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eochaidh
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« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2012, 12:49:23 PM »

Eochaidh,
Here is an interesting account of your Taafes in Czech and Austria.
One of my ancestors from Clogher in Ireland obtained his doctorate in Prague University in the 13th century, after studies in Wurzburg. He returned there many time afterwards. There were many exchanges between Ireland and the continent using the established network of safe monastic settlements. Many of these monastic schools evolved into some of the great universities and colleges on the continent, including Salamanca, Seville, Madrid, Alcala,  Santiago de Compostela, Lisbon, Louvain, Antwerp, Tournai, Douai, Lille, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Nantes, Poitiers and Paris. Many others became embryonic centres for developing towns for example, Koln, Wurzburg, Salzburg, St Gallen, Bobbio, etc.

"There were various Irish settlements in the Great Moravian Empire of the 7th and 8th centuries. For the most part, these settlements were established by Irish monks and priests who helped spread Christianity in the region. At that time, continental Europe was mired in the Dark Ages and Ireland, thanks in part to its geographical isolation, was a beacon of Christian learning, which produced a number of missionaries who helped reinvigorate the Christian faith abroad.
Religion was also behind the most well known Czech-Irish connection. Fleeing religious persecution, Irish Franciscan monks set up a monastery here in Prague's new town in the 17th century. Their cloister was a centre of learning for nearly two centuries. The street on which the monastery was situated is still called Hybernska to this day, which comes from Hibernia, the Latin name for Ireland. Legend has it that the Irish Franciscans also introduced the potato to the Czech lands....
Besides the Irish Franciscans, many of the Irish nobility (Wild Geese) who were displaced by the English in the 1600s, also settled in what is now the Czech Republic. Their most famous descendant was Eduard Taafe, who was prime minister of Austria in the 1890s. Irish mercenary soldiers are also said to have been responsible for the assassination of Count Wallenstein, who was the last Czech pretender to the Bohemian crown before the Hapsburgs managed to consolidate their power here."
Thank you for that, Heber.
I know Eduard Taaffe was about third generation on the Continent. I don't know if any of my direct Taaffe family married on the Continent and then returned to Ireland, but there is no doubt that I share DNA with people in the Czech Republic, Austria and Hungary from my Taaffe family. Also, if a DF23+ shows up in The Netherlands who is a close match to me, I'm pulling out my Theodoro Keogh card!  :)
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
A.D.
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2012, 08:59:36 PM »

One thing that bothers me is if dendrochronology shows depopulation re-forestation  600-300 BC we would expect to see some traces or side effects in Scotland. I don't know of anything e.g a southward movement in population. As for Bronze-age movement and artifacts there have been Bronze-age Nordic shields and Barbary ape skulls (well 1) found in Ireland. There has also been a Bronze-age  Irishman's skeleton found in Scotland  (JeanM knows a lot about this I believe she posted about it last year) so I think there was plenty of opportunity the spread of DNA both ways in and out of Ireland. There is also a theory that The Iron-Age in Britain and Ireland had an isolationist phase in comparison to the Bronze-age society was far more localized.
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Jean M
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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2012, 05:18:46 AM »

One thing that bothers me is if dendrochronology shows depopulation re-forestation  600-300 BC we would expect to see some traces or side effects in Scotland.

Petra Dark, Climate deterioration and land-use change in the first millennium BC: perspectives from the British palynological record, Journal of Archaeological Science, vol. 33, no. 10 (October 2006), pp. 1381-1395. Abstract:

Climate deterioration at around the time of the Bronze Age/Iron Age transition has for long been argued to have resulted in upland abandonment in northern and western Britain, and recent research has provided evidence that a major climate downturn from 850 cal BC caused settlement abandonment in western Europe and potentially worldwide. It is, however, unclear to what extent only ‘marginal’ sites were affected, due to the lack of any systematic attempt to view the evidence for settlement and land-use change across a range of landscape types with differing sensitivities to environmental change. This paper addresses this issue by an evaluation of 75 pollen sequences spanning the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age in Britain to assess whether climatic deterioration was sufficient to cause widespread land abandonment. The results provide no evidence for wholesale land-use change at this time; the overall picture is one of continuity of land use or even increased agricultural activity. There are, however, hints of regional variability, with a greater tendency to abandonment of upland areas in Wales, and signs of woodland regeneration in agriculturally productive areas of lowland central  southern England. The latter pattern may reflect a combination of rising ground-water levels affecting local land-use in the immediate vicinity of the mires which provide the source of the pollen data, against a backdrop of regional-scale social and economic changes at the Bronze Age-Iron Age transition.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 05:21:20 AM by Jean M » Logged
A.D.
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« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2012, 12:17:44 PM »

Does that mean that there was movement but not far e.g up and down the local hill? Nothing remarkable? Also am I right in thinking  that pastoralism is less affected by climate change and at in the Bronze-Age domestic cattle were grazed not fed by agricultural produce.
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Jean M
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« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2012, 08:43:39 AM »

Petra Dark's paper was the only relevant one that I had immediately to hand. I don't think that it tells the whole tale. Amesbury 2008 shows the abandonment of land on Dartmoor with a cooler climate in the Late Bronze Age. More to the point, much of northern Britain shared the pattern in Ireland of an impoverished and aceramic Iron Age. It's hard to believe that the population didn't fall, though it was replenished by incomers from the Continent in phases lasting right up to the Roman Conquest.  
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Jean M
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« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2012, 01:04:56 PM »

I think so, but as I say above, I don't have an easy answer. Still looking.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 01:05:16 PM by Jean M » Logged
Bren123
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« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2012, 07:08:18 PM »

Petra Dark's paper was the only relevant one that I had immediately to hand. I don't think that it tells the whole tale. Amesbury 2008 shows the abandonment of land on Dartmoor with a cooler climate in the Late Bronze Age. More to the point, much of northern Britain shared the pattern in Ireland of an impoverished and aceramic Iron Age. It's hard to believe that the population didn't fall, though it was replenished by incomers from the Continent in phases lasting right up to the Roman Conquest.  

Did these incomers also arrive in parts of Southern Britain?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 07:08:51 PM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
Jean M
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« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2012, 08:33:15 AM »

Did these incomers also arrive in parts of Southern Britain?

Incomers seem to have arrived in various parts of Britain at various times, but certainly the south was the main point of ingress from the Continent and received most waves - from Hallstat through to being swamped with Belgae from about 125 BC. The Hallstatt Culture spread into Lowland Britain by 600 BC. It reached as far north as the Forth-Clyde line. La Tène metalwork styles are widely distributed in Britain and often have close Continental parallels. The clearest cases for migration earlier than that of the Belgae can be made for two tribes of the north notable for La Tène material, including chariot burials: the Votadini and Parisii.

You can find details on Celtic tribes of the British Isles
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