrem Forestani et Garsendam eius uxorem et filiam quondam Bonvassalli Ansoaldi, presentes et suscipientes..." e Corsino citato sempre nel 1200 a Firenze: "...Corsinus comes da Gangalandi dei gratia Vulterranorum potestas...".  Tracce di queste cognominizzazioni le troviamo nel 1600 a Firenze: "...Nerius Corsinus Archiepiscopus Damiatensis Camere Apostolice Thesaurarius Generalis ac Decimarum...Collector Generalis......".

Interesting, but don't think a first name of "Corsus" from Pisa has a link to Corsica, where the very translation of "Corsican" is spelled "Corsu"? Any surname derived from it would have changed to more local variants ending in 'o' or 'i'.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 10:17:03 AM »

Interesting, but don't think a first name of "Corsus" from Pisa has a link to Corsica, where the very translation of "Corsican" is spelled "Corsu"? Any surname derived from it would have changed to more local variants ending in 'o' or 'i'.
As I have said, I think that the unique surname which may be linked to Corsica is “Del Corso” if pronounced “Del Còrso”, because an inhabitant of Corsica is a “Còrso”, whereas the name “Corso” is pronounced /córso/. The Italian surname Corsi is diffused overall in Italy and we couldn’t know its origin without a paper trail. But there is another question which could give  breath to the Celtists/Germanists. As we see from the most ancient documents, many of these persons get a Lombard origin: the brother of Corso is named Forestano (Latin names), but Forestano’s wife is named Garsenda (Lombard name), who is the daughter of Ansoaldo (Lombard name). Corsino is count of Gangalandi (toponym of Lombard origin).
Of course we’d want to know how many of these people are of Lombard origin or took only a Lombard name.
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Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 10:22:54 AM »

Interesting, but don't think a first name of "Corsus" from Pisa has a link to Corsica, where the very translation of "Corsican" is spelled "Corsu"? Any surname derived from it would have changed to more local variants ending in 'o' or 'i'.
As I have said, I think that the unique surname which may be linked to Corsica is “Del Corso” if pronounced “Del Còrso”, because an inhabitant of Corsica is a “Còrso”, whereas the name “Corso” is pronounced /córso/. The Italian surname Corsi is diffused overall in Italy and we couldn’t know its origin without a paper trail. But there is another question which could give  breath to the Celtists/Germanists. As we see from the most ancient documents, many of these persons get a Lombard origin: the brother of Corso is named Forestano (Latin names), but Forestano’s wife is named Garsenda (Lombard name), who is the daughter of Ansoaldo (Lombard name). Corsino is count of Gangalandi (toponym of Lombard origin).
Of course we’d want to know how many of these people are of Lombard origin or took only a Lombard name.


Fair enough. The "Corsi" surname link with Corsica is too speculative, so I'll remove it.
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 12:13:48 PM »

I think there is a pretty good case that U152 initially entered Italy before Celtic had emerged as a separate language from Italic.  I always have gotten the impression that Italic is closer to the IE root than Celtic and that it was Celtic that took a further step away from the roots. Kind of gives me the impression that the common root was italic-like and Celtic developed later from it in some contact network north (not sure how far north) of the Alps  I might be wrong with that but its the impression I get.  Lucitanian in Portugal seems to be considered such an Italic-like dialect.  My feeling is that from an Italic-like root the west Med. network kept to the root while to the north of it in an area possibly centred on NW France I think Celtic emerged in the post-beaker Bronze Age networks of that area. 
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