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NealtheRed
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« on: April 06, 2012, 11:54:29 AM »

This may have been mentioned before, but I have been considering it for some time - at least in reference to Z255 and other subclades of L21. Can any of these be associated with La Tene-era movements in Britain and Ireland?

Notable is the fact that subclades like Z253, M222, and Z255 can all be found in areas associated with the spread of La Tene culture (Southern Germany, Switzerland, etc.). I want to explore the possibility that one or more of these subclades has origins in La Tene.
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Jean M
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2012, 12:29:38 PM »

I have suggested that M222  may reflect the arrival of La Tène in Ireland. See Uí Néill.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2012, 12:48:53 PM »

I have suggested that M222  may reflect the arrival of La Tène in Ireland. See Uí Néill.

I can only speak for Z255 since I know its distribution off-hand, but it is also found in many of the places where one finds M222. A major difference is that Z255 (and L159.2) is more frequent in Leinster than in other places in Ireland.

There are clusters of Z255 in Norway and the German Rhineland, although the former can most likely be explained by historical movements. The Rhenish ones though, I am curious if the connection to the Isles goes back to La Tene times, much like you suggest with M222.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 12:49:35 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 11:28:27 AM »

Part of the issue here is that any large scale studies (busby for example last year) don't tend to use "fine-grained" SNP's. Instead they just looked at L21 and M222, as a result we don't really know the spread of SNP's such as Z253/Z255/DF23/L513 apart from results in FTDNA which due to the prevalence of testing in diaspora communities in America tend to be quite Ireland/Britain centric.

Until we get a better view of the continent especially of France (historic Gaul) then we are kinda stumbling in the dark for an answer.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 07:25:43 PM »

Part of the issue here is that any large scale studies (busby for example last year) don't tend to use "fine-grained" SNP's. Instead they just looked at L21 and M222, as a result we don't really know the spread of SNP's such as Z253/Z255/DF23/L513 apart from results in FTDNA which due to the prevalence of testing in diaspora communities in America tend to be quite Ireland/Britain centric.

Until we get a better view of the continent especially of France (historic Gaul) then we are kinda stumbling in the dark for an answer.

Since the most recent studies are so behind in terms of SNP testing, I doubt we will know for any time soon then.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2012, 01:00:16 AM »

How do we know that there was a mass migration of any men of any Haplogroup or Subclade? What we know is that the LaTene art style arrived in Ireland. At the time Ireland was a Q-Celtic speaking land and if there was mass migration it certainly didn't change the language.

I'd say the arrival of the LaTene art style in Ireland had no impact on the Y-Dna of Ireland.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2012, 06:38:19 AM »

My impression, and I admit I could be wrong, is that if there is a y haplogroup associated with La Tene, it is probably U152, especially L2. There could be an L21 connection, as well, but the distribution of U152 seems a better fit overall.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2012, 03:43:22 PM »

I think the idea of waves of people pouring out of the La Tene origin areas is probably not looking at it the right way and its really an idea that is dying out in modern books.  La Tene is essentially an art style and bronze smiths had been copying continental art styles (basically whatever was in fashion and arrived in the local trade boards) for 1000 years before La Tene came along.   All the La Tene art style indicates is that that an area was in trade contact with another area who used the art style.  In Ireland you get the arrival of La Tene style but its overwhelmingly Irish copies, its very skewed to a narrow range of objects, several are perculiar to Ireland, there are no classic La Tene type burials (the Irish kept cremating) or settlement sites.  In Ireland, any normal interpretation of the data would suggest very superficial La Tene input indeed. 
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razyn
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2012, 07:54:48 PM »

Imagine my surprise to read that Celts didn't actually settle Ireland.  This link was on RootsWeb Genealogy-DNA-L today.  And it's from an Irish paper, so how is one to doubt it?

http://tinyurl.com/7b5q2of

Well, maybe it's more specific than that, and still debatable.  Anyway, I was shocked.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2012, 09:52:42 PM »

Imagine my surprise to read that Celts didn't actually settle Ireland.  This link was on RootsWeb Genealogy-DNA-L today.  And it's from an Irish paper, so how is one to doubt it?

http://tinyurl.com/7b5q2of

Well, maybe it's more specific than that, and still debatable.  Anyway, I was shocked.
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I agree that the P-Celtic speaking "Celts" of Hallstatt and La Tene didn't occupy Ireland. I'm very glad to see that the idea is being dismissed. The whole idea stood in the face the logic of a Q-Celtic speaking Ireland. As archaeologists began to see the folly of the great Continental Celtic invasion, they began using the idea of a "Celtic Elite" that brought the La Tene Culture to Ireland, possibly along with M222+, which flourished among these "elites". All utter hogwash if you ask me.

In any of these threads over the years you will see little squeaks about how could P-Celtic people be responsible for the Celtic Culture in Ireland when Q-Celtic is an older form of Celtic and is only found in Iberia outside of Ireland. Well, of course, its also found in Scotland and the Isle of Man in Historical times. Those squeaks were usually stiffled by, "What?! Oh I see! You believe in the ridiculous Book of Invasions story!!" Even now, just for using this example, I will be accused of being a "Book of Invasion" believer.They have no other weapons in their arsenal. Yes, the Book of Ivasions is a recreative spin of History, but Ireland still speaks a Q-Celtic language and we don't know from where it came. And as long as it didn't come from Iberia, most on these boards will be happy  :)

Yet, to most on these boards, Ireland remained "un Celtic" until the Celts from the Continent arrived. Now, it may be that Q-Celtic arrived from the Continent, but it wasn't with La Tene or Hallstatt.

Most people will give up the La Tene invasion after awhile, just as long as they get to maintain that no "Celt" ever reached Ireland from Spain. Of course, we know that no Q-Celtic people could have ever left Ireland for Spain, so we'll always have a mystery.

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Jean M
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2012, 05:23:09 AM »

My impression, and I admit I could be wrong, is that if there is a y haplogroup associated with La Tene, it is probably U152, especially L2. There could be an L21 connection, as well, but the distribution of U152 seems a better fit overall.

Yes I agree and have mentioned U152 in my text. But I don't think that we are restricted to just one haplogroup.
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Jean M
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2012, 05:30:12 AM »

How do we know that there was a mass migration of any men of any Haplogroup or Subclade? What we know is that the LaTene art style arrived in Ireland. At the time Ireland was a Q-Celtic speaking land and if there was mass migration it certainly didn't change the language.

I'd say the arrival of the LaTene art style in Ireland had no impact on the Y-Dna of Ireland.

I wouldn't argue for a mass migration in terms of huge numbers moving. But Ireland's population crashed in the Iron Age. So all it would need to create the current distribution of M222 in Ireland would be a few men to migrate in the late La Tene period and then inter-breed with the locals. The languages of Britain and Ireland were not so dissimilar then as Welsh and Irish are now. So it would be more or less like someone migrating from Ireland to America and his/her children all having an American accent. 
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Heber
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2012, 05:38:17 AM »

My impression, and I admit I could be wrong, is that if there is a y haplogroup associated with La Tene, it is probably U152, especially L2. There could be an L21 connection, as well, but the distribution of U152 seems a better fit overall.

Yes I agree and have mentioned U152 in my text. But I don't think that we are restricted to just one haplogroup.

i would tend to agree that Le Tene is more of a U152, Alpine Europe, P Celtic fit. M222 is more of an Atlantic Europe, Q Celtic fit. Are there any published papers which support an M222 theory?
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Heber


 
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Jean M
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2012, 05:57:20 AM »

I only mention M222 as a possibility for movement from northern Britain into Ireland. Northern Britain is the source for the La Tene styles in the northern half of Ireland. La Tene did not take a direct route from the Continent to Ireland. It made little impact on Southern Ireland.

U152 seems to have spread slowly from a centre north of the Alps, probably in the Urnfield period to start with, and so is a good candidate for La Tene arriving from the Continent into Britain, but also for other Gaulish movements, such as that into Central Anatolia, where we find some U152.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 06:06:55 AM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 07:46:00 AM »

Well, I have never thought that Celtic language and culture in Ireland or Britain came via Hallstatt and/or La Tene. I've always thought they were much older than that.
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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2012, 07:47:58 AM »

My impression, and I admit I could be wrong, is that if there is a y haplogroup associated with La Tene, it is probably U152, especially L2. There could be an L21 connection, as well, but the distribution of U152 seems a better fit overall.

Yes I agree and have mentioned U152 in my text. But I don't think that we are restricted to just one haplogroup.

Oh, I don't think it was restricted to one haplogroup either. It's just that U152 seems to be the most obvious fit for La Tene.
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Jean M
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2012, 08:00:20 AM »

Well, I have never thought that Celtic language and culture in Ireland or Britain came via Hallstatt and/or La Tene. I've always thought they were much older than that.

Same here.
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Jean M
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2012, 08:01:12 AM »

Oh, I don't think it was restricted to one haplogroup either. It's just that U152 seems to be the most obvious fit for La Tene.

Certainly into Britain.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2012, 01:57:53 PM »

Imagine my surprise to read that Celts didn't actually settle Ireland.  This link was on RootsWeb Genealogy-DNA-L today.  And it's from an Irish paper, so how is one to doubt it?

http://tinyurl.com/7b5q2of

Well, maybe it's more specific than that, and still debatable.  Anyway, I was shocked.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that the P-Celtic speaking "Celts" of Hallstatt and La Tene didn't occupy Ireland. I'm very glad to see that the idea is being dismissed. The whole idea stood in the face the logic of a Q-Celtic speaking Ireland. As archaeologists began to see the folly of the great Continental Celtic invasion, they began using the idea of a "Celtic Elite" that brought the La Tene Culture to Ireland, possibly along with M222+, which flourished among these "elites". All utter hogwash if you ask me.

In any of these threads over the years you will see little squeaks about how could P-Celtic people be responsible for the Celtic Culture in Ireland when Q-Celtic is an older form of Celtic and is only found in Iberia outside of Ireland. Well, of course, its also found in Scotland and the Isle of Man in Historical times. Those squeaks were usually stiffled by, "What?! Oh I see! You believe in the ridiculous Book of Invasions story!!" Even now, just for using this example, I will be accused of being a "Book of Invasion" believer.They have no other weapons in their arsenal. Yes, the Book of Ivasions is a recreative spin of History, but Ireland still speaks a Q-Celtic language and we don't know from where it came. And as long as it didn't come from Iberia, most on these boards will be happy  :)

Yet, to most on these boards, Ireland remained "un Celtic" until the Celts from the Continent arrived. Now, it may be that Q-Celtic arrived from the Continent, but it wasn't with La Tene or Hallstatt.

Most people will give up the La Tene invasion after awhile, just as long as they get to maintain that no "Celt" ever reached Ireland from Spain. Of course, we know that no Q-Celtic people could have ever left Ireland for Spain, so we'll always have a mystery.



Miles- the problem is archaeological books go badly out of date very quickly and people are often reading ridiculously out of date books.  Ideas like the Celts emerging (for no obvious reason) from some oval blob marked 'Hallstatt' or 'La Tene' in the Alps or Champagne are still commonplace in DNA circles but these ideas went out about 30 years ago.  IMO Celtic doesnt really have a starting point.  It most likely developed into a distinct language over a vast swathe of western and central Europe at about the same time.  Looking for a point of origin is chasing moonbeams.  The Bronze Age was typified by trade and  fashions of art, trade etc spreading through wide areas again and again.  These peoples needed to be able to talk to each other or at least the element in the populations who were involved in the control of the trade.  La Tene and Hallstatt are no different from all the other movements of art ideas, trade etc before those periods.  La Tene only gets highlighted so much because it was the last art style knocking about when the classical world histories began.  However, this is not new.  Experts have known the idea of La Tene as some sort of distinct wave of migration of a distinct group is nonsense (even in Gaul) for a long time. Sure some movements happened in the phase when La Tene was the art of choice but that is all it means.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 02:02:56 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2012, 02:14:05 PM »

My impression, and I admit I could be wrong, is that if there is a y haplogroup associated with La Tene, it is probably U152, especially L2. There could be an L21 connection, as well, but the distribution of U152 seems a better fit overall.

Yes I agree and have mentioned U152 in my text. But I don't think that we are restricted to just one haplogroup.

Oh, I don't think it was restricted to one haplogroup either. It's just that U152 seems to be the most obvious fit for La Tene.

However, we are talking about an art style not some radical change.  Europe from early in the Bronze Age was a checkerboard of chiefdoms with some rich ones in particularly good positions on the trade routes.  From time to time one would rise in wealth and prestige and when combined with the fact that this often involved a good position on trading routes it tended to spread.  There has been a tendency to name cultures after art styles found in rich graves but when the broad sweep of the Bronze and Iron Age is looked at as a whole this pattern of shifting points of prestige just seems to relate to what chiefdoms had the wealth.  The combination of wanting to emulate the wealthiest chiefdom with the fact the wealth of that chiefdom was often based on a temporary rise of that chiefdom to prominance in the trade network means that styles would spread easily.  I think the late phenomenon of a Celtic thrust eastwards was the exception rather than the rule and in the west we should be looking more at the idea of a low level flow through marriage, fostership, friendly invites of craftsmen, mercenaries etc (the latter perhaps turning the tables on the local chiefs sometimes), traders etc than invasions on any sort of scale. That process may have began with the beaker people and continued for the next 2000 years.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2012, 02:19:37 PM »

My impression, and I admit I could be wrong, is that if there is a y haplogroup associated with La Tene, it is probably U152, especially L2. There could be an L21 connection, as well, but the distribution of U152 seems a better fit overall.

Yes I agree and have mentioned U152 in my text. But I don't think that we are restricted to just one haplogroup.

The fascination with the P-Q split is another case of ideas from decades ago that are no longer thought important being still very much obsessed with in the DNA hobby. Linguists not think that the first split was all the isles Celtic from all continental.  The P-Q split was probably a late change made by the British but not the Irish.  The spread of the P fashion was much wider than can be explained by common ancestry and migration. 

i would tend to agree that Le Tene is more of a U152, Alpine Europe, P Celtic fit. M222 is more of an Atlantic Europe, Q Celtic fit. Are there any published papers which support an M222 theory?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2012, 04:12:38 PM »

I think that the Q/P shift is important and goes far beyond a fascination. The idea that the P/Q/ shift took place in the Isles with Britain shifting to P-Celtic and Ireland retaining W-Celtic leaves many questions unanswered. Isn't it known that some P-Celtic Gaulish and Belgic Tribes settled in Britain? If this is factual. then we have evidence of P-Celtic speaking people bringing their language and DNA from the Continent to Britain. This is a big deal, because I don't think such evidence exists for Ireland. Yes, it has been suggested that the Manappi and the Dumnonii tribes also settled in Ireland, but I believe I have heard more against that idea than for it.

So, there is evidence of P-Celtic people from the Continent settling in Britain, but there is no evidence of Q-Celtic people being in Britain, other than in Historical times. This seems like giant leap to theorize that The Isles were at one time all Q-Celtic speaking and that a shift took place in Britain but not in Ireland. Where does Q-Celtiberian fit into this theory? And, of course, where did Q-Celtic develop?

I think these questions go quite a bit beyond a ho-hum fascination.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2012, 06:42:28 PM »

I think that the Q/P shift is important and goes far beyond a fascination. The idea that the P/Q/ shift took place in the Isles with Britain shifting to P-Celtic and Ireland retaining W-Celtic leaves many questions unanswered. Isn't it known that some P-Celtic Gaulish and Belgic Tribes settled in Britain? If this is factual. then we have evidence of P-Celtic speaking people bringing their language and DNA from the Continent to Britain. This is a big deal, because I don't think such evidence exists for Ireland. Yes, it has been suggested that the Manappi and the Dumnonii tribes also settled in Ireland, but I believe I have heard more against that idea than for it.

So, there is evidence of P-Celtic people from the Continent settling in Britain, but there is no evidence of Q-Celtic people being in Britain, other than in Historical times. This seems like giant leap to theorize that The Isles were at one time all Q-Celtic speaking and that a shift took place in Britain but not in Ireland. Where does Q-Celtiberian fit into this theory? And, of course, where did Q-Celtic develop?

I think these questions go quite a bit beyond a ho-hum fascination.

I think its pretty well accepted that all Celtic was originally Q-Celtic.  There are alleged traces of Q-Celtic in Gaul.  Also note that Celtiberian is a specific culture of east-central Spain and is Q-Celtic.  However, this is at a remove from the Atlantic Q-Celtic network and is usually linked to Urnfield culture in SE Spain.  I am not sure if I agree with the Urnfield-Celt-Iberian link but if it is true then it would indicate that central European urnfielders were still speaking Q-Celtic c. 1000BC.  

The P-Q change seems to happened in other language branches too like Italic.  Italy along had bother Q-Italic (Latin) and P-Italic (think it was called Oscan or Umbrian).  The most intelligent guess I have heard is that the P-change originally occurred where an IE language was imposed on a non-IE substrate population.  It has been suggested that the P change in Celtic happened in the period when the Celts were in a lot of contract and settling alongside Etruscans.  The same period saw particularly intense and very prestigious trading through the Alps between the Etruscans and the north Alpine Celts.  The culture of the latter area (Hallstatt D) had detectable trade links throughout Europe as far as Britain but not Ireland.  Ireland was not trading in any way that has left any traces in that period.  
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2012, 06:49:03 PM »

I think that the Q/P shift is important and goes far beyond a fascination. The idea that the P/Q/ shift took place in the Isles with Britain shifting to P-Celtic and Ireland retaining W-Celtic leaves many questions unanswered. Isn't it known that some P-Celtic Gaulish and Belgic Tribes settled in Britain? If this is factual. then we have evidence of P-Celtic speaking people bringing their language and DNA from the Continent to Britain. This is a big deal, because I don't think such evidence exists for Ireland. Yes, it has been suggested that the Manappi and the Dumnonii tribes also settled in Ireland, but I believe I have heard more against that idea than for it.

So, there is evidence of P-Celtic people from the Continent settling in Britain, but there is no evidence of Q-Celtic people being in Britain, other than in Historical times. This seems like giant leap to theorize that The Isles were at one time all Q-Celtic speaking and that a shift took place in Britain but not in Ireland. Where does Q-Celtiberian fit into this theory? And, of course, where did Q-Celtic develop?

I think these questions go quite a bit beyond a ho-hum fascination.

Here is a little mystery.  The Pictish lands in the eastern half of the Scotland north of the Forth-Clyde Rivers line has very little La Tene material yet modern linguists have reconstructed their language as P-Celtic (noone of note believes the old idea they had a non-IE language these days).  That to me is a bit of a mystery.  Again, it seems to me that the P-Q change often spread by contact rather than migration. 
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A.D.
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« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2012, 09:07:26 PM »

The Dendrochronology guys in Ireland have suggested large scale re-forestation all over Ireland suggesting a massive drop in both agriculture and pastoralism hence population. That's a lot of people dying or moving somewhere. 
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