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rms2
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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2012, 01:50:25 PM »

It's a good thing we have film footage of the most famous Cimmerian in celluloid history.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2012, 02:22:47 PM »

Golly! This old thread pops up again. So we can see that Vince was right and I was wrong about Otzi. :)

The route of the fleeing Cimmerians that we know most about was into Anatolia, since it was described by Herodotus and they are mentioned there in a few other written sources. Archaeology shows that the Cimmerians also moved up the Danube into the Carpathian Basin in the 9th and 8th centuries BC. See Cambridge Ancient History, vol. 3, part 2 (1991), pp. 555-60 for a fuller coverage of the sources.

Interesting. I was just wondering if a different sort of R1b can be found in Anatolia, NW Iran and Armenia that correlates with this movement. i read somewhere by a post by DMXX that they settled in Iran and Armenia as well. The language of these people is still in doubt I see.

L23* is strong in those areas.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2012, 03:04:10 PM »

Golly! This old thread pops up again. So we can see that Vince was right and I was wrong about Otzi. :)

The route of the fleeing Cimmerians that we know most about was into Anatolia, since it was described by Herodotus and they are mentioned there in a few other written sources. Archaeology shows that the Cimmerians also moved up the Danube into the Carpathian Basin in the 9th and 8th centuries BC. See Cambridge Ancient History, vol. 3, part 2 (1991), pp. 555-60 for a fuller coverage of the sources.

Interesting. I was just wondering if a different sort of R1b can be found in Anatolia, NW Iran and Armenia that correlates with this movement. i read somewhere by a post by DMXX that they settled in Iran and Armenia as well. The language of these people is still in doubt I see.

L23* is strong in those areas.

Interesting. Isn't the majority of M269 , L23 as well? Where do you suppose L23* originated? Is it also true that West Asian R1b is usually L23* without any further mutations? What is the range of R1b1a2* in West Asia? And wikipedia says the Kurds of Kazakhstan have R1b*. Is that true? Seems wrong to me. Maybe its just a different branch of M73 of which very little is known. Any idea where M73 originated?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 03:09:39 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
Arch Y.
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« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2012, 02:44:15 AM »

Once again I repost here a post from my blog, for those of you who have shaken the dust of DNA Forums from your feet.

A question that comes up often is whether Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b1b2 and its subclades really spread into Europe from the Pontic steppe with the Indo-Europeans. Or did it spread earlier from Anatolia, with the first farmers? I now tackle this issue head on by explaining

    * the problems with the idea of a Neolithic spread
    * why we are unlikely to find early subclades of R1b1b2 on the Pontic steppe today


Since Peopling of Europe has been split into sections now, I wanted to make sure that each section could be read independently. So Indo-European genetics has had a new touch. You can go straight to Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b1b2 and get a summary of this issue:

Quote
Subsequent mutations further down the line produced two huge sub-clades with clusters of offspring mutations - the sign of a population in rapid growth and spread. So a more recent study of the haplogroup suggested that it spread into Europe with the first farmers from Anatolia. There are several problems with that idea. We now know from a study of the route of Neolithic cultivars that farming spread into Europe from the Levant, not Anatolia. Its island-hopping progress to Greece alone took several thousand years. Overall from Cyprus (8,500 BC) to Scotland (4,000 BC) and Scandinavia (3,500 BC) farming took 5,000 years to spread over Europe. That scarcely matches the great burst of U106 and P312 around 3,000 BC. Furthermore carriers of R1b1b2+ share with carriers of R1a1a a high level of lactose tolerance, which appears to have arisen with dairy farming, rather than in the earliest farmers. In fact the type common in Europe most probably arose on the Pontic-Caspian steppe. ...

The counter-argument has always been that we don't find early subclades of R1b1b2 in Ukraine today. I wouldn't expect them. The descendants of the peoples round about the Sea of Azov that I conjecture carried R1b1b2+ were the Cimmerians, who were forced off the steppe round about 700 BC. A map and evidence can now be found in Iron Age: Cimmerians and steel. If I am right, we should find their descendants particularly around the upper reaches of the Danube.

Something about lactose intolerance surfaced up when I saw a dermatologist about a month ago. She has written a few research papers on the matter and how it affects a person's skin condition. She specifically pointed out to me the only European people who have true lactose tolerance are the Finns. She also suggested I lay off on all dairy products and that's quite difficult for me since I put cheese practically on everything I eat. Also, I have noticed the older I get that every once in a while I will get that feeling to visit the porcelain god to take care of back office business after drinking milk or having it with cereal. I just thought it was interesting her papers on the matter brought up the issues with lactose intolerance and skin conditions.

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rms2
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« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2012, 07:42:40 AM »

She specifically pointed out to me the only European people who have true lactose tolerance are the Finns . . .

Arch

Huh?

I'm no expert, but I have never heard or read any such thing, and I think that would be BIG news, were it true.

There are plenty of non-Finns who are lactase persistent, i.e., whose bodies continue to manufacture the enzyme lactase all their adult lives. And that is what enables them to ingest milk and other dairy products without the problems that accompany lactose intolerance.

Your body either makes lactase or it doesn't.
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2012, 09:08:34 AM »

She specifically pointed out to me the only European people who have true lactose tolerance are the Finns . . .

Arch

Huh?

I'm no expert, but I have never heard or read any such thing, and I think that would be BIG news, were it true.

There are plenty of non-Finns who are lactase persistent, i.e., whose bodies continue to manufacture the enzyme lactase all their adult lives. And that is what enables them to ingest milk and other dairy products without the problems that accompany lactose intolerance.

Your body either makes lactase or it doesn't.

I know. I'll scan in her papers today or tomorrow. Her name is Dr. Madeline Hueng, and I was almost in an argument with her about it, but she's doctor and I'm not. However, she did point out the lactose that the human digestive system cannot digest and the impact it has on skin clarity, etc. It was an interesting conversation to say the least.

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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2012, 12:10:05 PM »

She specifically pointed out to me the only European people who have true lactose tolerance are the Finns . . .

Arch

Huh?

I'm no expert, but I have never heard or read any such thing, and I think that would be BIG news, were it true.

There are plenty of non-Finns who are lactase persistent, i.e., whose bodies continue to manufacture the enzyme lactase all their adult lives. And that is what enables them to ingest milk and other dairy products without the problems that accompany lactose intolerance.

Your body either makes lactase or it doesn't.

Finns probably obtained lactose tolerance by admixture with IE speaking Northern Europeans. I really doubt this doctor's story.
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Jean M
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« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2012, 12:26:20 PM »

The Finns tend to have two mutations for lactose tolerance, 22018A or rs182549(C) and 13910T. But that is common in northern Europeans generally.

As it happens there is a new paper out on lactose tolerance. Timo Vuorisalo et al., High Lactose Tolerance in North Europeans a result of migration, not in situ milk consumption, Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, volume 55, number 2 (spring 2012):163–74. I'm just trying to get a minute to read it.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 12:44:23 PM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2012, 12:43:14 PM »

The Finns tend to have two mutations for lactose tolerance, 22018A or rs182549(C) and 13910T. But that is common in northern Europeans generally.

As it happens there is a new paper out on lactose tolerance. Timo Vuorisalo et al., High Lactose Tolerance in North Europeans a result of migration, not in situ milk consumption, Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, volume 55, number 2 (spring 2012):163–74. I'm just trying to get a minute to read it.

I have both of those mutations, as well, as my recent Family Finder raw data show.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10362.0
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Jean M
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« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2012, 12:44:37 PM »

I think I understand what the doctor meant. The Finns have an exceptionally high level of LP in the population - 82%.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 12:44:47 PM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2012, 12:48:34 PM »

13910 is also known as rs4988235, as Dr. Ann Turner explained on Rootsweb back in February when I asked her about it.

Quote from: Ann Turner
They are the same thing, just different ways of reporting the mutation. The 13910 is usually written with a dash in front of it, -13910. That means the
position of the mutation is 13,910 bases upstream of the LCT gene. It is
involved in gene expression, not in the genetic code for the lactase
enzyme.

Later this mutation was entered into dbSNP and assigned a catalog number,
rs4988235. The mutation was originally reported in the minus orientation,
with the alleles C and T. If you were looking at the other strand of the
double helix (the plus strand), the possible alleles would be the
complementary bases G and A. It is now more common to report all SNPs in
the plus orientation.

Ann Turner

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Jean M
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« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2012, 01:15:54 PM »

Thanks. That made me pick up an error in my text. I had rs4988235(T). It should be rs4988235(A).
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rms2
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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2012, 01:54:49 PM »

Thanks. That made me pick up an error in my text. I had rs4988235(T). It should be rs4988235(A).

Glad to be of service. I have the homozygous "AA" there, so I got LP from both of my parents. Same thing at rs182549, where I have the "TT" that signifies LP, as well.

Over on that first farmers thread, JeanL just mentioned SJAPL and Longar, where some LP was found in some remains in a Neolithic context, circa 3000 BC. It is too bad they didn't get any ancient y-dna from those sites.

Of course, LP is as likely to have been first transmitted by a female as by a male.

Here is a photo of my maternal grandfather that puts me in mind of lactase persistence.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
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acekon
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2012, 07:23:15 PM »

 Very broad region and markers of interest; DYS 464 patterns [14_15_16_17/18/19] and other possible matches spread across possible Cimmerian areas.

1]U98VT[1180 a.d   skeleton HB02   Podlazice], Ceskoslovensko
 markers compared/genetic distance. DYS 464?
   
B8632   Hrncirik   26/2
EMVRN    Rehacek   26/2
TMGGE   Eskulic   Ceskoslovensko 26/4
3NT7K   Duschanek   Mestec - Chroustovic, Czechoslovakia        26/5
EKXJ7   Necsefor    Woloshka, Ukraine    Unknown        25/1
RBNQT   Gabert   Carani, Romania    R1b1a2*      25/1
DB9H7   Katranov   Ukraine    R1b1a2a (tested)        25/3
CX94E   R1b1b2a - L23EE Modal   Unknown    Unknown    25/3
D3TNG   Skoda   Split, Croatia    R1b1a2a1     25/4
XWBWH   Hrncirik   Frystak, Holesov, Czech Republic, Czech Republic        22/1
A7ERS    Glowiak   Krzemienica near Rzeszow, Poland    R1b1a2a1 (tested)     22/2
WZBZP   Probasco   Wroclaw, Poland        22/2
9VVZY   Gilpin   Ireland    Unknown        22/3
KFEEH   Dolezel    Klopotovice, Czech Republic        22/3
MCE3H   Bořek   Czech Republic    Unknown    Other -   22/3
HANDW   Booher   Germany    Unknown        22/4

2] RTMAY/Kazakhstan markers compared/ genetic distance DYS 464 ?

RTMAY   Tut   Jezkazgan, Kazakhstan    Unknown    Other - Genebase    -    -
7EV4U   Gable   Pennsylvania, USA    R1b*        18/2
W75FV   R1b-E-Eur   Unknown     Unknown            18/3
DDHPK   Bartoszewski   Poland    R1b1a2a*        18/3
DB9H7   Katranov   Ukraine    R1b1a2a (tested)        18/3
2M759   Macak   Czech Republic             18/4
HFQK3   Kyrgyzstan   Kyrgyzstan        18/5
9M8X4   Hamsik   Czech Republic        17/2
XWBWH   Hrncirik   Frystak, Holesov, Czech Republic,      17/2
PSJYJ   Mardakhanian   Armenia    R1b1a2a (tested)    17/3

3]HFQK3 Krgyzstan markers compared/ genetic distance
DYS 464- 14_15_16_17

HFQK3   Kyrgyzstan   Kyrgyzstan    Unknown    Other - SMGF     -   -
DB9H7   Katranov   Ukraine       32/5
HANDW    Booher   Germany    32/5
2SFDH   Painter   Kirchardt, Baden, Germany    32/5
FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)    27/4
PNFBK   Bartos   Poland        25/4
JPKEU   Probasco   Wroclaw, Poland        25/5
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 08:23:40 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2012, 09:10:17 PM »

I know Jean is talking about genes but I think it is worth also mentioning that one issue that has been brought up in the past regarding the  Urnfield= Celtic migration idea (among many other things) is that in Iberia and Italy the urnfield distribution seems to actually specifically correspond to non-Celtic areas and indeed non-Indo-European areas of those countries i.e. the urnfields of Iberia and Italy seem to correlate with the Iberian and Etruscan areas.  That is pretty remarkable coincidence if that is all it is.  Some would see the  Raetian Alpine peoples and even the Basques as potentially peripherally related in some way to this too.   Even in France you could say that much of the Urnfield areas bypassed a lot of Celtic Gaul and fell into the later Iberian (bordering Aquitanian) area of SW France and the Belgic areas of NE France.  So to me Urnfield certainly has a poor correspondence with the most clear-cut areas associated with the early Celts when looked at in detail.  Yes, it overlaps partly with the somewhat ethnically hazy eastern edge of the Celtic Gaulish lands but it is a very poor match overall.   If you take a slighly Cunliffe-esque approach you could argue that Urnfielders were the opposition to the Celtic areas of much of Gallia Celtica, Celtic Iberia and the isles.  However, in reality I would think that its simply a case where archaeological culture and language/ethnic groupings dont have a simple match.


I think there are deeper underlying issues with the knowledge of Celtic influence in Iberia.  One may be attributed to how little information we have about just the general knowledge about the Iberians and Celts along the Catalan speaking regions. Was this due to Franco? In the United States when learning about Spanish history, nothing is ever mentioned about the Catalans (the linguistic area that is primarily Iberian). Matter of fact, many Californians such as myself for the longest time just assumed it was explored by Spaniards from Cadiz and the Portugese. We know more about the Portugese and Castillians than we know about the Catalans. What knowledge has been erased and overlaid with fascist agendas of Franco and the Spanish state? So much that we know so little about the Iberians, but yet they are the first people encountered by the Greeks and Romans in Western Europe. It just doesn't seem right that it's not taught or so little people know about the history of Spain from this particular region. Why is that?

There is evidence of Celtic culture in the Iberian regions of Catalonia, Valencia and Norde Catalonia. The Ilergetes (Llieda) are spoken of as being Celtic or Celtiberian at times. There are the Lusones, a Celtic tribe near the mouth of the Ebro R. who may be related to the Lusitanians or possibly Convenase Lugdunum (interestingly, the meeting place of both Celtic, Iberian, and Aquitani tribes) today's St Bertrand de Comminges. The villages in the Pyrenees exhibit Celtic like celebrations focused on the equinoxes, seasons, perhaps remnants of that influence of the Celts. If we can find Celtic influences such as the port of Narbonne and other Gallic villages along the Garonne, I would say there is much more south of the Pyrenees than what we truly know besides the famous Celtiberians around Zaragosa. Why is this information so hidden, or was it destroyed, lost or just simply told to be ignored by the Spanish government? Remember, Franco saw himself as some descendant of Visigothic kings. I'm sure it didn't sit well with him that the Visigoths were responsible for the expansion of the Kingdom of Tolouse at Barcelona with King Atauf and Wallia. Or that Ripoll (Catalonia) is more important than Madrid when it comes to the Visigothic culture and expansion of their kingdom. It mystifies me why so much data is lacking on the Iberian tribes and history along the eastern Iberian coastline when it long has been first points of contact with ancient seafarers, etc. who would have enough intelligence to write about their exploits.

To me it's not the lack of historical evidence of Celtic culture in Iberian speaking regions, it's the vacuum of knowledge that we have of this region for a myriad of reasons besides just a lack of interest.

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Jean M
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« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2012, 06:09:17 PM »

The counter-argument has always been that we don't find early subclades of R1b1b2 in Ukraine today. I wouldn't expect them.

OK. I was wrong.

R1b in Ukraine
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:10:27 PM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2012, 09:06:56 AM »

Once again I repost here a post from my blog, for those of you who have shaken the dust of DNA Forums from your feet.

A question that comes up often is whether Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b1b2 and its subclades really spread into Europe from the Pontic steppe with the Indo-Europeans. Or did it spread earlier from Anatolia, with the first farmers? I now tackle this issue head on by explaining

    * the problems with the idea of a Neolithic spread
    * why we are unlikely to find early subclades of R1b1b2 on the Pontic steppe today


Since Peopling of Europe has been split into sections now, I wanted to make sure that each section could be read independently. So Indo-European genetics has had a new touch. You can go straight to Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b1b2 and get a summary of this issue:

Quote
Subsequent mutations further down the line produced two huge sub-clades with clusters of offspring mutations - the sign of a population in rapid growth and spread. So a more recent study of the haplogroup suggested that it spread into Europe with the first farmers from Anatolia. There are several problems with that idea. We now know from a study of the route of Neolithic cultivars that farming spread into Europe from the Levant, not Anatolia. Its island-hopping progress to Greece alone took several thousand years. Overall from Cyprus (8,500 BC) to Scotland (4,000 BC) and Scandinavia (3,500 BC) farming took 5,000 years to spread over Europe. That scarcely matches the great burst of U106 and P312 around 3,000 BC. Furthermore carriers of R1b1b2+ share with carriers of R1a1a a high level of lactose tolerance, which appears to have arisen with dairy farming, rather than in the earliest farmers. In fact the type common in Europe most probably arose on the Pontic-Caspian steppe. ...

The counter-argument has always been that we don't find early subclades of R1b1b2 in Ukraine today. I wouldn't expect them. The descendants of the peoples round about the Sea of Azov that I conjecture carried R1b1b2+ were the Cimmerians, who were forced off the steppe round about 700 BC. A map and evidence can now be found in Iron Age: Cimmerians and steel. If I am right, we should find their descendants particularly around the upper reaches of the Danube.

I thought the Cimmerians was just a made up story by the Greeks since they didn't really have much knowledge of their world beyond the Black Sea and the Caucasus.

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Jean M
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« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2012, 07:05:52 PM »

I thought the Cimmerians was just a made up story by the Greeks since they didn't really have much knowledge of their world beyond the Black Sea and the Caucasus.

Taken a vow not to read my stuff ?  :)

Quote
These people lived on the very edge of history, glimpsed in early sources as the Gimiraia (Greek), Gimmirai (Akkadian) or Gomer (Biblical). For Homer the distant land of the Cimmerians was wrapped in mist and cloud. This was so vague that some commentators have dismissed the Cimmerians as mythical. Yet they were all too real for those on the wrong end of Cimmerian swords. They swept into Anatolia around 700 BC and terrorised it for a century.
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« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2012, 12:10:27 AM »

I thought the Cimmerians was just a made up story by the Greeks since they didn't really have much knowledge of their world beyond the Black Sea and the Caucasus.

Taken a vow not to read my stuff ?  :)

Quote
These people lived on the very edge of history, glimpsed in early sources as the Gimiraia (Greek), Gimmirai (Akkadian) or Gomer (Biblical). For Homer the distant land of the Cimmerians was wrapped in mist and cloud. This was so vague that some commentators have dismissed the Cimmerians as mythical. Yet they were all too real for those on the wrong end of Cimmerian swords. They swept into Anatolia around 700 BC and terrorised it for a century.

LOL. What stuff? :-p  Seriously though, what archaeological evidence exists that shows a large scale manslaughter caused by the Cimmerians?  For being such warmongers, I would think some kind of sword or a unique weapon would be ascribed to that tribe; just as the falcata is attributed to the Celtiberians.

Arch
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 12:10:55 AM by Arch Y. » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2012, 06:59:17 AM »

Anja Hellmuth, The Chronological Setting of the so-called Cimmerian and Early Scythian Material from Anatolia, Ancient near eastern studies, 2008, vol. 45, pp. 102-122.

Quote
In the eighth and seventh century BC the first items of the so-called Cimmerian and early Scythian material assemblage appeared in the modern territory of Turkey. The two- and three-winged bronze arrowheads, in particular, has enabled researchers to reconstruct a historical picture of the invasion of early horse riding nomads from the Eurasian steppes into Europe and the Near East. Other weapons and horse harnesses of these early nomads ('Cimmerians' and 'Scythian) have been found in Turkey. The best parallels come from Siberia and are dated to the late ninth century BC. Accordingly, placing the material from Anatolia in the early eighth or maybe late ninth century BC, before the appearance of the first written sources about the Cimmerians and Scythians, is not unreasonable.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 07:03:48 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2012, 07:16:51 AM »

An older paper is available online, which you might like, as it has images of weapons and horse-harness.

[Edited to remove dead link - see below]
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 08:03:38 AM by Jean M » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2012, 10:57:50 AM »

Quite interesting. How did they get to Anatolia? A route through the Caucasus or through Central Asia?

Also why is Central Asian(kyrgz/Kazakh ) R1b being posted? I wasn't aware that Cimmerians made it to those areas.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 11:20:56 AM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2012, 11:22:55 AM »

Thanks. That made me pick up an error in my text. I had rs4988235(T). It should be rs4988235(A).

Glad to be of service. I have the homozygous "AA" there, so I got LP from both of my parents. Same thing at rs182549, where I have the "TT" that signifies LP, as well.

Over on that first farmers thread, JeanL just mentioned SJAPL and Longar, where some LP was found in some remains in a Neolithic context, circa 3000 BC. It is too bad they didn't get any ancient y-dna from those sites.

Of course, LP is as likely to have been first transmitted by a female as by a male.

Here is a photo of my maternal grandfather that puts me in mind of lactase persistence.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Which mtdna would be associated with P then? Which ydna is most likely?

Where would you place LP's origins and how did it spread eastwards to the steepe and Northward to Scandavia?
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« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2012, 01:21:44 AM »

An older paper is available online, which you might like, as it has images of weapons and horse-harness.

Jean, the link is dead. Could you please re-direct or post the image inline?

Arch
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Jean M
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« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2012, 05:20:27 PM »

Sorry Arch. Here is a better source for the paper in pdf : http://www.uam.es/otros/cupauam/pdf/Cupauam20/2006.pdf

Vladimir Erlij, The archaeological evidences of the early period of military contacts between the Black Sea north littoral and the ancient east and the "Cimmerian problem", CuPauam, vol. 20 (1993), pp. 133-145.
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