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Heber
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 11:52:39 AM »

This is the same Meabh from Táin Bó Cúailnge, Queen of Connaught in the Ulster Cycle of Irish Mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medb

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1in_B%C3%B3_C%C3%BAailnge

The first two chapters, pillow talk is worth a read an gives an insight into the Celts obsession with cattle.

http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Pillow-talk.html

"According to legend, Medb is buried in a 40-foot (12 m) high stone cairn on the summit of Knocknarea (Cnoc na Ré in Irish) in County Sligo. Supposedly, she is buried upright facing her enemies in Ulster. Her home in Rathcroghan, County Roscommon is also a potential burial site, with a long low slab named 'Misgaun Medb' being given as the most likely location."

Whatever the truth of the legends, this is a facinating location with the megalithic cemeteries of Carrowmore in the background, dating from over 6,000 years and similar to other cemetries in Morbihan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrowmore
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 03:35:50 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
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OConnor
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2012, 10:28:52 AM »

I spoke with an archaeologist while in Ireland. I asked him about the cairn on
Knocknarea. He jokingly said..."They think they have Meabh's resting place there, but we know we have it here on Croghan Hill."
Croghan Hill is the stomping grounds of the O'Connor's of Offaly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croghan_Hill


Back to the Beakers.

I was wondering if the  Beaker culture was related to Copper mining in Irleand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Ireland

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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Jean M
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2012, 12:33:19 PM »

I was wondering if the  Beaker culture was related to Copper mining in Irleand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Ireland

Yes indeed. Bell Beakers were found at a Bronze Age copper-mine on Ross Island, in Lough Leane, County Kerry.
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Heber
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2012, 01:02:27 PM »

"One of the most important sites in Ireland during this period is Ross Island. A series of copper mines from here are the earliest known in Ireland, starting from around 2500BC (O’Brien 2004). A comparison of chemical traces and lead isotope analysis from these mines with copper artefacts strongly suggests that Ross Island was the sole source of copper in Ireland between the dates 2500-2200BC. In addition, two thirds of copper artefacts from Britain also display the same chemical and isotopic signature, strongly suggesting that Irish copper was a major export to Britain (Northover et al. 2001). Traces of Ross Island copper can be found even further afield; in the Netherlands it makes up 12% of analysed copper artefacts, and Brittany 6% of analysed copper artefacts (Northover 1999, 214). After 2200BC there is greater chemical variation in British and Irish copper artefacts, which tallies well with the appearance of other mines in southern Ireland and north Wales. After 2000BC, other copper sources supersede Ross Island. The latest workings from the Ross Island mines is dated to around 1700BC.
As well as exporting raw copper/bronze, there were some technical and cultural developments in Ireland that had an important impact on other areas of Europe. Irish food vessels were adopted in northern Britain around 2200BC and this roughly coincides with a decline in the use of beakers in Britain (Needham 1996). The ‘bronze halberd’ (not to be confused with the medieval halberd) was a weapon in use in Ireland from around 2400-2000BC (Needham 1996, 124). They are essentially broad blades that were mounted horizontally on a meter long handle, giving greater reach and impact than any known contemporary weapon (O’Flaherty 2007). They were subsequently widely adopted in other parts of Europe (Schuhmacher 2002), possibly showing a change in the technology of warfare."

In his book Europe between the oceans, Cunliffe shows pictures of almost identical designs for shields depicted in carved stelae found in Solance de Cabanas (near Tartessian) and actual shields found in bogs in Co. Longford in Ireland.
Among the 400 or so objects dredged from the river in nearby Huevla were 88 spearheads some of the Irish type. During the Bronze age, copper mines in Ross Island in Co. Kerry (2,500  - 2,400 BC) producing flat axes and halberds  and Gold Mines in Co. Wicklow producing gold collars (lunulae) were trading with the tin producers of Cornwall and the Morbihan Loire estuary (p206).
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2012, 04:01:52 PM »

I have to say though that Burnhelt is a controversial figure whose ideas on passage tombs have been rejected by many archaeologists.
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Jean M
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2012, 02:16:06 PM »

I now have a copy of Christopher Prescott and Hakon Glorstad (eds), Becoming European: The Transformation of Third Millennium Northern and Western Europe (2012) in my hands.

Marc Vander Linden manages to retrieve the old Dutch model to some extent by pointing to gaps in the radiocarbon data for the Netherlands in the now famed Muller and van  Willingen 2001 paper resulting from their dismissal of charcoal dates. He has provided new dates from the Netherlands as old as those from Portugal. The problem is that all the old dates from Portugal, the rest of Iberia, the French Midi and the Netherlands fall within the plateau on the radiocarbon curve from 2700-2500 cal BC and so cannot be distinguished from each other.

On mobility he says

Quote
After decades of theoretical dismissal, human mobility is back in fashion in archaeological - and in particular Bell Beaker - circles.

He cites isotope studies and the spread of burial customs, and presents interesting ideas on the demographic pressures.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 04:19:34 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2012, 03:33:41 PM »

I now have a copy of Christopher Prescott and Hakon Glorstad (eds), Becoming European: The Transformation of Third Millennium Northern and Western Europe (2011) in my hands.

Marc Vander Linden manages to retrieve the old Dutch model to some extent by pointing to gaps in the radiocarbon data for the Netherlands in the now famed Muller and van  Willingen 2001 paper resulting from their dismissal of charcoal dates. He has provided new dates from the Netherlands as old as those from Portugal. The problem is that all the old dates from Portugal, the rest of Iberia, the French Midi and the Netherlands fall within the plateau on the radiocarbon curve from 2700-2500 cal BC and so cannot be distinguished from each other.

On mobility he says

Quote
After decades of theoretical dismissal, human mobility is back in fashion in archaeological - and in particular Bell Beaker - circles.

He cites isotope studies and the spread of burial customs, and presents interesting ideas on the demographic pressures.

Sounds very interesting. I have always had some doubt about the Muller and Willigen Iberian origin for beaker conclusion.  Purely intuitively  I always felt beaker culture was like some kind of peripheral quirky offshoot of Corded Ware (itself of TRB inspiration) influenced by a more western archery based culture.  There has always been a problem with the recent move (correct though it is) to only consider 'gold standard' radiocarbon dates from discrete short lived material like human bone, hazelnuts etc - in some areas these things do not survive.  I am not an expert but I do recall the problem with Dutch beaker burials being the bones dont survive due to soil conditions.  Clearly in such a scenario that could lead to some areas being badly represented or not represented at all.
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razyn
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2012, 03:45:09 PM »

I do recall the problem with Dutch beaker burials being the bones dont survive due to soil conditions.  Clearly in such a scenario that could lead to some areas being badly represented or not represented at all.
A dissimilar but somewhat analogous scenario -- in that its effects include underrepresentation in the visible record -- is the rising of the sea (or sinking of the land) in areas that were, or might have been, archaeologically important.  The ancient shores of the Black Sea are often mentioned; and the land bridge across the Bering straits.  I've wondered whether the Vistula had an ancient mouth, or delta, somewhat farther north (and now inundated or eroded away).
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Jean M
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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2012, 04:01:40 PM »

Sounds very interesting. I have always had some doubt about the Muller and Willigen Iberian origin for beaker conclusion. 

I knew you'd like it Alan, but I should stress that Vander Linden is not pressing too hard for a Dutch origin for Bell Beaker. He recognises that this would not explain the Central European material, which has its origin in the Carpathian Basin.

Quote
Purely intuitively  I always felt beaker culture was like some kind of peripheral quirky offshoot of Corded Ware (itself of TRB inspiration) influenced by a more western archery based culture.
 

Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and TRB pottery have much in common and probably have a common origin. All appear to result from waves out of the Carpathian Basin. That does not mean that we necessarily have a trail of pottery all the way up the Danube to final destination of the exact type found at the destination. We can recognise these waves via packages of technology, artefacts etc, which end up correlated with the said pottery at the destination.  
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2012, 05:21:13 PM »

[ont suppose the new Vander Linden stuff is in the bibliotheque de Jean?  By the way you probably have this one already but this paper is interesting

http://www.iansa.eu/papers/IANSA-2010-01-02-merkl.pdf
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Jean M
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« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2012, 05:24:46 PM »

Sorry Alan - I actually bought the book. Would have to scan the paper. While that is possible, it is a bit time-consuming. I may get around to it. I need to read the other papers. That's not the only one you might like.

Yes Merkl  2010 is already in there. I only skimmed over it though.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 05:29:34 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2012, 06:00:14 PM »

Sorry Alan - I actually bought the book. Would have to scan the paper. While that is possible, it is a bit time-consuming. I may get around to it. I need to read the other papers. That's not the only one you might like.

Yes Merkl  2010 is already in there. I only skimmed over it though.

I personally dont think a Dutch origin is likely but it does at least show that its maybe too close to call date wise.  My (guess) of the most likely origin point for beakers is in the Rhone. It just seems a very important linking point between all sorts of influences and an ideal place for Corded Ware to meet other influences including Iberian ones to mix and produce something new.  It doesnt hurt that the general area seems to have a variance peak for P312. It also just seems geographically less of a leap between the upstream of L11 R1b clade distribution and a beaker origin point.  I understand beakers may not be a simple one way monolith but it would be nice if the origin of beakers and P312 coincided.  I still cant look past the fact that the main central European megaculture that links the areas of the upstream forms of R1b in Europe to the beaker area at the time of its genesis is the Corded Ware complex.  It would certainly simplify things if that was the case and relieve us from the need for complex models need to square the circle of Iberian origin for beakers and the eastern origin of R1b. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2012, 07:29:03 AM »

This book is a thrill. Here's the review of it in World Archaeology, which I strongly second, and I haven't read it all yet. The introduction deals with theory. It resurrects migration in archaeological explanation, pointing out that

Quote
.. the reigning modern critique of migration in archaeology created a parody of migration studies and then pretty much denied or circumvented the concept for nearly 40 years...  Research on Mesolithic and Early Neolithic societies has continued to demonstrate that mobility and migrations have been the norm in European Stone Age societies .. not rare exceptions. Thus there is no reason to suppose that large scale migration took place only once. ... The interpretive climate in archaeology once again encourages the exploration of migration study perspectives.

Lovely stuff. I may quote it.  Bell Beaker comes into many of the papers.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2012, 08:32:09 AM »

This book is a thrill. Here's the review of it in World Archaeology, which I strongly second, and I haven't read it all yet. The introduction deals with theory. It resurrects migration in archaeological explanation, pointing out that

Quote
.. the reigning modern critique of migration in archaeology created a parody of migration studies and then pretty much denied or circumvented the concept for nearly 40 years...  Research on Mesolithic and Early Neolithic societies has continued to demonstrate that mobility and migrations have been the norm in European Stone Age societies .. not rare exceptions. Thus there is no reason to suppose that large scale migration took place only once. ... The interpretive climate in archaeology once again encourages the exploration of migration study perspectives.

Lovely stuff. I may quote it.  Bell Beaker comes into many of the papers.

Its a shame archaeology books are rather pricey for poor archaeologists (especially in this recession). I was somewhat dismayed that my university library has not even acquired a copy - probably cutbacks too.  I hate the way on Amazon the chancers who sell the 2nd hand copies charge even higher than a new copy!  I may give in and splash out though.
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Jean M
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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2012, 08:36:22 AM »

I was somewhat dismayed that my university library has not even acquired a copy 

It is very new. The library may have one on order. If not you could put in an appeal for it. But fret not. If I can just get through it, I can scan the the stuff I think you and others will most want. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2012, 09:04:14 AM »

I was somewhat dismayed that my university library has not even acquired a copy 

It is very new. The library may have one on order. If not you could put in an appeal for it. But fret not. If I can just get through it, I can scan the the stuff I think you and others will most want. 

Cheers.  I look forward to that.  There really seems to be a burst of new papers on beakers in the last 5 years or so.  As per usual anything older than 10 years needs read with caution in archaeology as changing mind is the archaeologists proverbial prerogitive as much as women's!
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« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2012, 10:15:42 AM »

OK - Vander Linden is scanned and in the Bell Beaker section. Not a brilliant scanning job, but readable I hope.

Next priority has to be Lene Melheim on the prospecting for copper sources in Norway from 2400 BC, explaining how Bell Beaker got there. (And stirring up some other interesting thoughts.)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2012, 04:18:32 PM »

OK - Vander Linden is scanned and in the Bell Beaker section. Not a brilliant scanning job, but readable I hope.

Next priority has to be Lene Melheim on the prospecting for copper sources in Norway from 2400 BC, explaining how Bell Beaker got there. (And stirring up some other interesting thoughts.)

Great stuff Jean.  I will have a read of that tonight. Cheers. 
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« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2012, 05:01:10 PM »

These two now in:

  • Einar Østmo, Late Neolithic Expansion to Norway. The beginning of a 4000 year-old shipbuilding tradition
  • Lene Melheim, Towards a new understanding of Late Neolithic Norway – the role of metal and metal working
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2012, 09:15:17 AM »

These two now in:

  • Einar Østmo, Late Neolithic Expansion to Norway. The beginning of a 4000 year-old shipbuilding tradition
  • Lene Melheim, Towards a new understanding of Late Neolithic Norway – the role of metal and metal working

Thanks again Jean.  I skimmed them over last night. 
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« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2012, 09:27:39 AM »

Østmo has pinned down for me the answer to a question that has come up periodically: when did the Scandinavians become sea-farers? Answer: the Bronze Age. That is how Bell Beaker could go straight across from Jutland to Southern Norway.

And was was the big attraction of Norway? Lene Melheim provides the answer: prospecting for copper. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2012, 09:53:57 AM »

The paper by M. Pilar Prieto-Martínez is full of interest.

She sees Bell Beaker pottery as a mark of belonging to the culture (a Pan-European identity), rather than indicating high status. It is buried with men, women and children. Copper daggers are rarer and more likely therefore to indicate high status. Burials with copper daggers and Bell Beaker pots are only 5.8% of Beaker tombs. Where it gets really interesting is her map of burials with the quartet of beaker, dagger, adornments and tools, like that of the Amesbury Archer. Such high status burials are really rare (only 12 found so far in the whole of Europe) and tend to be found along important communication arteries like rivers or the coast. 

The decoration found on funerary Bell Beaker pottery is also found on some anthropomorphic stelae of warriors, stone cists and rock art. The stelae are situated in zones suited to transport and communication. Some seem to be on the frontiers with other cultural horizons - possible conflict zones.

She gives two examples of how a decorative technique learned in childhood in one area could travel with a potter in adult life, appearing in a distant area on pots made of local clay.
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« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2012, 10:55:54 AM »

The stelae are situated in zones suited to transport and communication. Some seem to be on the frontiers with other cultural horizons - possible conflict zones.
Or possible truce zones, for long distance traders?

Quote
She gives two examples of how a decorative technique learned in childhood in one area could travel with a potter in adult life, appearing in a distant area on pots made of local clay.
I'm glad to see somebody looking at clay, and hope they can tell what's local.  Whether the actual diffusion of specific Bell Beaker subtypes involved traveling pots or traveling potters may still be an issue, but I seriously doubt that there were boatloads of traveling clay.  Not that anyone has suggested it; but pots can't be thrown, coiled or otherwise fabricated of just any old mud.
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« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2012, 11:03:12 AM »

Exactly. It's a crucial way way to distinguish imported ware from imported design ideas.   

I am scanning that paper. The regions she concentrates on are Galicia, Brittany and  Denmark.
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« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2012, 11:20:19 AM »

It's all very interesting...thanks for sharing.
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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