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Author Topic: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)  (Read 8062 times)
JeanL
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« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2012, 11:31:35 AM »

Basques do have some northern european admixture whereas the Sardinians do not, but we also know Basques carry alot of R1b to explain that.  I think the common mediterranean component coupled with I-M26 also found in the Sardinians is the key.  See the K12b spreadsheet.  If Basques were ice age survivors, they would have a much stronger northern european component that they would share with people who went north out of the refugiums, imo.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html

Meh!! I wouldn't put too much weight on that hypothesis; the fact is that we are likely dealing with the limitations of ADMIXTURE and people like Dienekes looking way too much into it. The Northern European component is modal in Baltic populations, in fact the Orcadians from HGDP exhibit it at 45.6%, whereas Russians from HGDP exhibit this component at 65.4%, and Lithuanians even higher. 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 07:37:49 PM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2012, 05:27:12 PM »

My interpretation is a little different.

They are only different in their order with the NE Euro and West Asian components.  Either way this suggests gene flow from the east, probably from different directions in the neolithic (Cardium vs. LBK derived cultures?).  I don't see this as a major difference, proto-Basques may have taken more of an overland route and picked up some I-M26 in SE Europe in the process.  This would explain part of the NE Euro component in Basques.  Proto-Sardinians were more west Asian and therefore mediterranean.  Yes, there is likely some continuity from the native mesolithic.  I just doubt it is detectable.  On a side note, two samples of I-P37.2 the parent of M26 were found in the Treilles aDNA of neolithic France.

At the next level, both populations are at the same spot which suggests a fusion of sorts perhaps when the west mediterranean neolithic is established and into the megalithic/copper ages.  This is where a common substrate is developed for both, imo.  At the nearest level, both are closest to NW Europeans, which is not surprising due to the large amount of R1b and other northern types introduced into the Basque populations post neolithic and up to the Roman period.  Sardinia, as opposed to Basques, was in contact with Greek and Phoenician colonies which would also reinforce the closeness with West Asia.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 05:32:05 PM by MHammers » Logged

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JeanL
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2012, 06:46:19 PM »

The divergence time of the Proto-Basque component and Proto-West Asian component is earlier than the Neolithic, their fst=0.038, and using the French Basques as representatives of the Proto-Basque component,  and the Adygei as the representatives of the Proto-West Asian components.

Using the following formula which calculates time of divergence in generations based on the fst and effective population size (Ne), and assuming random drift:

Henn et al(2011) Formula

The Ne for the French Basques(6137) and Adygei(6699) can be found in the supplementary tables of Li et al(2009).

Li et al(2009)

Using a generation time of 25, we find that the time of divergence between the Proto-Basque component and the Proto West Asian component is equal to:

T=25*log(1-0.038)/log(1-1/(Ne_basques+Ne_adygei))=12431 ybp or 497 generations.

This is a time of divergence that is clearly before the Neolithic.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 07:33:45 PM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2012, 05:35:49 PM »

Thanks, I hadn't see that study.  

What do you think is driving that very high divergence time in terms of haplogroups?  I know there's not always a strong correlation between them and autosomal dna, but Basques have relatively similiar haplogroups and frequencies as other western Europeans.  The mtdna subclades H1 and H3 seem higher in Basques than other.  Are these considered older than the other forms of H in western Europe?
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JeanL
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« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2012, 07:49:21 PM »

I don't know Haplogroups, and more specifically y-DNA haplogroups are extremely susceptible to drift. I don't think Basques are the only ones who retained a lot of Pre-Neolithic genes, this is something shared by other Western Europeans. Also remember ADMIXTURE is a computer program which would basically try to fit x given number of populations in k numbers of parental components. So what makes any sort of component real or not is very subjective, and Dienekes is known to build huge thesis on single experiments without taking into account the limitations of the software.
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« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2012, 03:41:42 AM »

After the reading the whole article,I noticed  this paragraph

When other Iberian and French samples are compared to our present sample set (Figures 2b and 3b),Basque samples cluster with other surrounding non-Basque speaking populations,which suggests a genetic distinctiveness, not exclusive to Basque speakers, of the populations inhabiting this geographical area. Moreover the geographically distant population from the French Bretagne (BRI), which shows no North African haplogroups and very little Neolithic influences, falls within our Basque populations for the Y-chromosome data, whereas geographically closer French populations do not.
Bretons speak a Celtic language with roots in the British Isles and that has no relation with Basque. This suggests that other geographically and ethnically separated Western European populations might exhibit the genetic composition similar to the Basques and some surrounding populations but that this peculiarity is not linked to the fact of having a Basque culture.


The authors suggest that what  both populations have in common is a marginal geographic position that meant they received little post paleolithic admixture
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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2012, 12:41:07 PM »

I don't know Haplogroups, and more specifically y-DNA haplogroups are extremely susceptible to drift. I don't think Basques are the only ones who retained a lot of Pre-Neolithic genes, this is something shared by other Western Europeans. Also remember ADMIXTURE is a computer program which would basically try to fit x given number of populations in k numbers of parental components. So what makes any sort of component real or not is very subjective, and Dienekes is known to build huge thesis on single experiments without taking into account the limitations of the software.
I am very skeptical of explaining away low diversity by "drift", at least Y DNA wise. Genetically we can't see what's on the other side (the earlier/older side) of a bottleneck that points to a recent founder.  All we know is the Basques have recent founders among their R1b subclade populations. I can't see how we can know that is random drift versus a late arrival.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2012, 02:13:55 PM »

I don't know Haplogroups, and more specifically y-DNA haplogroups are extremely susceptible to drift. I don't think Basques are the only ones who retained a lot of Pre-Neolithic genes, this is something shared by other Western Europeans. Also remember ADMIXTURE is a computer program which would basically try to fit x given number of populations in k numbers of parental components. So what makes any sort of component real or not is very subjective, and Dienekes is known to build huge thesis on single experiments without taking into account the limitations of the software.
I am very skeptical of explaining away low diversity by "drift", at least Y DNA wise. Genetically we can't see what's on the other side (the earlier/older side) of a bottleneck that points to a recent founder.  All we know is the Basques have recent founders among their R1b subclade populations. I can't see how we can know that is random drift versus a late arrival.

I absolutely agree. If you look at M153 (aka "The Basque Marker") it is obvious that it is very young based on its low diversity and the fact that it is now a whopping 10 subclades below P312. The fact that so many non-Basques are also part of the same NS cluster but several subclades up from M153 points to migrants from non-Basque areas entering northern-central Iberia at a later date.
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« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2012, 03:03:10 PM »

The fact that so many non-Basques are also part of the same NS cluster but several subclades up from M153 points to migrants from non-Basque areas entering northern-central Iberia at a later date.

But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did.  Other scenarios that have been around much longer (pertaining to Bell Beakers, Iberian refugia, Basque or Italo-Celtic linguistics, and other matters) don't seem to mesh very well with the DNA patterns being revealed by the more recent testing.

Once this phylogenetic situation on the ground becomes better known, it will probably get resolved by expensive academic studies, of more carefully screened populations.  There are things we can figure out $29 at a time, and things we can't.  Anyway, I'm very pleased to see M153 beginning its march down the P312 tree to its correct position.  And I'm somewhat eager to see what looks contemporaneous with SRY2627, once we have some clear nodes down this other side of Z196.
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IALEM
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« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2012, 02:35:17 AM »

But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2012, 07:28:28 AM »

But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?
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« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2012, 07:45:13 AM »

The re-population of Spain from Christian kingdoms after the Moors were forced out of Spain may have brought females also.

Is it possible a lot of the L21 entered Spain around these times?

711: The Muslim conquest of Iberia begins.
 718: Moorish Islamic rule is at its widest extent, covering almost all of the Iberian Peninsula, the Pyrenees, and part of today's southern France.
 722:Battle of Covadonga in the north-west of Iberia. The Christian Reconquista begins.
 739: Moorish garrison driven out of Galicia by Asturian-Galician forces.
 800: The Franks complete the reconquest of all of today's southern French territory and the Pyrenees and establish the Spanish March.
 801: The Franks reconquer Barcelona.
 914: Completion of the reconquest of the north-west. Muslims briefly retake Barcelona.
 1085: Toledo reconquered by Castilian forces.
 1147: Siege of Lisbon. Forces from the Second Crusade and the Reconquista expel the Moorish forces from the city.
 1236: Half of Iberia has been reconquered by the Christians. Cadiz seized by Castilian forces attacking from the sea.
 1249: King Afonso III of Portugal takes Faro (in the Algarve), ending the Portuguese part of the Reconquista in 1250.[3] The Emirate of Granada remains the only Muslim state in Iberia.
 1300s and 1400s: Marinid Muslims seize control of some towns on the southern coast but are soon driven out.
 1492: Treaty of Granada completes the Reconquista.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
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rms2
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« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2012, 06:18:52 PM »

But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?

You also have the example of the Ossetians, who speak an Indo-Iranian language, claim descent from the Alans and Sarmatians and yet resemble their non-IE-speaking Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2a. It's pretty obvious the Ossetians made a y-dna switch at some point without altering their basic language and culture.
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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2012, 03:24:55 AM »

But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?
Because they are  the same population genetically, IndoEuropean language didn´t change the genetic composition, it was simply a cultural trait learnt by the population. The equation culture=race is simply wrong historically.
Besides, as you know, it is not only Basques who have a high R1b composition and spoke non IE language, the whole of the Iberian coast and Aquitania were in the same position before the Roman conquest, and the adoption of Latin (IE) language didn´t change that genmetic composition.
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2012, 03:27:33 AM »

But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?

You also have the example of the Ossetians, who speak an Indo-Iranian language, claim descent from the Alans and Sarmatians and yet resemble their non-IE-speaking Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2a. It's pretty obvious the Ossetians made a y-dna switch at some point without altering their basic language and culture.
No Rich, it is the other way around. Ossetians were Caucasians who adopted an IE language through elite dominant Sarmatians. It is way more simple to think of changing languages than whole populations.
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« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2012, 03:42:59 PM »

But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?

You also have the example of the Ossetians, who speak an Indo-Iranian language, claim descent from the Alans and Sarmatians and yet resemble their non-IE-speaking Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2a. It's pretty obvious the Ossetians made a y-dna switch at some point without altering their basic language and culture.
No Rich, it is the other way around. Ossetians were Caucasians who adopted an IE language through elite dominant Sarmatians. It is way more simple to think of changing languages than whole populations.

Just the Ossetians were dominated by Sarmatians and none of their neighbors?

Perhaps the Basques were originally local Celts who likewise experienced "elite dominance"?

I disagree about changing y-dna over time. It might not occur over night, but it isn't too hard to see how it could happen, given enough time and drift.
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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2012, 06:51:41 AM »

But, just male "migrants," right?  I'm still thinking many of these R1b (and maybe Z196, Z209, Z220) migrants to the Basque country were guys w/o their wives, livestock, etc., who perhaps didn't change the local culture too much, but changed its Y-DNA balance significantly.  It's just a scenario to play around with, and Didier suggested it before I did. 
That scenario just don´t fit with historical experience, the other way around, changing culture without affecting Y-DNA balance is what have happened, but with an attested change in Y-DNA balance, like the one that happened in South America, a cultuiral change is unavoidable

If that's true, then how do you account for Basque Y-DNA being almost identical to most of Western Europe at the P312+ level?

You also have the example of the Ossetians, who speak an Indo-Iranian language, claim descent from the Alans and Sarmatians and yet resemble their non-IE-speaking Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2a. It's pretty obvious the Ossetians made a y-dna switch at some point without altering their basic language and culture.
No Rich, it is the other way around. Ossetians were Caucasians who adopted an IE language through elite dominant Sarmatians. It is way more simple to think of changing languages than whole populations.

Just the Ossetians were dominated by Sarmatians and none of their neighbors?

Perhaps the Basques were originally local Celts who likewise experienced "elite dominance"?

I disagree about changing y-dna over time. It might not occur over night, but it isn't too hard to see how it could happen, given enough time and drift.
The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time
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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2012, 07:18:54 AM »

The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?
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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2012, 09:22:48 AM »

The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?
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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2012, 01:24:19 PM »

The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?

And that's exactly where I was going to go with it. I'm a big believer in Occam's razor, and the latter is the more unlikely of the two scenarios by a long shot. To me, the Basque question is the "red herring" in R1b discussions.
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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2012, 03:26:47 PM »

The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?
I find it easier fro language to spread without substantial Y-DNA change that for a change ion Y-DNA without language change.
And remember, you seem to forget that before the Roman conquest the area of non Indoeuropean language was much larger, including Aquitania and the mediterranean coast of Iberia. Curiously that area has a larger percentage of R1b than the Celtic Western Iberia.
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« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2012, 04:32:33 PM »

The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?
I find it easier fro language to spread without substantial Y-DNA change that for a change ion Y-DNA without language change.
And remember, you seem to forget that before the Roman conquest the area of non Indoeuropean language was much larger, including Aquitania and the mediterranean coast of Iberia. Curiously that area has a larger percentage of R1b than the Celtic Western Iberia.

So then you think that the first L11, U106, P312, L21, U152 and now DF27 all spoke a Basque-like language? It is possible they all appeared within a few centuries of each other.
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« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2012, 03:45:40 AM »

The Hungarians changed their language and none of their neighbours.
 The Basque are basically composed of just 2 haplogroups, I and R1b, while their neighbours show a much more complex mix, how do you explain that? It is more simple to think they are a relatively isolated population that received little admixture over time

So you think the probability is greater that all R1b people in Western Europe spoke a Basque-like language and switched over time to speak IE?


That is something I have brought up time and again.

Which is easier? For a very large group spread over a very large geographic area to change its language, or for a small population in a relatively small area to experience genetic drift and over time alter the relative frequencies of its y haplogroups?
I find it easier fro language to spread without substantial Y-DNA change that for a change ion Y-DNA without language change.
And remember, you seem to forget that before the Roman conquest the area of non Indoeuropean language was much larger, including Aquitania and the mediterranean coast of Iberia. Curiously that area has a larger percentage of R1b than the Celtic Western Iberia.

So then you think that the first L11, U106, P312, L21, U152 and now DF27 all spoke a Basque-like language? It is possible they all appeared within a few centuries of each other.
I think they spoke a pre Indoeuropean language at some time, that could or could not be related to the group of languages in which were Aquitanian and Iberian and of which Basque is the last remnant. I think that IE reached Western Europe from Eastern Europe but it was a cultural trait expanded through Elite dominance and cultural assimilation.
We will never know for sure since non written languages don´t leave behind archaeological remains. If R1b is found to be post-neolithic I will reconsider my position though, as there will be a clear sign of a massive replacement of populatioin. Still, even if that is the case, there is still the problem with Iberians and Aquitanians, do you think they were flooded with R1b IE speaking populations but still kept their non IE languages? And what about the Celts of Weswtern Iberia? they  were the carriers of an IE language but those regions had a lower percentage of R1b in  present day.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 03:46:43 AM by IALEM » Logged

Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

rms2
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« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2012, 07:39:49 AM »

Those are all good points, but I just cannot buy the "elite dominance" part, not over so wide an area, with such thorough-going success, and conducted by such a relatively primitive people.
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« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2012, 10:22:48 AM »

I think they spoke a pre Indoeuropean language at some time, that could or could not be related to the group of languages in which were Aquitanian and Iberian and of which Basque is the last remnant. I think that IE reached Western Europe from Eastern Europe but it was a cultural trait expanded through Elite dominance and cultural assimilation.
We will never know for sure since non written languages don´t leave behind archaeological remains. If R1b is found to be post-neolithic I will reconsider my position though, as there will be a clear sign of a massive replacement of populatioin. Still, even if that is the case, there is still the problem with Iberians and Aquitanians, do you think they were flooded with R1b IE speaking populations but still kept their non IE languages? And what about the Celts of Weswtern Iberia? they  were the carriers of an IE language but those regions had a lower percentage of R1b in  present day.

We can't look at these things in a vacuum. The top 15 areas of L11+ on the entire planet are all in the British Isles where all pre-Roman languages were IE. The areas of L11 in Ireland blow the doors off of Basque country L11 frequency, reaching more than 90%+ in some areas and over 73% in all areas. Besides, the level of L11 in Aquitanian/Iberian lands is not drastically different than in the NW or western Iberia.
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
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