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eochaidh
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« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2012, 09:52:11 PM »

The Dendrochronology guys in Ireland have suggested large scale re-forestation all over Ireland suggesting a massive drop in both agriculture and pastoralism hence population. That's a lot of people dying or moving somewhere. 

Moving somewhere?! Leaving Ireland? Possibly bringing DNA from Ireland to some other place? That is GIGANTIC news!!! Suppose that some of those Irish even made it to the Continent at some time during the 300 years between 600bc and 300bc! :)

We can be sure that those who remained in Ireland maintained their Q-Celtic language and that even when times got better they didn't replace their Q-Celtic with P-Celtic. What can that mean? It certainly wouldn't suggest that large amounts of P-Celtic people came to Ireland after 300bc from either the Continent or Britain. If large amounts of P-Celts came to Ireland when the population of Ireland was at a low ebb you might think it would have changed the language; especially if the P-Celts were elites. So, the next large influx of people (DNA) would have been the Normans 1,000 years later. Did the Normans bring the L21+Subclades to Ireland?

It would seem that Ireland's DNA profile must have been resonably set before 600bc and probably not much changed after that until the arrival of the Normans. We can assume that Ireland was speaking Q-Celtic at 600bc, so it would seem that Ireland's DNA profile might have been influenced by those who  brought Q-Celtic to Ireland. Of course, the DNA profile could have been resonably set even before the Q-Celts arrived. Since we know of no other influx after the bad period of 600bc-300bc.

So, what part of the Continent most greatly effected Ireland before 300bc and from where on the Continent is Q-Celtic most likely to have arrived? If you go by Eurogenes Autosomal Population runs, Ireland shows a close affinity with Cornish testers and a few French testers, along with the assorted Scots, Orcadians and UK testers. A German or Dutch person pops up now and then, but mostly UK and a few French. Certainly a Eurogenes run done in 600bc could have shown different results, but is this present affinity due to the Normans and/or the Bretons and their connection with Britain. I'm 75% Irish, Scots-Irish and 25% French-Canadian (Brittany/Normandy/La Rochelle mostly) and my results could easily pass as a Cornish or Kent guy. Is there any sign of Q-Celtic in the West/Northwest of France? Of course, it could have been brought to that area from Ireland :)
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« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2012, 07:13:11 AM »

I am working from memory right now, so pardon me if I make any errors. Anyway, P-Celtic never made it to Iberia - not noticeably, that is . The Maritime Bell Beaker network or system that operated within the old Atlantic Bronze Age network had hubs in Iberia and in Morbihan in Armorica (Brittany/Bretagne). I understand many artifacts of Morbihan manufacture have been found at old sites in Ireland.

So it seems to me there was probably some input of people into Ireland from Iberia and Morbihan in Brittany during the Bronze Age. That may represent the entrance of P312 and L21. Up until then, I-M284 and I-M223 may have been dominant.
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Jean M
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« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2012, 08:41:26 AM »

I doubt very much whether any Y-DNA haplogroup I arrived in Ireland before the Bronze Age. It has become a habit to assume haplogroup I must represent the hunter-gatherer population in every part of Europe, but the data available so far does not suggest that.  M284 is comparatively rare in Ireland. Where it is found in those of Irish descent with Gaelic surnames, and particularly in baronial families with a credible pedigree back to a Cruithin (British) origin, this suggests an ancestor who arrived in Ireland from Celtic Britain. For example it is found in McGuinness and McCartan men descended from the Uí Echach Cobha, a lineage considered Cruithin in the 6th century AD, according to McEvoy and Bradley.

See The Story of I.

I imagine that the tiny amounts of G, J2 and E in Ireland are all that remains of the pre-Celtic population in terms of Y-lines.


« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 08:49:18 AM by Jean M » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2012, 12:12:26 PM »

So, it would seem very unlikely that the La Tene Culture brought L21 Subclades to Ireland. It seems unlikely that La Tene, in the form of a migration of people into Ireland, most likely didn't exist. The answer seems to be the Copper and Bronze age and the Beaker Culture with DNA moving in AND out of Ireland. Tin from Cornwall, copper from Cork, and sea routes to transport. No "Genetic Black Holes" here. A man, a family, a group of families could migrate to wherever they thought opportunity was best. Go to the good weather, leave the bad weather, stay for a generation with some, perhaps, returning the homeland. And art styles, culture, language and DNA are transfered freely back and forth and all about. Nothing stagnant, nothing linear about this picture.

2,000 years, perhaps, for L21 and its Subclades to be born and scattered about. 2,000 years, perhaps, for L21 and its Subclades to arrive and leave Ireland before the dark period of 600bc-300bc. And, in 2,000 years, how far reaching was this playland of commerce, art, language, culture and DNA movement.

I think L21 and its older Subclades were born and transfered about in the expansive Beaker and Bronze Age Cultures and that's about as far as you can go. Ireland, Britain and the Western Continent are the birth place of L21 and its Subclades. I think Ireland, Britain and the Western Continent are the birthplace of the Celtic language and culture.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 12:53:34 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2012, 03:59:20 PM »

So, it would seem very unlikely that the La Tene Culture brought L21 Subclades to Ireland.

Not first brought anyway. In every case with haplogroups, more could always turn up later than the first arrival.  

Quote
It seems unlikely that La Tene, in the form of a migration of people into Ireland, most likely didn't exist.

I wouldn't go for that myself. The problem is that anti-migrationism has been at work in Irish archaeology just as much as elsewhere. The standard thinking has been to look for alternative explanations for a load of new styles, objects whatever entering A from B. Plus there may have been a certain amount of over-statement to build  the case against the old idea of the Celts arriving in the Iron Age. That case is strong enough without the need to deny all movement into Ireland in the Iron Age.

Alan has been giving you the standard archaeological people-movement sceptism, but then genetics may be telling us something different - not that La Tene was the big event that brought Celtic to Ireland, but that some people entered the northern part of Ireland after it had suffered a climatic/economic downturn and consequence population crash and got the chance to multiply.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 04:23:23 PM by Jean M » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2012, 04:55:27 PM »

So, it would seem very unlikely that the La Tene Culture brought L21 Subclades to Ireland.

Not first brought anyway. In every case with haplogroups, more could always turn up later than the first arrival.  

Quote
It seems unlikely that La Tene, in the form of a migration of people into Ireland, most likely didn't exist.

I wouldn't go for that myself. The problem is that anti-migrationism has been at work in Irish archaeology just as much as elsewhere. The standard thinking has been to look for alternative explanations for a load of new styles, objects whatever entering A from B. Plus there may have been a certain amount of over-statement to build  the case against the old idea of the Celts arriving in the Iron Age. That case is strong enough without the need to deny all movement into Ireland in the Iron Age.

Alan has been giving you the standard archaeological people-movement sceptism, but then genetics may be telling us something different - not that La Tene was the big event that brought Celtic to Ireland, but that some people entered the northern part of Ireland after it had suffered a climatic/economic downturn and consequence population crash and got the chance to multiply.

I just read your piece on M222! So, because the pattern of spread seems odd to you then the logical conclusion is that M222 was spread to Ireland by La Tene Celts from Northern Britain?! Dear God in Heaven! :)

First off let me make it clear that I agree that people were hasty in their assumption that M222 was an "O'Neill" marker, but the jump you have made to your conclusion makes the O"Neill assumption pale in comparison. First off, what is your genetic proof that there were La Tene Celts in Northern Britain? That would be an excellent starting place?

After we've established why you think there is genetic proof that La Tene Celts settled in Northern Britain, we can move on to the effects of the Great Famine on Donegal and the spread of M222 to places like Belfast and Britain. Astonishing!

EDIT: Let me add that I am an uneducated idiot, and I'm still bowled over! :)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 05:00:03 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2012, 05:20:59 PM »

Hi Miles. Surprised that you have only just come across this idea. You've been missing an opportunity to use lots of exclamation marks. :)

La Tene objects/styles flowed into Britain from the Continent and spread northwards. Specific types of  La Tene object then moved across from Northern Britain to northern Ireland. Now these objects (or the designs for them) could have spread by trade. That is therefore the preferred position among archaeologists. But genetics gives us another story.

According to Mikewww, M222 seems to show greater variance in Britain than Ireland. All I say is that "Though migration from Ireland could account for some of the British M222, the pattern is unexpected for radiation from Ireland. So M222 is more likely to be a La Tène marker, spread from Northern Britain into Northern Ireland around 200 BC. If so it would be present among the people of north-western Ireland centuries before the Uí Néill came on the scene - if they actually did.... "
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Jean M
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« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2012, 05:40:42 PM »

I realise that movement out of Ireland seems so much more comprehensible than movement into it. It seems so sensible to leave Ireland for the south of France where it doesn't rain every day and you can grow grape-vines.

Certainly in the 19th century people were desperate to leave Ireland for a whole range of exceedingly good reasons.  Just about anywhere else seemed preferable.  It is easy to project that picture back in time indefinitely and imagine that the only people who actually moved into Ireland at any time were poor souls lost on the high seas when the navigator took sick round about Jersey.

That would be a big mistake. Ireland was a prize in the Bell Beaker period. It had metals. It had pasture. In fact it is pretty big on the kind of lush pasture that you get if it rains incessantly, and the perfect place to breed horses and conduct cattle raids. Bronze Age Ireland was rich. A boom economy like the late lamented Celtic Tiger, during which Ireland was a net importer of persons for the first time in recorded history.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 05:46:16 PM by Jean M » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2012, 05:56:54 PM »

Hi Miles. Surprised that you have only just come across this idea. You've been missing an opportunity to use lots of exclamation marks. :)

La Tene objects/styles flowed into Britain from the Continent and spread northwards. Specific types of  La Tene object then moved across from Northern Britain to northern Ireland. Now these objects (or the designs for them) could have spread by trade. That is therefore the preferred position among archaeologists. But genetics gives us another story.

According to Mikewww, M222 seems to show greater variance in Britain than Ireland. All I say is that "Though migration from Ireland could account for some of the British M222, the pattern is unexpected for radiation from Ireland. So M222 is more likely to be a La Tène marker, spread from Northern Britain into Northern Ireland around 200 BC. If so it would be present among the people of north-western Ireland centuries before the Uí Néill came on the scene - if they actually did.... "

Years ago I got Alan to admit that Archaeology is a "guessing" science. The problem is, after these scientists guess, they write about it as if it were fact. You're doing the same thing when you talk about the "flow of La Tene art". Even you know you're guessing when you say that these objects "...could have been spread by trade." The fact is, there is nothing to show that any La Tene people settled in Northern Britain, much less that they were M222. You've added M222 to your imaginary settlement!

I have little doubt that M222 existed in Ireland before the system of names went into effect, so you needn't sell me on that idea. I've studied the Irish Genealogies here and there, and I have an interest in the Doherty clan because of a close match, but I know that they aren't reliable. Still, names or no names, Ui Neill or not, none of the mistakes of early genetic genealogists have anything to do with your theory. Unless it works like this.... "See! The whole Ui Neill thing was stupid! So, M222 MUST be a La Tene marker!" I've already agreed with you that the whole Ui Neill thing was stupid.... so, back to your genetic proof that La Tene M222 settled in Northen Britain. Simple enough, eh?

EDIT: Well, wait a second, you can't even prove any La Tene people settled in Northen Britain!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 06:04:09 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2012, 06:04:35 PM »

Years ago I got Alan to admit that Archaeology is a "guessing" science. The problem is, after these scientists guess, they write about it as if it were fact. You're doing the same thing when you talk about the "flow of La Tene art".

No I'm following the dates there. The La Tene style is earliest on the Continent and spread from there into Britain and later arrived in Ireland. That much is straightforward and not a guessing game (although Barry Cunliffe likes to say that there is no such thing as a fact in archaeology.)

The debate is simply over how the styles moved. That is the purpose of this thread. Did they move just by trade or the spread of elites (another popular idea with archaeologists) or was there significant movement of people carrying these ideas? What haplogroups might be linked to these movements?  



« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 06:06:13 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2012, 06:06:07 PM »

So, it would seem very unlikely that the La Tene Culture brought L21 Subclades to Ireland.

Not first brought anyway. In every case with haplogroups, more could always turn up later than the first arrival.  

Quote
It seems unlikely that La Tene, in the form of a migration of people into Ireland, most likely didn't exist.

I wouldn't go for that myself. The problem is that anti-migrationism has been at work in Irish archaeology just as much as elsewhere. The standard thinking has been to look for alternative explanations for a load of new styles, objects whatever entering A from B. Plus there may have been a certain amount of over-statement to build  the case against the old idea of the Celts arriving in the Iron Age. That case is strong enough without the need to deny all movement into Ireland in the Iron Age.

Alan has been giving you the standard archaeological people-movement sceptism, but then genetics may be telling us something different - not that La Tene was the big event that brought Celtic to Ireland, but that some people entered the northern part of Ireland after it had suffered a climatic/economic downturn and consequence population crash and got the chance to multiply.

I actually am in two minds about it.  In Ireland La Tene material looks pretty superficial but on the other hand so did beaker in Ireland until Ross Island proved there was more to it than just replacing the Grooved Ware with beaker pots.  I am in two minds about La Tene material because as well as a lack of depth to the changes, there is also apparently a lack of continuity with anything that went before when the Irish La Tene material is looked at.  I think I would probably say I am a believer in small (how small I am not sure) movement in Ireland at that time. I suspect they may have not been moving to take over the place but welcomed in to some degree.  

One thing worth noting is that although the La Tene material is concentrated in the northern two-thirds of the island, this is not absolute and recent analysis of radiocarbon dates of sites discovered during developer funded rescue excavations during the economic boom has shown that the pattern of a dark age in settlement suggested by absence of metalwork is real and traces really are less common for 600-300BC.  The same analysis has shown that at the time when the La Tene material appears (mainly but not exclusively in the northern two-thirds of Ireland) after this dark age the WHOLE of Ireland also shows a recovery in terms of settlement sites from c. 300BC or just before.  This strongly suggests that something happened across the whole of Ireland at this time.  Its hard to interpret because t was very different in the Iron Age than anywhere else so a really strong imprint from somewhere else is not obvious.  All we can say is that revival c. 300BC or just before  in evidence of settlement (although not spectacular) did coincide with the reappearance of contact with the outside world (La Tene) of Britain and Gaul.  However, Ireland also remains very different in detail from the La Tene period cultures of Britain and Gaul with its flimsy settlement traces, lack of pottery, use of cremation barrows (rare though), strange hengiform royals sites with timber circles etc, linear territorial boundary earthworks etc.  

Another mystery is that after another sort of Dark Age in terms of remains in the Roman period there is (after a century or so of massive population growth indicated in pollen cores from bogs) an explosion of new sites and material c. 500AD that again owes very little to what went before and (according to Harold Mytum) owes a huge amount to the culture of the then-collapsing Roman empire.  Again another period that is poorly understood and really anything is possible in terms of what went on in human movement.  
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 07:09:44 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2012, 06:31:48 PM »

Interesting thoughts Alan.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2012, 07:15:04 PM »


 c
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« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2012, 07:26:21 PM »

I doubt very much whether any Y-DNA haplogroup I arrived in Ireland before the Bronze Age. It has become a habit to assume haplogroup I must represent the hunter-gatherer population in every part of Europe, but the data available so far does not suggest that.  M284 is comparatively rare in Ireland. Where it is found in those of Irish descent with Gaelic surnames, and particularly in baronial families with a credible pedigree back to a Cruithin (British) origin, this suggests an ancestor who arrived in Ireland from Celtic Britain. For example it is found in McGuinness and McCartan men descended from the Uí Echach Cobha, a lineage considered Cruithin in the 6th century AD, according to McEvoy and Bradley.

See The Story of I.

I imagine that the tiny amounts of G, J2 and E in Ireland are all that remains of the pre-Celtic population in terms of Y-lines.




The fact that M284 exists among folks with old Gaelic surnames is what made me think it is ancient in Ireland and even beat L21 to the punch there.

You could be right about the vestigial bit of G2, etc., in Ireland, though.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 07:28:10 PM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
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« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2012, 07:37:30 PM »

I realise that movement out of Ireland seems so much more comprehensible than movement into it. It seems so sensible to leave Ireland for the south of France where it doesn't rain every day and you can grow grape-vines.

Certainly in the 19th century people were desperate to leave Ireland for a whole range of exceedingly good reasons.  Just about anywhere else seemed preferable.  It is easy to project that picture back in time indefinitely and imagine that the only people who actually moved into Ireland at any time were poor souls lost on the high seas when the navigator took sick round about Jersey.

That would be a big mistake. Ireland was a prize in the Bell Beaker period. It had metals. It had pasture. In fact it is pretty big on the kind of lush pasture that you get if it rains incessantly, and the perfect place to breed horses and conduct cattle raids. Bronze Age Ireland was rich. A boom economy like the late lamented Celtic Tiger, during which Ireland was a net importer of persons for the first time in recorded history.

You mock, yet you get it wrong. You know that I didn't say that "out of Ireland" movement seems more comprehensible than "into Ireland" movement, yet you open with it. Why would you do such an odd thing as that? Still, you very much know what I am talking about when I say that the idea of any movement out of Ireland, other than in the 19th century is scoffed at.

Over and over again Irish on these boards post article after article about the Irish on the Continent, but, well you know, it's all Nationalism. Say, I know you like genetic proof, don't you? You know, like how the genetic proof of La Tene bringing M222 into Ireland gets rid of that silly Ui Neill thing (which I agree is silly). Well, I have one you will love! You won't believe it, but you'll love it.

On 23andMe I have a small match with a man who is often seen on these boards and who happens to have some Dutch ancestry (his disgust in being even distantly related to me must be hard to endure). If you go by the size it might be about 300 years old, but the guessing in that game is really something (almost like archaeology). Well, it turns out that a Theodoro Keogh is recorded in Irish Annals as fighting in the Spanish Netherlands in 1660. I'm a Kehoe, I have no other Dutch connections that I know of... could it be that some Kehoe/Keogh DNA got into The Netherlands? Who knows, he could have brought back a Dutch bride to Ireland, but he WAS on the Continent along with other Irishmen. Then there's my match with a Hungarian! What?!! But, I have a great grandmother who is a Taaffe, and (I know you won't believe it) the Taaffe family is famous a Viscounts in Austria, Germany and Hungary! Could it be that some of my Taaffe genes are in my Hungarian match? Nonsense!! No Irish DNA has ever made it to the Continent! This is an example from one side of my family, and is within the last 300 years. Irish people have been leaving Ireland and going to the Continent since man has set foot in Ireland; to think not is just plain silly. Yes, in and out, in and out, for as long as there have been boats to make the trip.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2012, 08:04:18 PM »

I realise that movement out of Ireland seems so much more comprehensible than movement into it. It seems so sensible to leave Ireland for the south of France where it doesn't rain every day and you can grow grape-vines.

Certainly in the 19th century people were desperate to leave Ireland for a whole range of exceedingly good reasons.  Just about anywhere else seemed preferable.  It is easy to project that picture back in time indefinitely and imagine that the only people who actually moved into Ireland at any time were poor souls lost on the high seas when the navigator took sick round about Jersey.

That would be a big mistake. Ireland was a prize in the Bell Beaker period. It had metals. It had pasture. In fact it is pretty big on the kind of lush pasture that you get if it rains incessantly, and the perfect place to breed horses and conduct cattle raids. Bronze Age Ireland was rich. A boom economy like the late lamented Celtic Tiger, during which Ireland was a net importer of persons for the first time in recorded history.

You mock, yet you get it wrong. You know that I didn't say that "out of Ireland" movement seems more comprehensible than "into Ireland" movement, yet you open with it. Why would you do such an odd thing as that? Still, you very much know what I am talking about when I say that the idea of any movement out of Ireland, other than in the 19th century is scoffed at.

Over and over again Irish on these boards post article after article about the Irish on the Continent, but, well you know, it's all Nationalism. Say, I know you like genetic proof, don't you? You know, like how the genetic proof of La Tene bringing M222 into Ireland gets rid of that silly Ui Neill thing (which I agree is silly). Well, I have one you will love! You won't believe it, but you'll love it.

On 23andMe I have a small match with a man who is often seen on these boards and who happens to have some Dutch ancestry (his disgust in being even distantly related to me must be hard to endure). If you go by the size it might be about 300 years old, but the guessing in that game is really something (almost like archaeology). Well, it turns out that a Theodoro Keogh is recorded in Irish Annals as fighting in the Spanish Netherlands in 1660. I'm a Kehoe, I have no other Dutch connections that I know of... could it be that some Kehoe/Keogh DNA got into The Netherlands? Who knows, he could have brought back a Dutch bride to Ireland, but he WAS on the Continent along with other Irishmen. Then there's my match with a Hungarian! What?!! But, I have a great grandmother who is a Taaffe, and (I know you won't believe it) the Taaffe family is famous a Viscounts in Austria, Germany and Hungary! Could it be that some of my Taaffe genes are in my Hungarian match? Nonsense!! No Irish DNA has ever made it to the Continent! This is an example from one side of my family, and is within the last 300 years. Irish people have been leaving Ireland and going to the Continent since man has set foot in Ireland; to think not is just plain silly. Yes, in and out, in and out, for as long as there have been boats to make the trip.

Noone is denying that there was a very substantial flight from ireland in the 1600s.  Its a matter of record.  However, you can neither disprove nor assume that this was a regular event.  I think there may well have often been some contact but I also think you are quite wrong if you think it was some sort of free flow of people like some sort of European Union.  IN Europe the right to go and live anywhere in the EU was only granted in the last decade or so.  Now, I can think of scenarios for small scale settllement where some genes would flow - trade, dynastic intermarriage, fosterage of royal children, dowry mercenaries, alliance, traders and some craftsmen.  I would tend to see in the record more scope for small scale trickles like that but I think its quite wrong to imagine farming folk getting some sort of ferry and just heading to some sort of employment exchange. 
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« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2012, 08:25:55 PM »

I realise that movement out of Ireland seems so much more comprehensible than movement into it. It seems so sensible to leave Ireland for the south of France where it doesn't rain every day and you can grow grape-vines.

Certainly in the 19th century people were desperate to leave Ireland for a whole range of exceedingly good reasons.  Just about anywhere else seemed preferable.  It is easy to project that picture back in time indefinitely and imagine that the only people who actually moved into Ireland at any time were poor souls lost on the high seas when the navigator took sick round about Jersey.

That would be a big mistake. Ireland was a prize in the Bell Beaker period. It had metals. It had pasture. In fact it is pretty big on the kind of lush pasture that you get if it rains incessantly, and the perfect place to breed horses and conduct cattle raids. Bronze Age Ireland was rich. A boom economy like the late lamented Celtic Tiger, during which Ireland was a net importer of persons for the first time in recorded history.

You mock, yet you get it wrong. You know that I didn't say that "out of Ireland" movement seems more comprehensible than "into Ireland" movement, yet you open with it. Why would you do such an odd thing as that? Still, you very much know what I am talking about when I say that the idea of any movement out of Ireland, other than in the 19th century is scoffed at.

Over and over again Irish on these boards post article after article about the Irish on the Continent, but, well you know, it's all Nationalism. Say, I know you like genetic proof, don't you? You know, like how the genetic proof of La Tene bringing M222 into Ireland gets rid of that silly Ui Neill thing (which I agree is silly). Well, I have one you will love! You won't believe it, but you'll love it.

On 23andMe I have a small match with a man who is often seen on these boards and who happens to have some Dutch ancestry (his disgust in being even distantly related to me must be hard to endure). If you go by the size it might be about 300 years old, but the guessing in that game is really something (almost like archaeology). Well, it turns out that a Theodoro Keogh is recorded in Irish Annals as fighting in the Spanish Netherlands in 1660. I'm a Kehoe, I have no other Dutch connections that I know of... could it be that some Kehoe/Keogh DNA got into The Netherlands? Who knows, he could have brought back a Dutch bride to Ireland, but he WAS on the Continent along with other Irishmen. Then there's my match with a Hungarian! What?!! But, I have a great grandmother who is a Taaffe, and (I know you won't believe it) the Taaffe family is famous a Viscounts in Austria, Germany and Hungary! Could it be that some of my Taaffe genes are in my Hungarian match? Nonsense!! No Irish DNA has ever made it to the Continent! This is an example from one side of my family, and is within the last 300 years. Irish people have been leaving Ireland and going to the Continent since man has set foot in Ireland; to think not is just plain silly. Yes, in and out, in and out, for as long as there have been boats to make the trip.

Oh, boy... At any rate,

it seems that U152 is more indicative of the spread of La Tene, at least in those areas associated with it on the Continent. So, is L21 more of a Bell Beaker fit? I can picture L21 flourishing more among maritime networks.
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« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2012, 08:33:28 PM »

How do we know that there was a mass migration of any men of any Haplogroup or Subclade? What we know is that the LaTene art style arrived in Ireland. At the time Ireland was a Q-Celtic speaking land and if there was mass migration it certainly didn't change the language.

I'd say the arrival of the LaTene art style in Ireland had no impact on the Y-Dna of Ireland.

I wouldn't argue for a mass migration in terms of huge numbers moving. But Ireland's population crashed in the Iron Age. So all it would need to create the current distribution of M222 in Ireland would be a few men to migrate in the late La Tene period and then inter-breed with the locals. The languages of Britain and Ireland were not so dissimilar then as Welsh and Irish are now. So it would be more or less like someone migrating from Ireland to America and his/her children all having an American accent. 

Was there a population crash in the Bronze age in Britian?
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Bren123
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« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2012, 08:45:37 PM »



I think L21 and its older Subclades were born and transfered about in the expansive Beaker and Bronze Age Cultures and that's about as far as you can go. Ireland, Britain and the Western Continent are the birth place of L21 and its Subclades. I think Ireland, Britain and the Western Continent are the birthplace of the Celtic language and culture.

What actual evidence is there for this?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2012, 09:05:54 PM »



I think L21 and its older Subclades were born and transfered about in the expansive Beaker and Bronze Age Cultures and that's about as far as you can go. Ireland, Britain and the Western Continent are the birth place of L21 and its Subclades. I think Ireland, Britain and the Western Continent are the birthplace of the Celtic language and culture.

What actual evidence is there for this?
None. Which is exatly the same as the evidence against it. Well, there's admitted guess work at DNA and archaeology, but wait 15 minutes and it'll change.

Look, there were people, places, water, boats, tin, copper, commerce, and the human spirit of adventure. I believe that during the time of the beaker culture and bronze age the Western Continent of Europe, Britain and Ireland had people coming ang going as a matter of course (no pun intended-well maybe...).

And you sir! You get to believe as you like!  :)
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eochaidh
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« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2012, 09:07:41 PM »

Blasphemy!!!!

I just wanted to say that....
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eochaidh
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« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2012, 09:34:15 PM »

 
[/quote]

[/quote]

Noone is denying that there was a very substantial flight from ireland in the 1600s.  Its a matter of record.  However, you can neither disprove nor assume that this was a regular event.  I think there may well have often been some contact but I also think you are quite wrong if you think it was some sort of free flow of people like some sort of European Union.  IN Europe the right to go and live anywhere in the EU was only granted in the last decade or so.  Now, I can think of scenarios for small scale settllement where some genes would flow - trade, dynastic intermarriage, fosterage of royal children, dowry mercenaries, alliance, traders and some craftsmen.  I would tend to see in the record more scope for small scale trickles like that but I think its quite wrong to imagine farming folk getting some sort of ferry and just heading to some sort of employment exchange.  
[/quote]
______________________________________________________________________
MY STUFF"S DOWN HERE!!! Thank you....

The stuff about Theodoro (God, now that's a name!) Keogh and my Taaffe family was only to show that it DOES happen and that it can happen twice in one side of one man's family. And, that man is an idiot! I didn't say it happened regularly in the 17th century. However, I will say that there were probably cases of people leaving Ireland for the Continent that are NOT on record. "Hey Colm, my cousin, Viscount Taaffe of Hungary knows some fine women!" "Ah, you're full of it" "Seriously, come on, I'm visiting him this summer!" "Where the hell did Colm go?! I thought he said he'd be back in a week!"

Now, in the Beaker Period and the Bronze Age, YES!, I think it was a regular event! Blasphemy!! (I said it again!). I think there has been movement of people in and out of Ireland since there were boats to make the trip!

Now I'm going to say that again like Elwood P. Dowd said, "The night worn on" in Harvey. So, that means when you read this do it with Jimmy Stewart's voice....

"I think there has been movement of people in and out of Ireland since there were boats to make the trip."

Where's Harvey?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 10:00:31 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2012, 06:04:26 AM »

You mock, yet you get it wrong. You know that I didn't say that "out of Ireland" movement seems more comprehensible than "into Ireland" movement, yet you open with it. Why would you do such an odd thing as that?

To meet mockery with mockery of course. It's your choice of weapon. Just letting you know that you don't have a monopoly on it. :)

[Added] You have been screaming blue murder for years, acting like Alan is unpatriotic to suggest that Ireland actually attracted people in the Copper Age, rather than repelling them. This is frankly daft.    
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 11:22:32 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2012, 06:10:24 AM »

Was there a population crash in the Bronze age in Britain?

No. The Bronze Age was a (relatively) high population period for the British Isles in general. Both of the major islands had copper and Britain had tin, which enabled these island to get ahead of the game in the manufacture of bronze in western Europe. Britain also has plenty of lush rain-fed pasture on which cattle were reared, just like Ireland.

People moved direct from the Continent into both Britain and Ireland in the Copper Age and also (on the isotope evidence) between the two islands. Irish gold was traded into Britain in the Bronze Age.  
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 06:47:19 AM by Jean M » Logged
Heber
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« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2012, 12:23:59 PM »

Eochaidh,
Here is an interesting account of your Taafes in Czech and Austria.
One of my ancestors from Clogher in Ireland obtained his doctorate in Prague University in the 13th century, after studies in Wurzburg. He returned there many time afterwards. There were many exchanges between Ireland and the continent using the established network of safe monastic settlements. Many of these monastic schools evolved into some of the great universities and colleges on the continent, including Salamanca, Seville, Madrid, Alcala,  Santiago de Compostela, Lisbon, Louvain, Antwerp, Tournai, Douai, Lille, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Nantes, Poitiers and Paris. Many others became embryonic centres for developing towns for example, Koln, Wurzburg, Salzburg, St Gallen, Bobbio, etc.

"There were various Irish settlements in the Great Moravian Empire of the 7th and 8th centuries. For the most part, these settlements were established by Irish monks and priests who helped spread Christianity in the region. At that time, continental Europe was mired in the Dark Ages and Ireland, thanks in part to its geographical isolation, was a beacon of Christian learning, which produced a number of missionaries who helped reinvigorate the Christian faith abroad.
Religion was also behind the most well known Czech-Irish connection. Fleeing religious persecution, Irish Franciscan monks set up a monastery here in Prague's new town in the 17th century. Their cloister was a centre of learning for nearly two centuries. The street on which the monastery was situated is still called Hybernska to this day, which comes from Hibernia, the Latin name for Ireland. Legend has it that the Irish Franciscans also introduced the potato to the Czech lands....
Besides the Irish Franciscans, many of the Irish nobility (Wild Geese) who were displaced by the English in the 1600s, also settled in what is now the Czech Republic. Their most famous descendant was Eduard Taafe, who was prime minister of Austria in the 1890s. Irish mercenary soldiers are also said to have been responsible for the assassination of Count Wallenstein, who was the last Czech pretender to the Bohemian crown before the Hapsburgs managed to consolidate their power here."
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 12:26:12 PM by Heber » Logged

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