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Author Topic: R1b in Iberia (includes DF27, Z196, U152, L21, etc.)  (Read 6274 times)
Arwunbee
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« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2012, 08:26:42 AM »

I'm sure one of the factory workers will discover that a couple of the red U106 M&Ms made their way into the green P312 M&M packets, but I don't see quality control bothering to rewrite whole chapters on the history of green M&M packaging procedures.

But what interests me is this:

The P312 McDonalds restaurants appear to have kept their monopoly on the British Isles burger market pretty much up til the 5th century AD.  The U106 Burger King restaurants have clearly made inroads from the 5th century onwards, particularly in the English market.

What I find incredible/amazing/interesting is that these two restaurant chains are roughly coetaneous, yet one pretty much dominated the British Isles burger market BC (Before Cheeseburger).  We hear about how disorganised the British Isles celtic tribes were.  Anyone would look that way vis-a-vis the Romans.  But I think (and I speak as a U106 Burger King franchisee) some credit has to go to the P312 McDonalds restaurants for holding on for as long as they did.  Or did they?  Were P312 really that long in the British Isles, say long before 1000 BC?

Either Burger King was totally caught up in the northern European plain for a long time, or maybe McDonalds hasn't been in the Isles for as long as some people might think.  I just don't see what major taste advantage they had over Burger King's burgers.  Was it simply first mover advantage > better climate > better land > better cattle > better beef patties > more and better fed upsized warriors?

Did Burger King just simply have the bad luck of a different route towards Western Europe and missed the boat?


« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 08:33:15 AM by Arwunbee » Logged

Map of L44 subclade (of U106): http://g.co/maps/9xswy
rms2
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« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2012, 10:09:32 AM »

Maybe some one of us could start a new thread on U106 versus P312 in the British Isles to discuss this?

I know I am as guilty as anyone of taking threads off topic, including this one, but maybe we could try to get it back on topic?

We already have one thread on the Begoña Martinez-Cruz study of Iberian M269 that has gone completely off the road and into the Indo-European labyrinth.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 10:10:46 AM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2012, 03:44:31 PM »

Is it entirely fair to imply that those who look at the evidence and reach a conclusion that differs from one's own are necessarily being "doctrinaire"?

We disagree on U106 in Britain, for example. I think the evidence is overwhelming for my position, but it's hardly a matter of rigid "doctrine".



In my opinion the beliefs that all U106 is of Germanic origin, or that no U106 could have reached Britain before the Anglo-Saxons, have both become doctrinal.
They may even both prove to be correct, but as far as I am concerned, they remain unproven at present.

The earlier belief that all of P312 is Celtic seems to be weakening, but I suspect it still has its supporters. My use of the term "doctrinaire" applies to the theories, not necessarily to those who accept them. I use the term to mean a theory from which dissent will not be tolerated.


Well, I don't visit all dna chat forums, but I don't know of any where "dissent will not be tolerated".

A good argument is generally enjoyed by most of us.

Of course, the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic is unproven, although I think the evidence for that opinion is overwhelming. But "doctrinal"?

The idea that nothing much can be said about U106 until every possible genetic stone has been overturned - and when are we to expect that to finally be accomplished? - is as much a "belief" and a "doctrine" as the opinion that U106 is mostly Germanic.

I wonder who ever claimed that "all of P312 is Celtic". I don't recall anyone ever doing that.

The same goes for U106. Who ever said all of it is Germanic? Every last bit, without exception? I never claimed that, nor would I.

I think you are mischaracterizing the arguments you apparently find so offensive.

I have never said I find arguments that all of U106 is Germanic or that all of P312 is Celtic to be offensive. While I do occasionally find them annoying, it is more accurate to say I find they pose a challenge for me.

Nor have I ever said that one can't say anything about the general nature of U106 or P312. Obviously a considerable part of U106 is of Germanic origin and a large part of P312 of Celtic origin. What becomes problematic for me, as mentioned above, is extending the general rule to the particular example. Thus whenever U106 is found in an unlikely area, an explanation must be found which is consistent with a Germanic origin. The alternative that some U106 may not actually be of Germanic origin is either not seriously considered or dismissed out of hand.

While you may not be one of them, I can assure you that there are those who will perform similar mental gymnastics to explain any P312 in non-Celtic areas. I often butted heads with them on the DNA forum. I think Mike W. will remember some examples where I was attacked for suggesting some P312 was likely present in Scandinavia since the Bronze Age.

All I am saying is that I think it is erroneous to view U106 as monolithic in the absence of a full analysis of its subclades. I don't know why this should be such a revolutionary proposal and engender so much hostility.

We can certainly agree that we have completely hijacked this topic. So if anyone wants to say more on the issue, let us agree that it should be done on a new topic. I think, however, I have said all I intend to say on the subject.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 03:50:35 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
negative_control
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« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2012, 08:06:53 PM »

This thread seems to have drifted somewhat...

In an attempt to get it back on track-

This is a pretty small sample (27 men) from a very large and diverse region. It is probably rather early to say much about DF27 until it is tested across a larger Iberian sample and compared with Europe as a whole. (nb. this is not a cue for a deluge of celt-centric replies)

If we buy into "allele surfing during a population range expansion" as a mechanism, then DF27 might originate somewhere more central.

Does finding an Iberian Z225+ rule out a colonial expansion in latin america? I would say it was entirely consistent with it.






About a month ago, the 1000 Genomes Project made the data available for their Iberian samples. Here is my analysis of the 27 samples. Please note that there were originally 74 samples, of which half were women, some were related (son-father pairs) and some did not have low coverage data.

Here is the breakdown: 

SNPFrequency
DF27+44.4% (12 of 27)
... DF27*14.8% (4 of 27)
... Z196+25.9% (7 of 27)
... Z225+3.7% (1 of 27)
L21+7.4% (2 of 27)
U152+7.4% (2 of 27)
L23*3.7% (1 of 27)
P312*3.7% (1 of 27)
U106+3.7% (1 of 27)
Total R1b70.4% (19 of 27)


- Not surprisingly, R1b is quite high (70.4%). This is in line with published papers (Busby, Myres, Cruciani, etc.).

- As can be seen, the overall frequency of DF27 is almost half the total (44.4%).

- DF27's main subclade, Z196, makes up a quarter of the Iberian male samples (25.9%).

- Originally I had found Z225 in Latin American samples and speculated that perhaps they may be the product of a colonial founder affect. With an Iberian Z225+ sample, that now seems very unlikely.

An update on the DF27 primers: Thomas has them working, but they are nested. Since nested primers require two PCR passes and is outside of their current single SNP ordering process, they are still trying to decide how to price it. Hopefully that will not deter them from making it available to the public. I'll keep you all informed when I get more info.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2012, 09:55:56 PM »

This thread seems to have drifted somewhat...

In an attempt to get it back on track-

This is a pretty small sample (27 men) from a very large and diverse region. It is probably rather early to say much about DF27 until it is tested across a larger Iberian sample and compared with Europe as a whole. (nb. this is not a cue for a deluge of celt-centric replies)

If we buy into "allele surfing during a population range expansion" as a mechanism, then DF27 might originate somewhere more central.

Does finding an Iberian Z225+ rule out a colonial expansion in latin america? I would say it was entirely consistent with it.

I don't see any reason to think that the Iberian P312* found in countless studies isn't DF27, especially those studies that have associated SRY2627 and M153. That is saying a lot.

The chances of one in 27 Iberian men testing Z225+ and his ancestor being the founder of 6 Latin American men from different countries seem very unlikely. The more likely scenario is that Z225 is a regional Iberian SNP.
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realdealt
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« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2012, 01:03:24 PM »

Two more persons of Iberian ancestry have tested DF27+ (positive). They are:
Sánchez - kit 193923
Zaldívar - kit 149550

Both are in the R-P312 project.

Robert
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 01:04:29 PM by realdealt » Logged
realdealt
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« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2012, 02:20:12 PM »

I hesitated to mention this here since it is not an Iberian, but there is another DF27+ to be found in the Italy DNA Project. The surname is Petrone, kit N104559 with origins in Acri Cosenza, Italy which is in far southern Italy.

Robert
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2012, 02:38:49 AM »

Richard R, I just want to make sure I understood this because ISOGG was thinking that Z225 is parallel to DF27.

There is at least one man DF27+ man in the 1000 HG Project who is Z225/Z229+ and there is at least one other DF27+ man who is Z225/Z229- ?
Right?  That's how we'd know Z225 is downstream of DF27.

About a month ago, the 1000 Genomes Project made the data available for their Iberian samples. Here is my analysis of the 27 samples. Please note that there were originally 74 samples, of which half were women, some were related (son-father pairs) and some did not have low coverage data.

Here is the breakdown:  

SNPFrequency
DF27+44.4% (12 of 27)
... DF27*14.8% (4 of 27)
... Z196+25.9% (7 of 27)
... Z225+3.7% (1 of 27)
L21+7.4% (2 of 27)
U152+7.4% (2 of 27)
L23*3.7% (1 of 27)
P312*3.7% (1 of 27)
U106+3.7% (1 of 27)
Total R1b70.4% (19 of 27)


- Not surprisingly, R1b is quite high (70.4%). This is in line with published papers (Busby, Myres, Cruciani, etc.).

- As can be seen, the overall frequency of DF27 is almost half the total (44.4%).

- DF27's main subclade, Z196, makes up a quarter of the Iberian male samples (25.9%).

- Originally I had found Z225 in Latin American samples and speculated that perhaps they may be the product of a colonial founder affect. With an Iberian Z225+ sample, that now seems very unlikely.

An update on the DF27 primers: Thomas has them working, but they are nested. Since nested primers require two PCR passes and is outside of their current single SNP ordering process, they are still trying to decide how to price it. Hopefully that will not deter them from making it available to the public. I'll keep you all informed when I get more info.
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« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 02:39:21 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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razyn
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« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2012, 07:50:30 AM »

There was just one Z225 in the Iberian samples, but according to Henry Bohemia there were six in Puerto Rican samples (in 1000 genomes) in which Iberian ancestry is a pretty reasonable guess.

There are a lot of 1418 guys in the Puerto Rican surname project, mostly under P312 Needs Deep Clade, but six or eight also under M269 ditto.  Have you mined this one for guys to "encourage" to test Z225 (and join the R-P312 project)?  The 1418 guys may not be the ones to ask, I know we are looking for DF27+ with Z196- but I don't yet know what STR signature might apply.  

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/puertoricansurname/default.aspx?section=yresults

Some of them may already be the 1000 Genomes guys, I don't know how to correlate the ID numbers of that project (when they are even known) with FTDNA kits.  Our friend Arnault Sallaberry (M153) is in the PR surname project, but he wouldn't be Z225.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 07:53:39 AM by razyn » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2012, 08:35:25 AM »

Z225 forms its own branch below DF27. The 1KG samples were from Iberia, Puerto Rico, Mexico and Colombia.

To date, no FTDNA samples have tested Z225+, so I don't think they will include it in their tree until someone does. Unfortunately Z225 to date has been tested almost entirely by people of non-Iberian ancestry.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 09:00:20 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2012, 09:23:42 AM »

Z225 forms its own branch below DF27. The 1KG samples were from Iberia, Puerto Rico, Mexico and Colombia.

To date, no FTDNA samples have tested Z225+, so I don't think they will include it in their tree until someone does. Unfortunately Z225 to date has been tested almost entirely by people of non-Iberian ancestry.

Thanks, Richard.

As best I can keep up, I have posted a DF27 phylogenetic descendancy tree chart. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/ It is also saved in the Files section as a .jpg file.


SRY2627 is M167 and has been called an Iberian clade although we find it in places like Germany, Benelux and Isles as well.  It's brother, L165, is the one that Ethnoancestry called a Norse marker for its northern Scottish Isles/Scandinavian connection.

Z209 is where the North/South cluster fits. It is quite far flung across Europe and we can see at the bottom that this is where M153, the Basque marker, fits in.

Apparently Z225 is Iberian, but we don't know that much about it yet.

DF27 is every bit the peer of L21 and U152.  I'd love to see extensive testing of it and its subclaces in Iberia, France and possibly, Italy.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 09:29:34 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2012, 10:40:27 AM »

But the important point here is that Y-DNA haplogroup does not equal ethnic identity.

It ought to be a condition of signing up to this and other GG forums that each member agrees to that statement.
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« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2012, 03:06:28 PM »

Z225 forms its own branch below DF27. The 1KG samples were from Iberia, Puerto Rico, Mexico and Colombia.

To date, no FTDNA samples have tested Z225+, so I don't think they will include it in their tree until someone does. Unfortunately Z225 to date has been tested almost entirely by people of non-Iberian ancestry.

Thanks, Richard.

As best I can keep up, I have posted a DF27 phylogenetic descendancy tree chart. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/ It is also saved in the Files section as a .jpg file.


SRY2627 is M167 and has been called an Iberian clade although we find it in places like Germany, Benelux and Isles as well.  It's brother, L165, is the one that Ethnoancestry called a Norse marker for its northern Scottish Isles/Scandinavian connection.

Z209 is where the North/South cluster fits. It is quite far flung across Europe and we can see at the bottom that this is where M153, the Basque marker, fits in.

Apparently Z225 is Iberian, but we don't know that much about it yet.

DF27 is every bit the peer of L21 and U152.  I'd love to see extensive testing of it and its subclaces in Iberia, France and possibly, Italy.

If DF27, L176.2, M-153, SRY2627 are essentially putative clades for Iberia or specific regions of Iberia, what should we make of it?

Arch
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razyn
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« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2012, 03:50:23 PM »

If DF27, L176.2, M-153, SRY2627 are essentially putative clades for Iberia or specific regions of Iberia, what should we make of it?

Nothing, that's just blowing putative smoke.  One might think that, looking at a 2011 (or earlier) ISOGG tree that was unaware of DF27; but not if you look at Mike's picture imbedded in your post (which is based on very current testing and discussion of it) and actually think about what it means.  DF27, Z196, the line below it through Z220, and most of L176.2 are spread clear across Europe -- from its presently Slavic eastern parts through its westernmost fringes -- with some later subclades showing regional pooling, including the line from Z178 down in Iberia; some fairly high percentage of SRY2627, and as far as we know Z225, seem also strongest there.  On the other hand, L165 seems much more northern.  It seems reasonable to expect that there will be more branches discovered, with more testing (especially WTY and full genome testing) that isn't biased toward specific areas of western Europe from which many immigrants came to the Americas long ago.  Some of the putative branches we don't know about may be in places currently known as Romania, Ukraine, Poland, and the regions around them.

All of which is too putative for words; but the SNPs line up the way Mike's chart indicates.  That has a sequential frame, with geographical implications, and the SNPs themselves patently don't spread from ice age Iberia eastward.
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« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2012, 04:18:18 PM »

If DF27, L176.2, M-153, SRY2627 are essentially putative clades for Iberia or specific regions of Iberia, what should we make of it?

Arch, do you think you can recruit the L176.2+ SRY2627- L165- guys to test for for Z262?

Z262 is downstream of L176.2 and upstream of SRY2627. R-Z262* guys would be brothers to SRY2627 guys.  I'm just looking for some kind of pattern. I know of Z262* one guy right now. He is from England.

We have an L176.2* (L176.2+ Z262- L165-) guy from Spain as well as one from Germany.

If we could find SRY2627's L165+ cousins somewhere else besides the Isles and Scandinavia that might be helpful too, particularly from Spain with unusual haplotypes. We do have one from Germany but one does not a trend make.

There must have been a Z262+ SRY2627- guy in the 1000 HG project. Where was he from?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 04:21:17 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2012, 01:18:12 AM »

If DF27, L176.2, M-153, SRY2627 are essentially putative clades for Iberia or specific regions of Iberia, what should we make of it?

Arch, do you think you can recruit the L176.2+ SRY2627- L165- guys to test for for Z262?

Z262 is downstream of L176.2 and upstream of SRY2627. R-Z262* guys would be brothers to SRY2627 guys.  I'm just looking for some kind of pattern. I know of Z262* one guy right now. He is from England.

We have an L176.2* (L176.2+ Z262- L165-) guy from Spain as well as one from Germany.

If we could find SRY2627's L165+ cousins somewhere else besides the Isles and Scandinavia that might be helpful too, particularly from Spain with unusual haplotypes. We do have one from Germany but one does not a trend make.

There must have been a Z262+ SRY2627- guy in the 1000 HG project. Where was he from?

Victor Mas would be a good candidate. Perhaps we could use some of the funds in the SRY2627 project to test him and a couple of other L176.2 guys. The money is just kind of sitting there doing nothing. I haven't seen Victor around in a while. I would be interested in Isidro's results, so waiting to hear on his. FYI. Albert Pleis also tested for downstream clades too.

Arch
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