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Author Topic: Micro-geographic distribution of Y-chromosomal variation in the central-western  (Read 455 times)
JeanL
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« on: April 06, 2012, 01:23:33 PM »

This is somewhat of an "old" study (i.e. Published back in October, 2010) but I think it gives some interesting insights as to the history of R1b in Belgium.

Here is the link to the study: Micro-geographic distribution of Y-chromosomal variation in the central-western European region Brabant

This is an excerpt from the study which is found on page-2

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Median joining networks for all haplogroups and the main subhaplogroups were constructed based on all 25 single-copy YSTRs by NETWORK 4.5.1.0. [17] (http://www.fluxus-engineering.-com) using the weighting scheme described by Qamar et al. [18] due to different mutation rates among the markers. To estimate the time to the most recent common ancestor (tMRCA) of the main subhaplogroups, we used all 25 single-copy Y-STRs and applied the average square distance (ASD) method [19], where the ancestral haplotype was assumed to be the haplotype carrying the most frequent allele at each microsatellite locus. We employed a microsatellite evolutionary effective mutation rate based on the observed father-to-son transmissions of all used microsatellites according to Vermeulen et al. [2] and using the correction of Zhivotovsky et al. [20]. The tMRCA estimates and  confidence intervals (CI) were calculated with the software Ytime v.2.08 [21].

Then on supplementary table S3 they provide the following TMRCA for the different haplogroups found:

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Table S3 The estimates of the time to the most recent common ancestor (tMRCA) of the main subhaplogroups based on all individuals in Brabant and with a generation time of 25 and 35 years. T (generations), tMRCA in generations; T (years), tMRCA in years; C.I., 95% confidence interval.



http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Table-S3.jpg

Under the assumption that TMRCA=time of arrival of a single men bearing that haplogroup to the region(Highly speculative IMO), it seems both R-U152 and I-M223 arrived around the same time, but it seems the one that arrived the earliest was G-P15, which is oddly the haplogroup that has been found in majority proportions in samples from Avellaner(sic), Catalonia and Treilles, France. What do you guys think R-P312*(Maybe R-L21?) is made up here, it seems to be much younger than R-U106 and R-U152, R-M17* appears to have arrived contemporary with  R-U106. Any plausible scenarios that would have haplogroups G-P15* as the earliest arrival, then I-M223* and R-U152 arriving simultaneously, then R-M17* along with R-U106, then R-P312*(R-L21??) and finally R-M253*, and E-V13.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 01:28:14 PM by JeanL » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2012, 01:50:05 PM »

Unfortunately that paper wasn’t for free, but I look at it and understood that its purpose was how the migration of people within Belgium did change the Y asset. I noted that at the beginning the haplogroups upstream R-P312 weren’t present there, but after some R1b1* appeared etc. I asked myself where they did come from. It would be interesting to investigate the place from where they came and if they were immigrants from elsewhere. About 10% of population is now of Italian origin.
Of course your calculations don’t enjoy the other Jean, that feminine, and I hope that this time she doesn’t raise  any question of  genus.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

GoldenHind
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2012, 03:12:32 PM »

What do you guys think R-P312*(Maybe R-L21?) is made up here, it seems to be much younger than R-U106 and R-U152, R-M17* appears to have arrived contemporary with  R-U106. Any plausible scenarios that would have haplogroups G-P15* as the earliest arrival, then I-M223* and R-U152 arriving simultaneously, then R-M17* along with R-U106, then R-P312*(R-L21??) and finally R-M253*, and E-V13.


Since the only P312 subclade included in this study is U152, one could only guess at the composition of what they characterize as P312*. I would expect L21, some type of Z196, DF19 and some variety of what is still classified as P312* all to be present.

What I find very interesting is the suggestion that U106 arrived there earlier than what they classify as P312*, which is the reverse of the generally accepted scenario.
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razyn
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 05:02:07 PM »

Aren't these age estimates seriously on the long side?  Is it the ghost of Zhivotovsky or something?  I haven't looked at the actual paper, but did open that Photobucket link.
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JeanL
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 05:24:46 PM »

Aren't these age estimates seriously on the long side?  Is it the ghost of Zhivotovsky or something?  I haven't looked at the actual paper, but did open that Photobucket link.

This is what they said:

Quote
We employed a microsatellite evolutionary effective mutation rate based on the observed father-to-son transmissions of all used microsatellites according to Vermeulen et al. [2] and using the correction of Zhivotovsky et al. [20]. The tMRCA estimates and  confidence intervals (CI) were calculated with the software Ytime v.2.08 [21].

Here is the paper they used to gather the effective mutation rates:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312386/

And they applied the correction of Zhivotovsky et al.2006, whatever that means. The point here, is that whether one believes in a linear mutation model (I don’t buy into the mutation constant), be the effective mutation rate 6.24*10-4 or 2.11*10-3, the variance of G-P15 is greater than R-U152, at the same time R-U152 is about the same as I-M223*, followed by R-U106, followed by R-M17*, followed by R-P312* (Possibly an amalgam of R-L21, R-Z196, DF19), followed by I-M253*, and finally E-V13. Now I see if that we assume the idea that TMRCA are somewhat associated with time of arrival of a haplogroup to a region (Again I don’t believe that), what we see in this region of Belgium is that I-M223* folks are pretty contemporary, if not a big younger than R-U152. Anyone has any explanation for that?  
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 05:27:17 PM by JeanL » Logged
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