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Author Topic: Where did Germanic languages expand from? How about U106?  (Read 8015 times)
GoldenHind
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« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2012, 05:38:18 PM »

How do we know that they didn't?  As I recall a study of the teeth of Bronze Age remains in England (originally mentioned by Jean if my memory is correct) showed they likely came from Scandinavia.

Selective memory at work there! I blogged about the study of a group of burials on the Isle of Thanet. The team used isotopic analysis to find out where these people came from. Of the 22 skeletons tested, eight were local, seven were from Scandinavia, probably southern Sweden or Norway, five were from South-West Iberia and the origins of the remaining two could not be identified. Interestingly the earliest phase (Late Bronze) was the most mixed: local, Norse and Iberian. In the Early Iron Age the mixture was local and Iberian. The Middle Iron Age mixed local and Norse. 

I would guess that the Isle of Thanet was a trading post.

Thanks, that is the study to which I referred.  Pardon me if it appeared I was suggesting the analysis showed all the remains were from Scandinavia, as opposed to a large portion of them. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but perhaps should have been more precise.
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Jean M
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« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2012, 05:45:00 PM »

For anyone with a serious interest in the origins of Germanic, there is Donald Ringe, From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic: A Linguistic History of English: Volume I (OUP Oxford 6 Nov 2006), which you can dip into on Amazon. There is a length review of it on Linguist List. One interesting point:

Quote
The concluding chapter, Proto-Germanic, begins with an introduction to the family of Proto-Germanic language sub-families: East Germanic and Northwest Germanic, which is further divided into North Germanic and West Germanic. In defense of his position that North and West Germanic shared a common ancestor, Ringe goes out on a bit of a limb and says, ''In my opinion the number of significant innovations which North and West Germanic unarguably share, though admittedly small, is large enough to justify positing such a unity. By contrast, the innovations shared by East and North Germanic are extremely few and can have resulted from parallel development, while those supposedly shared by East Germanic and the more southerly dialects of West Germanic are actually shared retentions which prove nothing. That North Germanic is itself a unitary subgroup is completely obvious, as all its dialects shared a long series of innovations, some of them very striking".


« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 06:09:31 PM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2012, 05:51:09 PM »

Pardon me if it appeared I was suggesting the analysis showed all the remains were from Scandinavia, as opposed to a large portion of them. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but perhaps should have been more precise.

I know that it was the Scandinavian input that really caught your eye! And it is interesting. But for me it is the combination of Iberian and Norse that is really striking, especially if these burials were of an extended family, as has been argued. It really shows the long-distance network created by Bell Beaker. 
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authun
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« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2012, 06:15:23 PM »

Can linguists tell if Germanic languages have more in common, base-wise (not word borrowing), with Celtic languages versus Balto-Slavic languages?

Celtic / germanic contact is recent and german appears to get its iron technology related words from celtic, cf, gaulish isarna and german eisen. They don't use latin ferro for example. Archaeologically, this fits in with early iron weapons, celtic first and then german made copies of celtic weapons, adapted though to have larger hand grips etc. Same happens with later roman weapons. Probably, the germanic speakers learned iron working from their celtic neighbours.

Before that, it was a long time before people who were to become celtic speakers had contact with people who were to become germanic speakers. According to some linguists, the pre sami and pre finnic languages borrowed words from pre germanic languages, eg ruovdi, north sami for iron. The root of ruovdi is the same as gives us our word for red. It is from a word which pre germanic speakers used to describe the redish bog iron lumps and is thus only indirectly related to iron in germanic languages:

SaaN ruovdi ‘iron’ (~ Finn. rauta id.) < PS *ruovte < PreS *rawta < PGerm
*raudan- (> Old Norse rauði ‘bog iron ore’) (SSA s.v. rauta)

Some of these words appear in baltic or russian so it is unclear as to where these contact zones were, or the precise order of the contacts, ie who came first. Aikio attempts to date some of the contacts in "On Germanic-Saami contacts and Saami prehistory", http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/aikio.pdf but they are complex linguistic arguments and beyond me I'm afraid. The paper includes some baltic borrowings into finnic and sami.
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A.D.
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« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2012, 10:01:59 AM »

would religion shed any light on the subject? The Greeks, Celts and Germans and others sheared a similar pantheon with different names. The Germans and Celts seem closer in deities but the Celts had Druids (there has been questions as to their role in Celtic society) and the Germans Shamans. I associate the Druids closer to the Temple building West and south and the Rural Shamans with the North and East very crudely. So
 1 was the religion ,names and language already there and adopted and modified by IE, PIE,,etc?
2 Did IE etc bring the religion and adopt pre-existing practices name and so on?
I know the Achaean (linear B) word for cow is the same  is the same as the Irish and Scots the Latin is similar I don't Know about German. 
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authun
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« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2012, 11:21:59 AM »

The spread of religion is connected but not necessarily in a direct way. Christianity in western europe didn't come with a massive population movement. Additionally, different religions can hold different names at different levels of importance, eg Jesus Christ is, in Islam, a man, a prophet whereas to Christians Christ is the revalation of God on this earth. Tracking Teshub, Taranis and Thor is therefore not a straightforward process and enough difficulties exist between Wodan and Odin for people to have very different views.
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Heber
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« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2012, 03:13:57 PM »

Did religion come first and then agriculture?

The New Yorker had an interesting article entitled The Sanctuary, about Gobelki Tepe, by Elif Batuman in their December edition.

"Its Turkish name is Göbekli Tepe. It’s estimated to be eleven thousand years old—six and a half thousand years older than the Great Pyramid, about a half thousand years older than the walls of Jericho. The site comprises more than sixty multi-ton T-shaped limestone pillars, most of them engraved with bas-reliefs of dangerous animals. It’s believed to have been built by hunter-gatherers, who used it as a religious sanctuary. Formal religion is supposed to have appeared only after agriculture
The findings at Göbekli Tepe suggest that we have the story backward—that it was actually the need to build a sacred site that first obliged the hunter-gatherers to organize themselves as a workforce, to secure a stable food supply, and eventually to invent agriculture."

"Jared Diamond, the author of “Guns, Germs, and Steel,” considers agriculture to be not just a setback but “the worst mistake in the history of the human race.” In 2006, a cover article in Der Spiegel proposed Göbekli Tepe as the historical site of the Garden of Eden. The theory draws much of its power from a reading of the Fall as an allegory for the shift from hunting-and-gathering to farming."

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/12/19/111219fa_fact_batuman

"Gobelki Tepe is the oldest known example of monumental architecture—the first structure human beings put together that was bigger and more complicated than a hut. When these pillars were erected, so far as we know, nothing of comparable scale existed in the world."

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text


That area is a desert now unable to support agriculture. At the time it was considered a paradise (Garden of Edan) for hunter gatherers and later farmers. Perhaps is was overfarmed or it is due to climate change.
Here is a link to another commentator which gives further insights into the article:
http://plasticbeatitude.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/the-findings-at-gobekli-tepe-suggest-we-have-the-story-backward/
My question is, when they buried the monuments 8K years ago and moved on, where did these Megalithic builders go to next? The Atlantic Facade?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith
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A.D.
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« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2012, 04:56:59 PM »

I heard about this too, it's interesting the people who built it must have come from far and wide and been able to communicate complex ideas from the start. So did they have a common language at the start develop one?If so did it die out spread or what? Could it even had any bearing on what languages came latter?  I think this also adds weight to the theory that Carnac (Brittany) was built by Mesolithic hunter/gatherers. In fact the term  Mesolithic hunter/gatherers may be inaccurate. 
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Heber
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« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2012, 07:03:00 PM »

My understanding is that the building of Gobekli Tepe started in the Mesolithic and the pressure to feed the large numbers of pilgrims developed an embryonic form of agriculture. The earliest forms of domesticated grain was found nearby. Gobekli Tepe is on the northern edge of the fertile crescent.

"Over time, Schmidt believes, the need to acquire sufficient food for those who worked and gathered for ceremonies at Göbekli Tepe may have led to the intensive cultivation of wild cereals and the creation of some of the first domestic strains. Indeed, scientists now believe that one center of agriculture arose in southern Turkey—well within trekking distance of Göbekli Tepe—at exactly the time the temple was at its height. Today the closest known wild ancestors of modern einkorn wheat are found on the slopes of Karaca Dağ, a mountain just 60 miles northeast of Göbekli Tepe."

From a DNA point of view, Dienekes positions his "Womb of Nations" centred on the prehistoric site of Gobekli Tepe.

"The Neolithic of West Eurasia started, by most accounts, c. 12 thousand years ago. Its origin was in the area framed by the Armenian Plateau in the north, the Anatolian Plateau in the west, the Zagros Range in the east, and the lowlands of southern Mesopotamia and the Levant in the south. Intriguingly, the prehistoric site of Göbekli Tepe sits right at the center of this important area, in eastern Anatolia/northern Mesopotamia.
If there is a candidate for where the ur-population that became the modern Six lived, the early Neolithic of the Near East is surely it. This hypothesis makes the most sense chronologically, archaeologically, genetically, and geographically."

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2011/12/womb-of-nations-how-west-eurasians-came.html




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Bren123
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« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2012, 04:04:22 PM »


I am no expert but it was for long held that Germanic especially displays some sort of non-IE substrate.


Would it be possible for you to give examples?
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« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2012, 06:03:55 PM »

Would it be possible for you to give examples?

You can see an overview on the wiki page on the German Substrate Hypothesis, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis and there are some references at the bottom.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2012, 09:41:19 AM »

Anyone else think that U106 could have been in the Pomeranian culture which ultimately led to its entrance into the Proto-Germanic group? A corallery could be that the dialects of IE that U106 spoke influenced the formation of Germanic languages.

The predecessor to the Pomeranian culture is the Lusatian culture. Lusatian is stretches (or perhaps originates) to the east, almost into Cucuteni-Trypolae territory.

Bright green on the map>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KulturaLuzycka_1.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

On this map> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CuTryOutline.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

The Corded Ware based Trziniec Culture preceded Lusatian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

This would fit David Anthony's proposals in "The Horse The Wheel and Language" on p.360
Quote from: David Anthony
I would say that this was how the Proto-Indo-European dialects that would ultimately form the root of the Pre-Germanic first became established in central Europe: they spread up the Dniester from the Usatovo culture through a nested series of patrons and clients, and eventually were spoken in some of the late TRB communities between the Dniester and Vistula. These late TRB communities later evolved into early Corded Ware communities, and it was the Corded Ware horizon that provided the medium through which the Pre-Germanic dialects spread over a wider area.

Unfortunately, few of us (at least me) don't have a great grasp across all of the new subclades by haplogroup. I'm convinced we could connect a few more dots if we did.

Jean M posted some remarks from Ken Nordtvedt on her "Story of I" article.  She was referring to this from Rootsweb.
Quote from: Ken Nordtvedt
I1-AS1 is the bulk of L338+ and probably is the most Netherlands-oriented clade I have ever seen. But its companion I1-AS8, also L338+ has members with origins somewhat more to the east --- perhaps Pomerania would be a fair description of its center of gravity. Given the 2000 year age for both these clades, coupled with the geography, my guess is that the expansion of these clades is associated with what came to be known as the Saxon peoples

Perhaps I1-AS8 and L338 were integrated with U106 in the Pomeranian culture (now Poland) before merging into or initiating the Jastorf culture... then moving at a fairly late time into Low Countries and the upper Jutland before jumping across to England and up to the Scandinavian Peninsula.
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« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2012, 03:29:15 AM »

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 03:30:03 AM by Arwunbee » Logged

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authun
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« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2012, 02:50:51 PM »

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

Germanic language and culture builds up somewhere in the north and then expands southwards during the migration period. The interesting question has always been where in the north did it develop, and at what time?

In Scandinavia for example we have the rock art of the pastoralists, showing reindeer herds for example, here with fences,



Later, this rock art records the arrival of new peoples, by boats, who use axes and chariots and who are sun worshippers;



The question is, are these people the people who later developed into speakers of the germanic language and, if so, where did they come from or were they later overun by germanic speakers from Jastorf?

Given Tacitus' comment that Germania was not the homeland of the Germani and that they arrived there by boat, I tend to think that the germanic language developed in Scandinavia and migrated south. Where those people in the bronze age came from, is a separate question, not from Jastorf though, in my opinion.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2012, 03:58:22 PM »

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

Germanic language and culture builds up somewhere in the north and then expands southwards during the migration period. The interesting question has always been where in the north did it develop, and at what time?

In Scandinavia for example we have the rock art of the pastoralists, showing reindeer herds for example, here with fences,



Later, this rock art records the arrival of new peoples, by boats, who use axes and chariots and who are sun worshippers;



The question is, are these people the people who later developed into speakers of the germanic language and, if so, where did they come from or were they later overun by germanic speakers from Jastorf?

Given Tacitus' comment that Germania was not the homeland of the Germani and that they arrived there by boat, I tend to think that the germanic language developed in Scandinavia and migrated south. Where those people in the bronze age came from, is a separate question, not from Jastorf though, in my opinion.

There are well documented similarities with the Valcamonica rock art from northern Italy. Boats, sun worshipers, weapons, deer, etc. all there. Always of interest to me, look at page 153 in this Valcamonica document:

http://unicatt.academia.edu/AngeloEugenioFossati/Papers/659220/Valcamonica_a_world_heritage_view

That is none other than the stag-god "Cernunnos", also of Gundestrup cauldron fame.
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Arwunbee
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« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2012, 07:14:41 PM »

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

My question was referring to the premise behind the scenario put forth by previous poster Mike.www.com, who said this about a merged I1/U106 Jastorf people:

"moving at a fairly late time into Low Countries and the upper Jutland before jumping across to England and up to the Scandinavian Peninsula."

So I repeat my question, to www.mike.com:

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

During the volkswagen movements I thought there was a general push from southern Scandinavia towards the south; not from the north German plain to southern Scandinavia.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 07:26:57 PM by Arwunbee » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2012, 07:43:49 PM »

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

My question was referring to the premise behind the scenario put forth by previous poster Mike.www.com, who said this about a merged I1/U106 Jastorf people:

"moving at a fairly late time into Low Countries and the upper Jutland before jumping across to England and up to the Scandinavian Peninsula."

So I repeat my question, to www.mike.com:

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

During the volkswagen movements I thought there was a general push from southern Scandinavia towards the south; not from the north German plain to southern Scandinavia.

I think the Volkswagen movements all occurred in the 20th century.
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A.D.
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« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2012, 08:15:56 PM »

Haven't Iron-age cities been discovered been discovered in the Eastern part of Germania? These must surely have had an effect on language due to more communication. It may have more to do with the differences between West and East Germanic rather than origin.
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« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2012, 11:46:37 PM »

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

No, what is being discussed is where did the germanic language originate, in Scandinavia or in Jastorf? Either of these popular hypotheses predate the later movements.

My question was referring to the premise behind the scenario put forth by previous poster Mike.www.com, who said this about a merged I1/U106 Jastorf people:

"moving at a fairly late time into Low Countries and the upper Jutland before jumping across to England and up to the Scandinavian Peninsula."

So I repeat my question, to www.mike.com:

So, trying to understand here, you say there was a roughly simultaneous movement of a U106/I1 group from Jastorf:

> SW to England; and
> N to Scandinavia?

During the volkswagen movements I thought there was a general push from southern Scandinavia towards the south; not from the north German plain to southern Scandinavia.

I don't know what really happened. I'm just speculating. 

U106 is as young (less diverse STR-wise) in Scandinavia as it is in England. Meanwhile U106 is older looking (more diverse) to the east of modern Germany, along the northern plains to the Baltic in places like Lithuania and old Pomerania (now Poland.)

So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture. Later the descendants of Jastorf expanded north up the Jutland into Scandinavia as well as west into the Low Countries and then to England.  This happened at about the same time.


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« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2012, 04:11:26 AM »

Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture.

Jastorf beings around 700 BC?  U106 is about 4000 years old?  So the corollary of your supposition is that U106 was contained east of the Oder River for its first 1300 years?  And that lines up with variance figures?

Quote
Later the descendants of Jastorf expanded north up the Jutland into Scandinavia as well as west into the Low Countries and then to England.  This happened at about the same time.

Are there any historical or archaelogical sources that show a simultaneous movement of people out of the Jastorf area:

West to the Low Countries & England;
and
North to Scandinavia

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« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2012, 04:51:26 AM »

I think the Volkswagen movements all occurred in the 20th century.

Volkswagen was just a more efficient development of Völkerwanderung.
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authun
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« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2012, 05:14:01 AM »

There are well documented similarities with the Valcamonica rock art from northern Italy. Boats, sun worshipers, weapons, deer, etc. all there. Always of interest to me, look at page 153 in this Valcamonica document:

http://unicatt.academia.edu/AngeloEugenioFossati/Papers/659220/Valcamonica_a_world_heritage_view

That is none other than the stag-god "Cernunnos", also of Gundestrup cauldron fame.

This type of data does require better a better explanation than just 'contacts'. There are many examples. If you look at figure 18, the warrior with the La Tene type shield, it is probably very similar to the sheilds found at Hjortspring,



http://www.hjortspring.dk/wold/shields.htm

Regarding the stag helmet however, the situation is made more complicated by the fact that it formed part of a religious ceromony/rite for thousands of years, as evidenced by the Star Carr mask,



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« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2012, 10:27:52 AM »

Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
So the supposition is that U106 may have met folks (such as I1, R1a1, P312*) from Scandinavia just south of the Jutland to form the Jastorf culture.

Jastorf beings around 700 BC?  U106 is about 4000 years old?  So the corollary of your supposition is that U106 was contained east of the Oder River for its first 1300 years?  And that lines up with variance figures?

Remember, this is all just a speculative inquiry but it is based on STR diversity being higher in Poland than Germany and being similar in both England and Scandinavia.   Scandinavian U106 does not look old.

Yes, there is a corollary that U106 was not in the Jutland or at the neck of the Jutland or points west or north, to any significant degree, prior to the Jastorf expansion.  It could have been either east or south.  I don't know which. That's not too hard to imagine, if you think the R-L11 family (L11*, U106, P312) originated in SE Europe, the Steppes or SW Asia.

Quote from: Mikewww link=topic=10503.msg129419#msg129419
Later the descendants of Jastorf expanded north up the Jutland into Scandinavia as well as west into the Low Countries and then to England.  This happened at about the same time.

Are there any historical or archaelogical sources that show a simultaneous movement of people out of the Jastorf area:
West to the Low Countries & England; and
North to Scandinavia

I think the movement of people into the Low Countries and over into England (the Anglo-Saxon Era) is pretty well documented.

I don't know much about migrations south to north in the Jutland Peninsula, if there were any, or from Denmark across the straits to the Scandinavian Peninsula.
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« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2012, 11:12:34 AM »

I don't know much about migrations south to north in the Jutland Peninsula, if there were any, or from Denmark across the straits to the Scandinavian Peninsula.

If you look at the distribution of these bronze age griffzungen swords, it shows the distribution into Skane in Sweden:


http://www.cpt.co.uk/jutland/GriffzungenSwords.jpg
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« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2012, 01:32:15 PM »

I think the Volkswagen movements all occurred in the 20th century.

Volkswagen was just a more efficient development of Völkerwanderung.

I think the Panzerkampfwagen was more likely than the Volkswagen to have been designed to promote the more recent Völkerwanderungen. In the end it didn't work out too well. 
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