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Author Topic: Distribution of R1b-M269(xR-U106) distribution in Iberia/SW France  (Read 1644 times)
JeanL
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« on: April 09, 2012, 12:47:04 AM »

Before hand I'll like to point out that I'm well aware that higher frequency=/=origin. Nonetheless I feel it is quite interesting to summarize the distribution of R1b-M269(xU106) in the areas surrounding the Basque Country.

From Myres et al(2010)

Santander, Cantabria (n=131) R1b-M269(xU106) 61/131 or 46.56%
Leon, Castilla y Leon (n=83) R1b-M269(x106) 45/83 or 54.22%

From Cruciani et al(2010)

Asturias (n=70) R1b-M269(xU106) 40/70 or 57.14%
Basques(n=55) R1b-M269(xU106) 45/55 or 81.81%

From Martinez-Cruz et al(2012)

Bigorre,Gascony (n=44) R1b-M269(xU106) 34/44 or 77.27%
Bearn,Gascony (n=56) R1b-M269(xU106) 42/56 or 75%
Chalosse,Gascony (n=43) R1b-M269(xU106) 42/58 or 72.41%
Lapurdi/Baztan, Iparralde (n=44) R1b-M269(xU106) 38/44 or 86.36%
Navarre Labourdin, Iparralde (n=66) R1b-M269(xU106) 49/66 or 74.24%
Zuberoa, Iparralde (n=53) R1b-M269(xU106) 42/53 or 79.25%
Roncal, Navarra (n=53) R1b-M269(xU106) 44/53 or 83.02%
Central/Western, Navarra (n=60) R1b-M269(xU106) 50/60 or 83.33%
North/Western, Navarra (n=51) R1b-M269(xU106) 43/51 or 84.31%
Gipuskoa, Euskadi (n=47) R1b-M269(xU106) 41/47 or 87.23%
South/Western Gipuskoa, Euskadi (n=57) R1b-M269(xU106) 53/57 or 92.98%
Araba, Euskadi (n=51) R1b-M269(xU106) 37/51 or 72.55%
Bizkaia, Euskadi (n=57) R1b-M269(xU106) 52/57 or 91.23%
Western Bizkaia, Euskadi (n=19) R1b-M269(xU106) 16/19 or 84.21%
Cantabria (n=18) R1b-M269(xU106) 10/18 or 55.55%
Burgos, Castilla y Leon (n=20) R1b-M269(xU106) 11/20 or 55%
La Rioja (n=54) R1b-M269(xU106) 37/54 or 68.52%
North Aragon (n=27) R1b-M269(xU106) 21/27 or 77.78%

Noted that some sample sizes are rather small(i.e. North Aragon, Western Bizkaia, Cantabria from Martinez-Cruz data), one can see that there is a drop in frequency once we move from the Basque speaking area, or rather from the historically core-Basque area. For example regions like Bigorre, Bearn and Chalosse which were inhabited by the Aquitani all display frequencies of R1b-M269(xU106) in the range of 74.14%-78.57%, on the other hand the modern day region of Araba which was inhabited by the fringe of Caristii/Berones displays a frequency of 72.55%. Cantabria, Asturias, Leon all display frequencies in the order of 46.56%-57.14%. The main point here, is that these regions were inhabited by Celtic-speaking tribes, so this makes me wonder either a) these regions have gained a whole lot of haplogroups in the last 2000 years or so from external influences, b) the celtic tribes in Iberia weren’t big on R1b, at least not “big” in the sense of R1b in England, Ireland.  Certain regions (i.e. La Rioja, North Aragon show transitional frequencies).

What do you guys think of it??
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 11:26:24 PM by JeanL » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 09:13:56 AM »

The very high R1b seems to be a feature that runs from the Pyrennees for to Brittany and into the isles.  I cant recall the details for France but I recall it being very high in central France too.  In Iberia I have understood for some time that R1b drops off to much lower levels as you move west.  I tend to think the east of Iberia is more like France in R1b frequency which may be a simple matter of Geography.  I tend to see eastern Iberia (Pyrenness and adjacent) as an extension of France.  It seems that way in terms of the L21 subclade too.  France also seems to have a lot of variance too.  I still get the sense that R1b reached Iberia via France and had its biggest impact on the east of Iberia (diluting the pre-existing peoples more there) but I am not confident about that or indeed much given the lack of a detailed survey down to the latest SNP subclade levels and detailed region by region clade variance calculations. 
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JeanL
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 01:40:54 PM »

Per Myres et al(2010) Table-S4

R1b-M269(xR-U106) frequency in France:

France East (n=25) 12/25 or 48%

France (n=16) 6/16 or 37.5%

France West (n=14) 8/14 or 57.14%

France South (n=38) 20/38 or 52.63%

I'm not exactly sure what part of Southern, Western or Eastern France those samples came from, nor what the "France" sample is made up of. I would also make note of the rather small samples sizes.

More:

Bouches du Rhone (at mouth) (n=207) 123/207 or 59.42%

Var (coastal, E of Rhone) (n=68) 41/68 or 60.29%

Vaucluse (upstream Rhone) (n=61) 33/61 or 54.09%

Alpes de Haute Provence (n=31) 21/31 or 67.74%

So it seems that the frequency in France(minus Gascon/Iparralde area) seems to resemble that of Spain once we move away from the Basque/Navarrense area.

Also while Catalonia has a rather high frequency of R1b-M269, I don't know what portion of it is R-U106 because the only study I have of Catalonia is that of Adams et al(2008) where Catalonia (n=80) shows 81% R1b-M269, we know that for sure 22%(1% R-M153, 21% R-SRY2627) is definitely not R-U106, but the other 59% marked as R-M269 could have some R-U106 in it. Nonetheless in that study one can see that Valencia (n=73), also in Eastern Spain has 61% R1b-M269. But even in more details, we know that Valencia (n=113) from the Myres et al(2010) study Table-S4 has R1b-M269 at 51/113 or 45.13%. So there is an equal drop in R1b frequency as one moves down in Eastern Spain. I can’t say anything about Catalonia, but assuming that most of that R1b-M269 is R-P312+ clades and not R-U106, then it means that R1b is somewhat significant in Catalonia. But we know that both Catalonia, and Valencia were populated by Iberians tribes, who spoke nonIndo European languages, the only reason I could see for the sharp drop in Valencia is that Valencia received a heavy flow of genes from Greek, Phoenician, Roman, and Arabic/Moorish colonization, so maybe Valencia was more Catalonian-like in the pre-Roman era. Although I heard accounts that Valencia and Murcia were settled by Catalan people post-Reconquista, so I don’t know what to make of it. The main point here is that the R1b-rich areas in Iberia/SW France aren’t those link to Indo-European speakers, but Iberian/Basque/Aquitanian speakers.  We know that Cardial Catalonia was G-P15* and E-V13, although the sample size is very small, we know that G-P15* are E-V13 were there 7000 ybp, although in the modern day sample of Catalonia from Adams et al(2008) 5 out of 80 samples were G-201, so they could very well be G-P15*, and there was a single E-M78 sample, which could be E-V13, so for all we know those folks could descend from the Cardial colonizers. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 01:44:22 PM by JeanL » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 04:07:21 PM »

Per Myres et al(2010) Table-S4

R1b-M269(xR-U106) frequency in France:

France East (n=25) 12/25 or 48%

France (n=16) 6/16 or 37.5%

France West (n=14) 8/14 or 57.14%

France South (n=38) 20/38 or 52.63%

I'm not exactly sure what part of Southern, Western or Eastern France those samples came from, nor what the "France" sample is made up of. I would also make note of the rather small samples sizes.

More:

Bouches du Rhone (at mouth) (n=207) 123/207 or 59.42%

Var (coastal, E of Rhone) (n=68) 41/68 or 60.29%

Vaucluse (upstream Rhone) (n=61) 33/61 or 54.09%

Alpes de Haute Provence (n=31) 21/31 or 67.74%

So it seems that the frequency in France(minus Gascon/Iparralde area) seems to resemble that of Spain once we move away from the Basque/Navarrense area.

Also while Catalonia has a rather high frequency of R1b-M269, I don't know what portion of it is R-U106 because the only study I have of Catalonia is that of Adams et al(2008) where Catalonia (n=80) shows 81% R1b-M269, we know that for sure 22%(1% R-M153, 21% R-SRY2627) is definitely not R-U106, but the other 59% marked as R-M269 could have some R-U106 in it. Nonetheless in that study one can see that Valencia (n=73), also in Eastern Spain has 61% R1b-M269. But even in more details, we know that Valencia (n=113) from the Myres et al(2010) study Table-S4 has R1b-M269 at 51/113 or 45.13%. So there is an equal drop in R1b frequency as one moves down in Eastern Spain. I can’t say anything about Catalonia, but assuming that most of that R1b-M269 is R-P312+ clades and not R-U106, then it means that R1b is somewhat significant in Catalonia. But we know that both Catalonia, and Valencia were populated by Iberians tribes, who spoke nonIndo European languages, the only reason I could see for the sharp drop in Valencia is that Valencia received a heavy flow of genes from Greek, Phoenician, Roman, and Arabic/Moorish colonization, so maybe Valencia was more Catalonian-like in the pre-Roman era. Although I heard accounts that Valencia and Murcia were settled by Catalan people post-Reconquista, so I don’t know what to make of it. The main point here is that the R1b-rich areas in Iberia/SW France aren’t those link to Indo-European speakers, but Iberian/Basque/Aquitanian speakers.  We know that Cardial Catalonia was G-P15* and E-V13, although the sample size is very small, we know that G-P15* are E-V13 were there 7000 ybp, although in the modern day sample of Catalonia from Adams et al(2008) 5 out of 80 samples were G-201, so they could very well be G-P15*, and there was a single E-M78 sample, which could be E-V13, so for all we know those folks could descend from the Cardial colonizers. 


Its a fair point you raise, one that has long been noted and one which has no simple answer.  All that I think can be said is that areas which were remote from the mainstream of European events (demonstrated by the survival of the local languages spoken in the Roman period be they Celtic or otherwise) tend to have high p312.  Whatever the origin and language of P312 its a huge element across all of the western half of Europe.  I get the vague impression that P312 in western Europe tends to rise in the most pastoralist areas of each country and drop in the more arable areas.  That could either be down to the more arable areas already being filled in the pre-P312 times (the early Neolithic?) or perhaps due to those areas tending to be targeted again and again in later times.  Maybe a bit of both.   

I am not sure a lot can be resolved looking at ratios of p312 as a monolith. 
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 04:57:53 PM »

The very high R1b seems to be a feature that runs from the Pyrennees for to Brittany and into the isles.  I cant recall the details for France but I recall it being very high in central France too. ...
Here are some additional French numbers

"Phylogeography of French Male Lineages" by Ramos-Luis 2009.

___________________  R1b ___ xU106
Bretagne____________ 80.9% __ 77.4%
Nord-Pas-de-Calais__ 61.8% __ 52.9%
Île-de-France_______ 56.0% __ 48.4%
Alsace______________ 65.0% __ 43.7%
Auvergne____________ 57.3% __ 49.4%
Midi-Pyrenees_______ 61.2% __ 55.2%
Provence-Alpes-Cote_ 55.6% __ 55.6%


From the Normandy FTDNA project, I'd project R1b there to be similar to Bretagne.
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JeanL
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 06:35:13 PM »

Its a fair point you raise, one that has long been noted and one which has no simple answer.  All that I think can be said is that areas which were remote from the mainstream of European events (demonstrated by the survival of the local languages spoken in the Roman period be they Celtic or otherwise) tend to have high p312.  Whatever the origin and language of P312 its a huge element across all of the western half of Europe. 

Well it is said that the Cantabrians were amongst the least romanized people in the Iberian peninsula, they were never conquered by the Moors, or even the Visigoths, yet they show very low frequencies of R1b-M269(xR-U106), noted that they did undergo a language shift, but Spanish speaking people from the western tip of Encartaciones(Western Bizkaia) ) are rich on R1b-M269(xU106), the folks from Northern Aragon are also rich on R1b-M269(xR-U106) even though, they underwent a language shift.

Kudos to Mikewww for providing the extra data on France. Interesting that Bretagne is the area that show frequencies in the same order as those of Iparralde/Gascony.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 10:39:40 PM »

...
Kudos to Mikewww for providing the extra data on France. Interesting that Bretagne is the area that show frequencies in the same order as those of Iparralde/Gascony.
No, kudos to RRocca. I think he is the one who received the table of information from the authors of the study. I just saved and tabulated them.
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IALEM
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 10:48:35 AM »



The main point here is that the R1b-rich areas in Iberia/SW France aren’t those link to Indo-European speakers, but Iberian/Basque/Aquitanian speakers.

Thanks for pointin that Jean, I have been telling that for so looong to people pretending that Basques got R1b from neighbours...
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 10:48:56 AM by IALEM » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 10:52:23 AM »

I get the vague impression that P312 in western Europe tends to rise in the most pastoralist areas of each country and drop in the more arable areas.  That could either be down to the more arable areas already being filled in the pre-P312 times (the early Neolithic?) or perhaps due to those areas tending to be targeted again and again in later times.  Maybe a bit of both.   

I am not sure a lot can be resolved looking at ratios of p312 as a monolith. 
Yes, I have that same impression, and that could be related to lactase persistence, as I already posted regarding Basques. The problem is with the people insisting in linking R1b with IE languages.


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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 12:45:55 PM »

I get the vague impression that P312 in western Europe tends to rise in the most pastoralist areas of each country and drop in the more arable areas.  That could either be down to the more arable areas already being filled in the pre-P312 times (the early Neolithic?) or perhaps due to those areas tending to be targeted again and again in later times.  Maybe a bit of both.   

I am not sure a lot can be resolved looking at ratios of p312 as a monolith. 
Yes, I have that same impression, and that could be related to lactase persistence, as I already posted regarding Basques. The problem is with the people insisting in linking R1b with IE languages.
Perhaps not all R1b did speak IE languages prior to the Basque culture.  Perhaps some did, some didn't.

I agree that we can not view P312 as a monolithic haplogroup when trying to understand the Basques and their relationships to their neighbors. What's the best we can do on dissecting true Basque descendant P312 sub-components?
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 01:46:00 PM »

In a forced take-over situation I suppose the ones with the upper hand took the best real estate.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 02:00:09 PM »

I get the vague impression that P312 in western Europe tends to rise in the most pastoralist areas of each country and drop in the more arable areas.  That could either be down to the more arable areas already being filled in the pre-P312 times (the early Neolithic?) or perhaps due to those areas tending to be targeted again and again in later times.  Maybe a bit of both.   

I am not sure a lot can be resolved looking at ratios of p312 as a monolith. 
Yes, I have that same impression, and that could be related to lactase persistence, as I already posted regarding Basques. The problem is with the people insisting in linking R1b with IE languages.
Perhaps not all R1b did speak IE languages prior to the Basque culture.  Perhaps some did, some didn't.

I agree that we can not view P312 as a monolithic haplogroup when trying to understand the Basques and their relationships to their neighbors. What's the best we can do on dissecting true Basque descendant P312 sub-components?

One thing seems clear.  The Basques have a mix of P312 clades including substantial L21.   I understand that much of the rest is Z196 derived.  They seem like the south end of the stronger concentration of the L21 concentration running from their lands up to the Seine and the British Isles.  L21 in France and the Pyrennian area of Spain seems to me to display a kind of fringe distribution of high concentration somewhat like L21 does in the isles.  It kind of feels to me that L21 in Iberia is essentially part of the western Gaul pattern that runs all the way from the Pyrennes to Normandy.  I see L21 there as the south edge of the western Gaulish and British/Irish pattern of higher L21.  I think L21 is Iberia is just a continuation of this edge and modern national barriers should not blur this.    The fact that it includes both Celtic and non-Celtic speaking areas is problematic.

I think it is important to note that L21 is a minority among the Pyrennes whereas it is a majority in the more Celtic areas to the north in Brittany, Normandy and the Western part of the British Isles   I think that is a crucial point in terms of L21.  However, it is also worth observing that we have yet to see evidence of L21 being big in the west of Iberia where both beaker and Atlantic Bronze are generally thought to be strongest.  So, that is also an issue with the whole Atlantic Bronze idea.  As I posted in the past, L21 seems to divide rather than unite the Atlantic Bronze Areas into a high L21 area in the north and western Iberia where the evidence for high L21 has not year emerged.  However, surveys in recent papers seem to have not sampled crucial areas like Galicia and Portugal so you never know, it might yet emerge.  There was a slight elevation in L21 in northern Portugal in Myres if I recall correctly.  

Normally the reason given in the isles for the drop in L21 in the east is put down to dilution from Belgae, Romans and especially migration period Germanics.  I dont really see why this cannot be true on the continent despite the lack of a comparable language shift.  It is also possible that R1b is associated with pastoralists.  I understand that the Visigoths etc formed a strata of 10% of the population in Iberia but they were subsequently superconcentrated into Asturias and Cantabria.    
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 03:06:56 PM »

One thing seems clear.  The Basques have a mix of P312 clades including substantial L21.   I understand that much of the rest is Z196 derived.  They seem like the south end of the stronger concentration of the L21 concentration running from their lands up to the Seine and the British Isles.  L21 in France and the Pyrennian area of Spain seems to me to display a kind of fringe distribution of high concentration somewhat like L21 does in the isles.  It kind of feels to me that L21 in Iberia is essentially part of the western Gaul pattern that runs all the way from the Pyrennes to Normandy.  I see L21 there as the south edge of the western Gaulish and British/Irish pattern of higher L21.  I think L21 is Iberia is just a continuation of this edge and modern national barriers should not blur this.    The fact that it includes both Celtic and non-Celtic speaking areas is problematic.

I think it is important to note that L21 is a minority among the Pyrennes whereas it is a majority in the more Celtic areas to the north in Brittany, Normandy and the Western part of the British Isles   I think that is a crucial point in terms of L21.  However, it is also worth observing that we have yet to see evidence of L21 being big in the west of Iberia where both beaker and Atlantic Bronze are generally thought to be strongest.  So, that is also an issue with the whole Atlantic Bronze idea.  As I posted in the past, L21 seems to divide rather than unite the Atlantic Bronze Areas into a high L21 area in the north and western Iberia where the evidence for high L21 has not year emerged.  However, surveys in recent papers seem to have not sampled crucial areas like Galicia and Portugal so you never know, it might yet emerge.  There was a slight elevation in L21 in northern Portugal in Myres if I recall correctly.  

Normally the reason given in the isles for the drop in L21 in the east is put down to dilution from Belgae, Romans and especially migration period Germanics.  I dont really see why this cannot be true on the continent despite the lack of a comparable language shift.  It is also possible that R1b is associated with pastoralists.  I understand that the Visigoths etc formed a strata of 10% of the population in Iberia but they were subsequently superconcentrated into Asturias and Cantabria.    

Bell Beakers are not just Bell Beakers. There are different types.

As you noted, L21's high concentrations are to the north of France and on in to the Isles.  Could this align with the Rhenish Bell Beaker types rather than the Western?  My suspicion is L21 was once very heavy in the Low Countries but has been washed over several times, probably by U152, U106 and I1 types.... the last groups being with the Germanic expansions.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 03:08:38 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 04:12:29 PM »

Bell Beakers are not just Bell Beakers. There are different types.

As you noted, L21's high concentrations are to the north of France and on in to the Isles.  Could this align with the Rhenish Bell Beaker types rather than the Western?  My suspicion is L21 was once very heavy in the Low Countries but has been washed over several times, probably by U152, U106 and I1 types.... the last groups being with the Germanic expansions.

It is interesting that in the FTDNA Benelux project, almost all L21 samples are in the Netherlands while almost all of the U152 samples are in Belgium.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=ymap
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 09:41:33 PM »

Bell Beakers are not just Bell Beakers. There are different types.

As you noted, L21's high concentrations are to the north of France and on in to the Isles.  Could this align with the Rhenish Bell Beaker types rather than the Western?  My suspicion is L21 was once very heavy in the Low Countries but has been washed over several times, probably by U152, U106 and I1 types.... the last groups being with the Germanic expansions.

It is interesting that in the FTDNA Benelux project, almost all L21 samples are in the Netherlands while almost all of the U152 samples are in Belgium.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=ymap

Thanks. Very interesting. I also had a look at the distribution of P312*, which is probably a composite of more than one subclade.
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 10:14:46 PM »

Bell Beakers are not just Bell Beakers. There are different types.

As you noted, L21's high concentrations are to the north of France and on in to the Isles.  Could this align with the Rhenish Bell Beaker types rather than the Western?  My suspicion is L21 was once very heavy in the Low Countries but has been washed over several times, probably by U152, U106 and I1 types.... the last groups being with the Germanic expansions.

It is interesting that in the FTDNA Benelux project, almost all L21 samples are in the Netherlands while almost all of the U152 samples are in Belgium.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=ymap

Thanks. Very interesting. I also had a look at the distribution of P312*, which is probably a composite of more than one subclade.

Matt Winters just posted a map of Z196+Z209+ kits. Interesting to see some in the Netherlands as well. Indeed the P312* samples from the Brabant study seems to be a hodge-podge of L21, DF19, DF27 and some yet unidentified SNPs.

Here is Matt's map http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=204676040713224454654.0004bd1d6a643e73505ec&msa=0
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 10:15:36 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 05:22:03 PM »

Bell Beakers are not just Bell Beakers. There are different types.

As you noted, L21's high concentrations are to the north of France and on in to the Isles.  Could this align with the Rhenish Bell Beaker types rather than the Western?  My suspicion is L21 was once very heavy in the Low Countries but has been washed over several times, probably by U152, U106 and I1 types.... the last groups being with the Germanic expansions.


It is interesting that in the FTDNA Benelux project, almost all L21 samples are in the Netherlands while almost all of the U152 samples are in Belgium.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=ymap

Don't forget of course that there was a fairly large migration from France to Netherlands in the 17th century. On the order of 75k-100k Hugenots. The population was about 2million at the time. There's a probability that some of the Dutch L21 is a result of this.
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 05:27:22 PM »

Bell Beakers are not just Bell Beakers. There are different types.

As you noted, L21's high concentrations are to the north of France and on in to the Isles.  Could this align with the Rhenish Bell Beaker types rather than the Western?  My suspicion is L21 was once very heavy in the Low Countries but has been washed over several times, probably by U152, U106 and I1 types.... the last groups being with the Germanic expansions.


It is interesting that in the FTDNA Benelux project, almost all L21 samples are in the Netherlands while almost all of the U152 samples are in Belgium.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/benelux/default.aspx?section=ymap

Even stranger is that most of the L21 in Holland was on the south/west side of the Lower Rhine (which has moved a bit by the way) last time I looked at the FTDNA L21 project maps.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 05:35:44 PM »

One thing seems clear.  The Basques have a mix of P312 clades including substantial L21.   I understand that much of the rest is Z196 derived.  They seem like the south end of the stronger concentration of the L21 concentration running from their lands up to the Seine and the British Isles.  L21 in France and the Pyrennian area of Spain seems to me to display a kind of fringe distribution of high concentration somewhat like L21 does in the isles.  It kind of feels to me that L21 in Iberia is essentially part of the western Gaul pattern that runs all the way from the Pyrennes to Normandy.  I see L21 there as the south edge of the western Gaulish and British/Irish pattern of higher L21.  I think L21 is Iberia is just a continuation of this edge and modern national barriers should not blur this.    The fact that it includes both Celtic and non-Celtic speaking areas is problematic.

I think it is important to note that L21 is a minority among the Pyrennes whereas it is a majority in the more Celtic areas to the north in Brittany, Normandy and the Western part of the British Isles   I think that is a crucial point in terms of L21.  However, it is also worth observing that we have yet to see evidence of L21 being big in the west of Iberia where both beaker and Atlantic Bronze are generally thought to be strongest.  So, that is also an issue with the whole Atlantic Bronze idea.  As I posted in the past, L21 seems to divide rather than unite the Atlantic Bronze Areas into a high L21 area in the north and western Iberia where the evidence for high L21 has not year emerged.  However, surveys in recent papers seem to have not sampled crucial areas like Galicia and Portugal so you never know, it might yet emerge.  There was a slight elevation in L21 in northern Portugal in Myres if I recall correctly.  

Normally the reason given in the isles for the drop in L21 in the east is put down to dilution from Belgae, Romans and especially migration period Germanics.  I dont really see why this cannot be true on the continent despite the lack of a comparable language shift.  It is also possible that R1b is associated with pastoralists.  I understand that the Visigoths etc formed a strata of 10% of the population in Iberia but they were subsequently superconcentrated into Asturias and Cantabria.    

Bell Beakers are not just Bell Beakers. There are different types.

As you noted, L21's high concentrations are to the north of France and on in to the Isles.  Could this align with the Rhenish Bell Beaker types rather than the Western?  My suspicion is L21 was once very heavy in the Low Countries but has been washed over several times, probably by U152, U106 and I1 types.... the last groups being with the Germanic expansions.



I kind of agree that L21 on the continent centred on France does give the superficial impression of having been diluted by other waves from the east much like it does in the isles.  I have no idea if that is the real reason though.  Does variance tell us anything?  I got the impression though that L21 variance dropped as we headed east and was quite low in Holland and eastwards and even somewhat lower in Germany than France. 
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