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Author Topic: How does the U106 variance in Ireland compare to that in England and elsewhere?  (Read 10256 times)
Bren123
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« Reply #175 on: April 11, 2012, 07:14:05 AM »


We know there had to be other languages spoken in Britain. People had to be Britain for a couple of millennia before Indo-European languages arrived and surely the IE languages took time to become dominant.



Some have argued that the mutations and other oddities with the Insular Celtic languages was cause by an Afro-Asiatic substrate but there's a flaw with that argument, the Afro Asiatic languages were also present in Iberia in the form of Phoenician but Celtiberian shows no evidence of mutations and the other oddities present in modern Celtic languages.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 07:14:59 AM by Bren123 » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #176 on: April 11, 2012, 01:28:46 PM »

@ Bren123

Are you sure I posted that on this thread? Doesn't seem to belong here. But anyway - the whole point of the argument for an A-A substrate in Insular Celtic is that these forms do not appear in any form of Continental  Celtic, therefore the contact with A-A was most probably in the British Isles. Phoenician is neither here nor there in this debate. (However the argument for the substrate has been heavily criticised and I wouldn't place a lot of weight on it. )
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 01:49:14 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #177 on: April 11, 2012, 05:06:30 PM »

MPersonally I have a lot more faith in surnames than yourself and have argued this point before.

Though I understand your point about compounded % chances of NPEs, if somebody can trace there ancestry back to Ireland we are probably only taking a couple of hundred years max and if a surname is reasonably clearly not Irish then their line likely wouldn't have been there for very long before that (in most cases). ...
I have no problem at all with anyone who has a genealogy trail to Ireland calling themselves Irish, but only placed in the modern context of that ethnicity.

What I have a problem with is a 200 year genealogy trail and a surname provided as proof of a deep ancestral relationship with the Iron Age Celts, or Germans, or what have you. There is long period of disconnect from the times of fixed surnames and good genealogical records.

This is where evaluating complete surname projects, high resolution gegraphical sampling in Ireland (or whatever),  and statistical analysis of haplotypes, TMRCAs and surname variants comes in to play.

"Most cases" your 200 year-old surname trail may indicate an Iron Age affiliation, but maybe not. How would we know without a true analysis?


All in all I think we're on the same page here.

BTW in respect to Alan's question, I did look at quite a large no. of Irish U106 haplotypes a year or so ago when this topic was brought up in an extremely similar fashion at DNA-Forums and found most had reasonably close matches outside of Ireland.

BTW2 There is a Norwegian Z18+ tested chap in the Z18 project, hang my head in shame for having forgotten about him.

Well if Irish U106 mostly has reasonably close matches outside Ireland, then they probably do not have prehistoric roots on the y-line in Ireland.  The only counteraguement would be to argue that the non-Irish relatively close matches are crypto-Irish but I think that is probably getting into the clutching at straws zone.  I think on an individual basis the answer to Irish U106 folks origins beyond the last 2 or 3 centuries lies in their matches on their FTDNA homepage or otherwise. 
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Bren123
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« Reply #178 on: April 12, 2012, 09:49:47 AM »

@ Bren123

Are you sure I posted that on this thread? Doesn't seem to belong here. But anyway - the whole point of the argument for an A-A substrate in Insular Celtic is that these forms do not appear in any form of Continental  Celtic, therefore the contact with A-A was most probably in the British Isles. Phoenician is neither here nor there in this debate. (However the argument for the substrate has been heavily criticised and I wouldn't place a lot of weight on it. )

Pheonician is an A-A language related to Hebrew which was present in Iberoa, which is why I mentioned Phoenician.
You did post it on this thread,it was  on page 2.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10471.msg128152#msg128152
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 09:54:49 AM by Bren123 » Logged

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« Reply #179 on: April 12, 2012, 11:13:48 AM »

Koch makes a argument for the interaction of Celtic and Phoenician in Tartessian.
Below are my notes from Celtic from the West.

Could this be the link with Jean's Stelae People?
Did the Stelae people come from what was known as Scythia?
I have noted the similarity of the warrior Stelae to Scythian Balbals and similar figures in Fermanagh, Ireland at Lough Erne. Local legend attributes this to the initial landing point of Scythian warrior invaders.

Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 12:54:30 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Jean M
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« Reply #180 on: April 12, 2012, 05:01:37 PM »

Did the Stelae people come from what was known as Scythia?

Yes, but it was only known as Scythia much later, after Scythians moved west from the Asian steppe about 700 BC and dislodged the Cimmerians from the European steppe. The Scythians were the descendants of IE-speaking people who had moved onto the Asian steppe about 2100 BC. The making of anthropomorphic stelae lasted longest on the steppe.

The myths about the Scythian origin of peoples of the British Isles are just that - myths. There is no supporting evidence, archaeological, genetic or linguistic. We know from ancient DNA found in Scythian graves that Scythians were strong in R1a1a. (There is very little R1a1a in Ireland.) The Scythians spoke an Eastern Iranian language. The Irish spoke a form of Celtic.
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Jean M
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« Reply #181 on: April 12, 2012, 05:03:03 PM »

You did post it on this thread, it was  on page 2.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10471.msg128152#msg128152

Thanks. I see now how it came up. My memory is useless.
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Bren123
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« Reply #182 on: April 13, 2012, 03:43:36 PM »

Koch makes a argument for the interaction of Celtic and Phoenician in Tartessian.
Below are my notes from Celtic from the West.

Could this be the link with Jean's Stelae People?
Did the Stelae people come from what was known as Scythia?
I have noted the similarity of the warrior Stelae to Scythian Balbals and similar figures in Fermanagh, Ireland at Lough Erne. Local legend attributes this to the initial landing point of Scythian warrior invaders.

Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.


Could you elaborate a bit more on the info you provided above Haber,it's interesting!
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whoknows
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« Reply #183 on: April 14, 2012, 06:37:24 AM »

rms2
Board Moderator, Posted on another thread: (Early R U106-Extinguished Entirely Or Simply Obscured By Later Expansions?)

"It's pretty easy to see that thus far no one can provide any real reason to think that U106 arrived in Ireland in ancient times. That is really the question. Whether such a thing was possible isn't really all that important, since I think most of us acknowledge that it was possible. Again, it is also possible that U106 got to China in ancient times."

Of course  "no one can provide any real reason" why R U106 could not have arrived at some early stage in Ireland as part of an admixture, that likely hood is not diminished by reference to the Haplogroup's possible migration into China, by the way what geographical definition are you referring to? Are you including East Turkestan, currently titled as Xinjiang by China's government? If so you will no doubt be aware of some Caucasian looking mummified remains discovered in that western region, perhaps they were the 'Chinese R U106' you mention, that being so, of course they would have been Germanic, right? :)

« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 06:38:18 AM by whoknows » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #184 on: April 14, 2012, 06:53:22 AM »

No, several of those have been tested and found to be R1a.

What I meant by saying that U106 "could have" gone to China very early (but very probably did not) is that anything is possible, but not everything is likely.

U106 "could have" gone to Ireland very early, but there is no real reason to believe it did.

Really wanting to believe it did is not the same as having some actual reasons to believe it did.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 11:47:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

whoknows
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« Reply #185 on: April 14, 2012, 07:03:45 AM »

Yes was aware of the limited testing which indicated some of those as R1a, although would appreciate a reference for that determination, so my mention was gentle humor, nothing more.

As noted previously my comments on this subject are not about any personal agenda or desire to associate with any particular ethnology, but to sow a few seeds and raise reasonable questions.

Equally, simply asserting that likely hood could not have happened on the basis of belief, albeit with reasons, is not the same as evidence, we are constrained by speculation and informed opinion in this matter, you have one view, which I respect, or my part I have no position either way, for me its a principle, that seeks to question any assertion stated as fact, that lacks evidence or can be demonstrated through empirical testing.

We simply do not know and until future developments enable such an assessment, can only make claims reasonable or otherwise.
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rms2
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« Reply #186 on: April 14, 2012, 12:19:08 PM »

. . .

As noted previously my comments on this subject are not about any personal agenda or desire to associate with any particular ethnology, but to sow a few seeds and raise reasonable questions.

. . .

How remarkably coincidental it is then that you popped up here right around the same time that Darren, the moderator over at FTDNA's forum, deleted a bunch of posts by "1798", who was advancing pretty much the same arguments you have been advancing, about Tim Janzen's variance calculations, etc.
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whoknows
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« Reply #187 on: April 14, 2012, 12:50:44 PM »

Again I would respectfully request that the focus is not distracted towards the 'personal', it is a pleasure exchanging various ideas and questions on the actual topic, as I mentioned could you suggest any reference that documents how and when the Mummies of East Turkestan were shown to be R1a. Would be most appreciative to read any such reports.
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rms2
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« Reply #188 on: April 14, 2012, 01:00:04 PM »

It's just good to know what is what and why it is what it is.
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whoknows
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« Reply #189 on: April 14, 2012, 05:16:52 PM »

All questions that have as their purpose civilized inquiry related to the actual topic are indeed welcome, as Moderator no doubt you have been required to advise when contributors have leaned towards the personal and hostile, as opposed to an objective and mature exchange. Always unfortunate when a decent and sensible conversation is undermined by such distraction, thankfully this present thread has maintained a balanced and interesting tone. I have been doing some research into the Mummies of East Turkestan, but as yet cannot seem to locate any source that verifies your report that they were tested and proven to be R1a. Do you have a link that you could share? Wouldn't it be fun if they turned out to be 'Germanic' R U106, oh how the Chinese authorities would appreciate that, not!
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rms2
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« Reply #190 on: April 14, 2012, 06:29:35 PM »

Try Jean Manco's excellent Ancient Eurasian DNA site. Scroll down to the Bronze Age section and look for Xiaohe, Xinjiang, China. The source study is in the column on the far right.

As I mentioned before, no one has tested any ancient y-dna as far up the tree as U106. We are very lucky when we get enough of a haplotype to predict that it is R1b.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 06:29:56 PM by rms2 » Logged

whoknows
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« Reply #191 on: April 15, 2012, 07:26:36 AM »

Thanks for that excellent information, most helpful and kind of you
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Heber
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« Reply #192 on: April 15, 2012, 07:48:10 AM »

Koch makes a argument for the interaction of Celtic and Phoenician in Tartessian.
Below are my notes from Celtic from the West.

Could this be the link with Jean's Stelae People?
Did the Stelae people come from what was known as Scythia?
I have noted the similarity of the warrior Stelae to Scythian Balbals and similar figures in Fermanagh, Ireland at Lough Erne. Local legend attributes this to the initial landing point of Scythian warrior invaders.

Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.


Could you elaborate a bit more on the info you provided above Haber,it's interesting!

Bren,

My notes were take from Celtic from the West by Koch and Cunliffe.

http://archaeologyawards.org/2012/book-of-the-year-2012.htm

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2011/2011-09-57.html

http://academicbooksofthemonth.blogspot.de/2011/07/tartessian-2.html

http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos

The Celtic Pagan Stelae in Boa Island influenced later early Christian statues in nearby White Island.

http://www.megalithicireland.com/Boa%20Island.htm

http://www.megalithicireland.com/White%20Island%20Figures.htm

And Celtic Origin Myths claim origin in Scythia, North of the Black Sea via Iberia

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/celticmemory.html

Notice the similarity to Kurgan Stelae and Scythian Balbals from Burana Tower

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_stelae

Could this be linked to Jeans Stelae People.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/bellbeaker.shtml

There are many examples of similar warrior Stelae with inscriptions in Tartessos and Galecia.

http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_4/lorrio_zapatero_6_4.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaeci

If this can be verified could it provide a link from the Indo European homeland to the emergence of Celtic in Iberia to the migration of Celtic to the Isles?

Whatever about the Origin myths, which are legends, I believe there is ample evidence that some of the Celts arrived in Ireland via Iberia.
There were several waves of settlers who arrived via Iberia and the Atlantic Facade including Megalithic builders, Bell Beakers, Copper Age Miners (Ross Island), Bronze Age Settlers, Iron Age Celts as well as several back migrations from Ireland to Iberia and the Continent. Were these ancestors of the Celts or were they all subclades of M269 or a mixture of R1b, I and J is a matter of debate.
From a language point of view Q-Celtic is Ancestral to P-Celtic and Celt Iberian appears to be Ancestral to Q-Celtic.
Most of the sub clades of L21 have a strong presence in Ireland including DF23, M222, Z253, L226, DF21, P314.2 and many of the Scottish based clades would appear to have migrated from Ireland.
L21 clades L253 and P312 Z196 match both Irish and Ibernian men.
I believe some of the Bell Beakers and Atlantic Bronze Age settlers migrated up the great rivers of Europe, Loire, Rhone, Seine, Rhine to found the Halstatt and Le Tene cultures at the source of those rivers. This provides the last wave of Celtic migrations into the Isles.
When we get more SNPs downstream of L21, we should be able to compare the L21 Tree to the Irish and Scottish Clan Tree and identify which elememts of the genealogy are fact and which are fiction.

http://m.box.com/view_shared/d0nr7768zv18ht6tk28i














« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 11:29:03 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Heber
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« Reply #193 on: April 15, 2012, 12:28:08 PM »

Bren,

Regarding the connection with the Phoeniciens, the following is interesting:

"Unlike the upper Danube, Herodotus was apparently well informed about the kingdom of Tartessos in what is now south-west Spain and southern Portugal. This is not surprising, since Greek imports were common in the rich orientalizing archaeological culture of Early Iron Age Tartessos, about 775–550 BC. These finds include ceramics and other manufactured luxuries from Cyprus, Phokaia, Rhodes, Samos, and Attika, alongside Phoenician imports from Tyre and Tyre’s colonies in north Africa and southern Spain. A key factor wasTyre’s colony at Cádiz (Phoenician Gadir) near the Straits of Gibraltar and on the southern edge of Tartessos.
As well as information on a species of Tartessian weasel (4.192), Herodotus provides accounts of two remarkable Greek voyages to Tartessos....

§1.163 [The] Phokaians were the earliest of the Greeks to make long sea voyages: it was they who discovered the Adriatic Sea, and Tyrrhenia, and Iberia, and Tartessos . . . When they came to Tartessos they made friends with the king of theTartessians, whose name was Arganthonios [ ’Arganqwnioj]
[trans. Godley].
Arganthonios is a transparently Celtic name or title, meaning something like ‘agent of divine silver’ (*Arianhonydd if the name existed in Welsh today). Arganthonios is, in fact, the only clearly Celtic personal appellation in all of Herodotus’s Histories. The basis of the fabled wealth of Tartessos was metals, silver most especially, but also gold and copper, and tin transhipped from Galicia, Brittany, and Cornwall. It was need of great quantities of silver, demanded as tribute by the Assyrians, that had impelled sailors from Tyre in what is now Lebanon to Tartessos.
According to the Roman historian Velleius Paterculus, the Tyrians founded Gadir 80 years after the Trojan war, or about 1100 BC [see p. 16]. Phoenician metalwork occurs together with Atlantic Late Bronze Age types in the Huelva deposition of about 950 BC. But the Phoenician colony of Gadir is not archaeologically detect- able until about 770 BC, early in the Tartessian Orientalizing Phase of the Iberian First Iron Age. In 573 BC, Babylon conquered Tyre, and there was afterwards a downturn of eastern luxuries reaching the Tartessian aristocracy, which explains Arganthonios’s eagerness, about 20 years later, for the Phokaians to found a colony ‘anywhere they liked’ in Tartessos.

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/ODonnell.pdf


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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



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« Reply #194 on: July 11, 2012, 12:51:06 PM »

Here are the U106 I'm aware of in Scotland and Wales by surname and hg.  The McMullen/McMillen group of Ireland and Scotland seem to be a big. Does anyone know their history?

Zombie thread alert; the McMullen/McMillanconnection intrests me as my surname is Mullen but I am I-L126. There are also two others with variations of McMillan who are I-L126.
I think both surnames have more or less the same gaelic meaning,as far as I know there are three variations of the surname Mullen in Ireland; one from Galway, one from Cork and a Donegal/Derry one.
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sernam
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« Reply #195 on: July 14, 2012, 08:27:59 PM »

the Northumbrians actually raided Ireland once (or twice?) in pre-Viking times,


  This family were still located 17th century as erenaghs of churchlands in an barony area called Morgallion Co. Meath.  (Gaileang Mora) ancient Brega


It may only be a coincidence but guess where those Northumbrians raided
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 08:48:25 PM by sernam » Logged
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