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Jean M
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2012, 05:25:46 PM »

Happy to hear it Goldenhind. Peace to you.
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rms2
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2012, 06:14:15 PM »

When I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna test, R1b in the British Isles was considered "Celtic" (but Celtic only at second hand - in reality, it was "Basque"), and I1 (I1a then) was "invader" (Anglo-Saxon and Viking).

I actually hoped for an I1 result. I'll spare you all the background story, but I wanted to be a Viking. I would have settled for Anglo-Saxon, as they were pretty much the same folks in different time periods.

When I got my R1b1 result (that was as far as FTDNA's predictions went at the time - to P25), I experienced a little MHD, although not for long. About that time "S21" (U106) was coming into its own and offered the promise of entrance into Teutonic Valhalla for lowly R1b1 guys like me. Alas, I failed that test, as well, and was condemned with the rest of the Basques to an eternity in Niflheim.

I got over it, learned to look only on the unwrinkled side of Hel's face, and came to enjoy the truth, which is ultimately more fulfilling than any fantasy.

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2012, 07:33:00 PM »

When I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna test, R1b in the British Isles was considered "Celtic" (but Celtic only at second hand - in reality, it was "Basque"), and I1 (I1a then) was "invader" (Anglo-Saxon and Viking).

I actually hoped for an I1 result. I'll spare you all the background story, but I wanted to be a Viking. I would have settled for Anglo-Saxon, as they were pretty much the same folks in different time periods.

When I got my R1b1 result (that was as far as FTDNA's predictions went at the time - to P25), I experienced a little MHD, although not for long. About that time "S21" (U106) was coming into its own and offered the promise of entrance into Teutonic Valhalla for lowly R1b1 guys like me. Alas, I failed that test, as well, and was condemned with the rest of the Basques to an eternity in Niflheim.

I got over it, learned to look only on the unwrinkled side of Hel's face, and came to enjoy the truth, which is ultimately more fulfilling than any fantasy.



Valhalla bah, give me Tír na nÓg (land of the young) or Magh Meall (plain of joy) anyday.  ;)
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2012, 08:11:33 PM »

When I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna test, R1b in the British Isles was considered "Celtic" (but Celtic only at second hand - in reality, it was "Basque"), and I1 (I1a then) was "invader" (Anglo-Saxon and Viking).

I actually hoped for an I1 result. I'll spare you all the background story, but I wanted to be a Viking. I would have settled for Anglo-Saxon, as they were pretty much the same folks in different time periods.

When I got my R1b1 result (that was as far as FTDNA's predictions went at the time - to P25), I experienced a little MHD, although not for long. About that time "S21" (U106) was coming into its own and offered the promise of entrance into Teutonic Valhalla for lowly R1b1 guys like me. Alas, I failed that test, as well, and was condemned with the rest of the Basques to an eternity in Niflheim.

I got over it, learned to look only on the unwrinkled side of Hel's face, and came to enjoy the truth, which is ultimately more fulfilling than any fantasy.



Valhalla bah, give me Tír na nÓg (land of the young) or Magh Meall (plain of joy) anyday.  ;)

Well, now, I didn't know any better.

I did not realize how truly blessed I was to NOT be a Germanic!

I'm a happy-go-lucky, alcohol-tolerant Celt, and glad of it. :-)
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OConnor
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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2012, 08:20:19 PM »

I wanted to be Irish, and not Norse.
 
When r1b types like L21 were found in Scandinavia it seemed people were quick to suggest they were descended from Irish slaves. I don't believe that. Not for the most part.

I have been reading some stuff about European Continental history to  try to see how peoples moved and settled.

I was surprised to read about things like the Franks, and the 30 years war, and the Spanish Reconquest. It's all new to me.

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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2012, 10:58:57 PM »


Well, now, I didn't know any better.

I did not realize how truly blessed I was to NOT be a Germanic!

I'm a happy-go-lucky, alcohol-tolerant Celt, and glad of it. :-)

I was reading something about the Celtic use of wolfhounds, and accounts by Romans (I think Caesar, actually) that remarked how Celts previously (I guess before Roman intervention) excelled the Germans in prowess. The Volcae were mentioned in particular, and Roman writers were amazed at how large the dogs were. It took a hardy race to breed and train them.

If Brennus stayed in Rome, we all may be speaking something very different today.
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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2012, 07:51:57 AM »


Well, now, I didn't know any better.

I did not realize how truly blessed I was to NOT be a Germanic!

I'm a happy-go-lucky, alcohol-tolerant Celt, and glad of it. :-)

I was reading something about the Celtic use of wolfhounds, and accounts by Romans (I think Caesar, actually) that remarked how Celts previously (I guess before Roman intervention) excelled the Germans in prowess. The Volcae were mentioned in particular, and Roman writers were amazed at how large the dogs were. It took a hardy race to breed and train them.

If Brennus stayed in Rome, we all may be speaking something very different today
.

Oh, yes, there is plenty to be happy and proud about being the y-dna descendant of a Celt.

It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings, back in the 1960s). Later, as I grew up, I became interested in history and was fascinated by the Vikings. That interest led me to the Vikings' predecessors, the Germanic tribes of the Migration Period and beyond. I enjoyed the mythology and the saga literature.

But when I became a man - a middle aged man - with a full set of 67 STR markers and SNP test results under my belt, I had to put away childish things. ;-)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 07:57:12 AM by rms2 » Logged

razyn
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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2012, 10:52:17 AM »

It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings, back in the 1960s).
I still have the soundtrack album (LP), but I don't think I have a working turntable.  Stirring stuff.  I was a Viking for a while, until I found the error in my paper trail.  Then I was waffling between being a Saponi or a Nottoway Indian for a while, until I took a Y-DNA test.  (Heinegg was sooo wrong.)  This week I'm Z220+, and looking for a suitably cool and ancient ethnicity with which to identify, erroneously, as I await further SNP test results.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2012, 10:55:24 AM »

It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings, back in the 1960s).
I still have the soundtrack album (LP), but I don't think I have a working turntable.  Stirring stuff.  I was a Viking for a while, until I found the error in my paper trail.  Then I was waffling between being a Saponi or a Nottoway Indian for a while, until I took a Y-DNA test.  (Heinegg was sooo wrong.)  This week I'm Z220+, and looking for a suitably cool and ancient ethnicity with which to identify, erroneously, as I await further SNP test results.

Razyn,

Is this why you left the Swedish Colonial Society!?
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razyn
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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2012, 12:13:56 PM »

Razyn,

Is this why you left the Swedish Colonial Society!?
I was never a member, but yes, it's why I quit doing New Sweden research.  There was never any money in it, it ceased to be an act of filial piety, and it amounted to doing the hard part of the late Peter Craig's work for him, gratis.
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rms2
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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2012, 06:10:58 PM »

It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings, back in the 1960s).
I still have the soundtrack album (LP), but I don't think I have a working turntable.  Stirring stuff.  I was a Viking for a while, until I found the error in my paper trail.  Then I was waffling between being a Saponi or a Nottoway Indian for a while, until I took a Y-DNA test.  (Heinegg was sooo wrong.)  This week I'm Z220+, and looking for a suitably cool and ancient ethnicity with which to identify, erroneously, as I await further SNP test results.

I'm sure you'll find one! :-)

For me, it's the ancient Britons, since my closest matches all seem to come from the West Midlands of England or from Wales or have surnames that are common in those two places. Plus, when I had Dr. McDonald run my Family Finder raw data, he gave me a result of "100% English".

I noticed the British Celtic tribe the Cornovii were all over the area where my matches seem to cluster. They seem pretty cool and had their own auxiliary legion in the Roman army. So, until further notice, I'm Cornovian. ;-)
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2012, 07:14:14 PM »

It's just that as a kid I somehow picked up the idea that the Vikings were cool (probably from watching the anachronistic film, The Vikings, back in the 1960s).
I still have the soundtrack album (LP), but I don't think I have a working turntable.  Stirring stuff.  I was a Viking for a while, until I found the error in my paper trail.  Then I was waffling between being a Saponi or a Nottoway Indian for a while, until I took a Y-DNA test.  (Heinegg was sooo wrong.)  This week I'm Z220+, and looking for a suitably cool and ancient ethnicity with which to identify, erroneously, as I await further SNP test results.

I'm sure you'll find one! :-)

For me, it's the ancient Britons, since my closest matches all seem to come from the West Midlands of England or from Wales or have surnames that are common in those two places.

I noticed the British Celtic tribe the Cornovii were all over the area where my matches seem to cluster. They seem pretty cool and had their own auxiliary legion in the Roman army. So, until further notice, I'm Cornovian. ;-)

I can also relate since my closest matches have surnames indicative of West Midlands/Devon ancestry - Brittain, Bengough (Herefordshire). There is also the possible connection to Cornwall.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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rms2
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« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2012, 09:17:55 PM »

I read somewhere that the Celts in that area used the Ewart Park style sword at one time. Apparently a number of them have been found in the area. There are a couple of decent photos of the type here.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 09:19:16 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2012, 10:25:36 PM »

I read somewhere that the Celts in that area used the Ewart Park style sword at one time. Apparently a number of them have been found in the area. There are a couple of decent photos of the type here.

That's a nice piece. Go figure; the fellow who makes it is named Neil. It looks similar to those Halstatt type swords, so I wonder if it is related?
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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2012, 11:10:49 AM »

How many z220 or otherwise downstream z196 samples were found in the 1000 genomes project(either all or iberian)?
Earlier it was reported that 56 % of the Z196+ samples were in the Z270/Z274 range.
And is f.e. Z268 downstream Z209; or the other way around?
Hans van Vliet
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razyn
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« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2012, 06:39:49 PM »

I'm glad to see you on the right thread, and currently the most entertaining forum, Hans.

I look forward to whatever Rich Rocca has to say to someone who has dutifully tested (positive) for both Z268 and Z209.  Has he wasted about 20 €?  And, when two SNPs are on the same level, how is one supposed to know which one to test?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2012, 09:29:19 PM »

I'm glad to see you on the right thread, and currently the most entertaining forum, Hans.

I look forward to whatever Rich Rocca has to say to someone who has dutifully tested (positive) for both Z268 and Z209.  Has he wasted about 20 €?  And, when two SNPs are on the same level, how is one supposed to know which one to test?

Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.
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spanjool
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« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2012, 12:47:59 AM »


Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.

So all the SNPs mentioned in one cluster: f.e. Z209, Z215..Z296 are on the same level and they all were also positive for Z294 above them.
Otherwise in all 1000 genomes samples tested positive for Z220 all the members from this cluster were found.
And not f.e. just one.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2012, 09:22:57 AM »


Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.

So all the SNPs mentioned in one cluster: f.e. Z209, Z215..Z296 are on the same level and they all were also positive for Z294 above them.
Otherwise in all 1000 genomes samples tested positive for Z220 all the members from this cluster were found.
And not f.e. just one.

Correct,  Z209 and the others are at the same level and therefore are all Z294. All Z220+ folks need not test for any of the ones in the Z209 branch as they will be positive for all of them. The only value for testing one kit for them is to get them properly placed on the ISOGG tree.
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razyn
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« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2012, 10:21:41 AM »

Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.

It would make sense to me if FTDNA didn't offer tests for SNPs that don't sort anything, but did offer tests for SNPs that do.  But I don't know how to tell which is which.  I don't see how project administrators, as a class, could be expected to know.

There is also some funny business going on with STR markers -- particularly on palindromic STRs (385, 464 etc.) -- the causes of which apparently aren't SNPs, but are binary in nature.

There are also SNPs, real ones, that are not part of the tree diagram because they occur in more than one haplogroup.  Yet they are both binary and inherited, so they must cause branching of the respective trees in which they occur.  The one I have is L484, which has been found "derived near" E1b1a1, J2b2, R-P312 (me, to name but one), and T.  There are other SNPs with a similar history of haplogroup wandering; examples are L69, L86, and L239.  I only know about them from a spreadsheet Adriano Squecco shared with me -- so those are based on 23andMe results, and in my case at least, don't show up in the displayed SNP results on FTDNA projects.  (I assume that would be true for any SNP results tested and found at another company.  But I did transfer those autosomal, Illumina chip v3 results to FTDNA -- so they could discover it again, if anybody cared.  Try rs9785797.)

It seems to me as a layman (in this field, anyway) that any inherited binary event would have implications for things like prehistoric migration sleuthing; percentages in an isolated population that reveal specific STR cluster patterns; the appearance of star charts from Network analysis; and perhaps TMRCA calculation.  Some of that might even turn out to be important.

Or, not.  If somebody knows better, kindly reassure me.  Thanks in advance.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2012, 11:18:31 AM »

Since there is no real scientific way of knowing if one is above or below the other, I just tell folks to test the lowest number. Since most people never test for more than one SNP per level, it keep things cleaner if most are tested for the same SNP.

It would make sense to me if FTDNA didn't offer tests for SNPs that don't sort anything, but did offer tests for SNPs that do.  But I don't know how to tell which is which.  I don't see how project administrators, as a class, could be expected to know.

There is also some funny business going on with STR markers -- particularly on palindromic STRs (385, 464 etc.) -- the causes of which apparently aren't SNPs, but are binary in nature.

There are also SNPs, real ones, that are not part of the tree diagram because they occur in more than one haplogroup.  Yet they are both binary and inherited, so they must cause branching of the respective trees in which they occur.  The one I have is L484, which has been found "derived near" E1b1a1, J2b2, R-P312 (me, to name but one), and T.  There are other SNPs with a similar history of haplogroup wandering; examples are L69, L86, and L239.  I only know about them from a spreadsheet Adriano Squecco shared with me -- so those are based on 23andMe results, and in my case at least, don't show up in the displayed SNP results on FTDNA projects.  (I assume that would be true for any SNP results tested and found at another company.  But I did transfer those autosomal, Illumina chip v3 results to FTDNA -- so they could discover it again, if anybody cared.  Try rs9785797.)

It seems to me as a layman (in this field, anyway) that any inherited binary event would have implications for things like prehistoric migration sleuthing; percentages in an isolated population that reveal specific STR cluster patterns; the appearance of star charts from Network analysis; and perhaps TMRCA calculation.  Some of that might even turn out to be important.

Or, not.  If somebody knows better, kindly reassure me.  Thanks in advance.

The line of 'worth' is blurry for some of these fast mutating SNPs such as L69 and they should be treated more like STRs or place holders for yet undiscovered SNPs. I know this has been the case in two separate branches of L21.
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« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2012, 02:06:33 PM »

Happy to hear it Goldenhind. Peace to you.

Thank you. I'm afraid I have a tendency to be one of those maverick types for whom doctrinaire conclusions prove to be an irresistable challenge. I can assure you that this tendency is not confined to genetics, and is likely to continue long after the puzzle of my subclade is finally resolved (assuming it ever is).
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rms2
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« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2012, 04:48:16 PM »

Is it entirely fair to imply that those who look at the evidence and reach a conclusion that differs from one's own are necessarily being "doctrinaire"?

We disagree on U106 in Britain, for example. I think the evidence is overwhelming for my position, but it's hardly a matter of rigid "doctrine".

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 04:51:26 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2012, 08:53:32 PM »

Is it entirely fair to imply that those who look at the evidence and reach a conclusion that differs from one's own are necessarily being "doctrinaire"?

We disagree on U106 in Britain, for example. I think the evidence is overwhelming for my position, but it's hardly a matter of rigid "doctrine".



In my opinion the beliefs that all U106 was confined to the area of the Nordic Bronze Age culture and hence is necessarily of Germanic origin, or that no U106 could have reached Britain before the Anglo-Saxons, have become doctrines. While they could ultimately both prove to be correct, as far as I am concerned, they remain unproven at present.

The earlier belief that all of P312 is Celtic seems to be weakening, but I suspect it still has its supporters. I have seen too many claims that all of P312 in Scandinavia is a result of Viking slave taking or modern migration to think it has totally been put to rest.

My use of the term "doctrinaire" applies to the theories, not necessarily to those who accept them. I use the term to mean a theory from which dissent will not be tolerated.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 08:59:42 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2012, 09:05:22 PM »

Is it entirely fair to imply that those who look at the evidence and reach a conclusion that differs from one's own are necessarily being "doctrinaire"?

We disagree on U106 in Britain, for example. I think the evidence is overwhelming for my position, but it's hardly a matter of rigid "doctrine".



In my opinion the beliefs that all U106 is of Germanic origin, or that no U106 could have reached Britain before the Anglo-Saxons, have both become doctrinal.
They may even both prove to be correct, but as far as I am concerned, they remain unproven at present.

The earlier belief that all of P312 is Celtic seems to be weakening, but I suspect it still has its supporters. My use of the term "doctrinaire" applies to the theories, not necessarily to those who accept them. I use the term to mean a theory from which dissent will not be tolerated.


Well, I don't visit all dna chat forums, but I don't know of any where "dissent will not be tolerated".

A good argument is generally enjoyed by most of us.

Of course, the idea that U106 is mostly Germanic is unproven, although I think the evidence for that opinion is overwhelming. But "doctrinal"?

The idea that nothing much can be said about U106 until every possible genetic stone has been overturned - and when are we to expect that to finally be accomplished? - is as much a "belief" and a "doctrine" as the opinion that U106 is mostly Germanic.

I wonder who ever claimed that "all of P312 is Celtic". I don't recall anyone ever doing that.

The same goes for U106. Who ever said all of it is Germanic? Every last bit, without exception? I never claimed that, nor would I.

I think you are mischaracterizing the arguments you apparently find so offensive.
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