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Author Topic: R-M269+ Data from Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al(2012)  (Read 7263 times)
JeanL
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« on: March 13, 2012, 03:23:01 PM »

This recently published study:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091.abstract

On the supplementary table-S3a list the following frequencies for R-M269+ subclades in different Basques and nonBasque populations:

R-M153

Gascony

Bigorre: 2/44
Bearn: 9/56
Chalosse: 2/58

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 5/44
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 10/66
Zuberoa: 23/53

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 9/53
Central Western Nafarroa:10/60
North Western Nafarroa: 8/51

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 5/47
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 4/57
Araba: 2/51
Bizkaia: 7/57
Western Bizkaia: 3/19

North Spain

Cantabria: 0/18
Burgos: 2/20
La Rioja: 3/54
North Aragon: 5/27

I'll add more subclades later...
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 04:31:29 PM »

What other subclades were tested?
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 04:39:48 PM »

Here is a picture of Table S3a:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NxERymyEwD8/T1-EomYMZ_I/AAAAAAAAEmI/FpQMcnmLs0Y/s1600/yhaplogroup_basque.jpg
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 07:49:26 PM »

Very interesting.  Unless I am misinterpreting this.  L21 seems to be around 20% of the entire population in several of these areas.  That is surprisingly high.  Sort of suggests that the L21 peak in Iberian terms in that area noted in hobby testing is real.  If I recall Myres et al (who didnt cover the Basque area) did find L21 was by far the highest in Iberia in neighbouring Santander. We know NW France is also very high in L21.  We also know from Myres that France West has a decent L21 showing.  I think that means centre-west.  That is the 3rd independent bit of evidence to suggest that L21 in Iberia is concentrated in area in and adjacent to the Basque country.     
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2012, 08:02:58 PM »

I noticed that, too. The question now is what does it mean for L21?

It would be nice if we had the haplotypes. I haven't had a chance to look at that paper yet. Are they there?
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 08:08:34 PM »

Not sure what I make of it.  I hope people dont get hung up too much on the Basque thing.  They are the exception, not the rule, in the L21 world in terms of their language and L21 may have had no role in the language. 
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 01:27:11 AM »

Not sure what I make of it.  I hope people dont get hung up too much on the Basque thing.  They are the exception, not the rule, in the L21 world in terms of their language and L21 may have had no role in the language.  
I think the Basques have ancestry to Pre-Neolithic times in Europe, just that the P312 (including L21) lineages were not among them.

It is now appearing obvious that on the mt DNA side there is some continuity going back in time.  
"The Basque Paradigm: Genetic Evidence of a Maternal Continuity in the Franco-Cantabrian Region since Pre-Neolithic Times"
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2812%2900032-8

I think there may be some remnants of Y DNA lineages from Pre-Neolithic times as well, but they are likely to be something like I-M26.
Wikipedia says
Quote
Haplogroup I-M26 is practically absent east of France and Italy, while it is found at low but significant frequencies outside of Sardinia in the Balearic Islands, Castile-Leon, the Basque Country, the Pyrenees, southern and western France, and parts of the Maghreb in North Africa, Great Britain, and Ireland. Haplogroup I-M26 appears to be the only subclade of Haplogroup I found among the Basques, but appears to be found at somewhat higher frequencies among the general populations of Castile-Leon in Spain and Béarn in France than among the population of ethnic Basques[citation needed]. The M26 mutation is found in native males inhabiting every geographic region where megaliths may be found, including such far-flung and culturally disconnected regions as the Canary Islands, the Balearic Isles, Corsica, Ireland, and Sweden

Lineages that were Pre-Neolithic should have leaked a little more broadly down into Iberia and the Mediterranean than L21 did.

The more I think about it, the more this shows R-L11 subclades must not have been Pre-Neolithic, and was only a late incursion.  The whole distribution of L21, U152, U106, etc. is fairly segregated and contiguous... not patchy like some pieces of hg I.

P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 09:08:17 AM »

Not sure what I make of it.  I hope people dont get hung up too much on the Basque thing.  They are the exception, not the rule, in the L21 world in terms of their language and L21 may have had no role in the language.  
I think the Basques have ancestry to Pre-Neolithic times in Europe, just that the P312 (including L21) lineages were not among them.

It is now appearing obvious that on the mt DNA side there is some continuity going back in time.  
"The Basque Paradigm: Genetic Evidence of a Maternal Continuity in the Franco-Cantabrian Region since Pre-Neolithic Times"
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2812%2900032-8

I think there may be some remnants of Y DNA lineages from Pre-Neolithic times as well, but they are likely to be something like I-M26.
Wikipedia says
Quote
Haplogroup I-M26 is practically absent east of France and Italy, while it is found at low but significant frequencies outside of Sardinia in the Balearic Islands, Castile-Leon, the Basque Country, the Pyrenees, southern and western France, and parts of the Maghreb in North Africa, Great Britain, and Ireland. Haplogroup I-M26 appears to be the only subclade of Haplogroup I found among the Basques, but appears to be found at somewhat higher frequencies among the general populations of Castile-Leon in Spain and Béarn in France than among the population of ethnic Basques[citation needed]. The M26 mutation is found in native males inhabiting every geographic region where megaliths may be found, including such far-flung and culturally disconnected regions as the Canary Islands, the Balearic Isles, Corsica, Ireland, and Sweden

Lineages that were Pre-Neolithic should have leaked a little more broadly down into Iberia and the Mediterranean than L21 did.

The more I think about it, the more this shows R-L11 subclades must not have been Pre-Neolithic, and was only a late incursion.  The whole distribution of L21, U152, U106, etc. is fairly segregated and contiguous... not patchy like some pieces of hg I.

P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?



Certainly not Urnfield as NE Iberia (especially Catalonia) was the only area of Urnfield penetration. P312 (and with it Z196) is too common throughout all of Iberia to link it to Urnfield.

As for Celt-Iberian, that label seems entirely too young considering the probable total age of P312.
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 09:32:09 AM »

... Lineages that were Pre-Neolithic should have leaked a little more broadly down into Iberia and the Mediterranean than L21 did.

The more I think about it, the more this shows R-L11 subclades must not have been Pre-Neolithic, and was only a late incursion.  The whole distribution of L21, U152, U106, etc. is fairly segregated and contiguous... not patchy like some pieces of hg I.

P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?
Certainly not Urnfield as NE Iberia (especially Catalonia) was the only area of Urnfield penetration. P312 (and with it Z196) is too common throughout all of Iberia to link it to Urnfield.

As for Celt-Iberian, that label seems entirely too young considering the probable total age of P312.

I agree that P312 does not show a denser pattern* in NE Iberia, but we know that  large portion of Z196, SRY2627, is heaviest in NE Iberia so that Z196 is still a possibility. Still, I agree that Urnfield is not the greatest of matches for P312 and is just another consideration?

As far as the Celtiberians, do we know the direction of their spread through Iberia? If they are just descendants of an pre-Celtic or proto-Celtic speaking Bell Beakers they might still be part of the scenario of if there spread was relatively wide. What is the timing and spread of the Celts that fought with the Iberians and then integrated?  

What about Ligurians? Did they reach into Spain?

* The caveat here is we do not really have a good picture for R-M269 diversity within the Iberian Peninsula. Higher frequency does not necessarily indicate an origin. Does this paper show diversity by region? Diversity among the L21 and M153 does NOT look high among the Basques.

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razyn
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2012, 09:35:57 AM »

P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?

Bell Beakers?  Stelae People?  We can say a lot of things, although some that have already been said are getting increasingly untenable.  And that's a good thing.  Anyway, watch Batch 454; testing for Z-SNPs under Z196 has at last begun.  There will be something for you to to compare with SRY2627 and that crowd (the L176.2 side of the family).  One hopes, we may find the SNP for the N/S cluster -- that stretches from Russia to Portugal, and is not young.  Anyway, your short list of usefully comparable variances should get a little longer in the near future.  Of course we'll then have the problem of amassing enough guys with any particular terminal SNP who have tested to 67 markers... and so it goes.

In any case we'll be able to focus in a lot more tightly than a regional survey of R-M269, useful as that may be in concept.  The academics will still have something to aspire to.  I wonder whether the people who will match up the YDNA, artifacts, linguistics and other evidence are even in grad school yet.  It's kind of fun trying to guess what their papers will say... one of these days.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2012, 09:56:19 AM »

... Lineages that were Pre-Neolithic should have leaked a little more broadly down into Iberia and the Mediterranean than L21 did.

The more I think about it, the more this shows R-L11 subclades must not have been Pre-Neolithic, and was only a late incursion.  The whole distribution of L21, U152, U106, etc. is fairly segregated and contiguous... not patchy like some pieces of hg I.

P312 is somewhat the exception, but we should not view P312 as just P312. It is really L21, U152, Z196 and unknown other lineages, all that appear to be Bronze Age TMRCAs.

Z196 is the most far flung (and patchy) of the known subclades of P312 so it is the exceptional part of P312. Geographically, one could make the case that Z196 was older but it can't be older than the interclade MRCA for P312 and U106. Z196 does stretch down through out the Iberian Peninsula.   umm...  can anyone say Celtiberian?  or Urnfield maybe ?
Certainly not Urnfield as NE Iberia (especially Catalonia) was the only area of Urnfield penetration. P312 (and with it Z196) is too common throughout all of Iberia to link it to Urnfield.

As for Celt-Iberian, that label seems entirely too young considering the probable total age of P312.

I agree that P312 does not show a denser pattern* in NE Iberia, but we know that  large portion of Z196, SRY2627, is heaviest in NE Iberia so that Z196 is still a possibility. Still, I agree that Urnfield is not the greatest of matches for P312 and is just another consideration?

As far as the Celtiberians, do we know the direction of their spread through Iberia? If they are just descendants of an pre-Celtic or proto-Celtic speaking Bell Beakers they might still be part of the scenario of if there spread was relatively wide. What is the timing and spread of the Celts that fought with the Iberians and then integrated?  

What about Ligurians? Did they reach into Spain?

* The caveat here is we do not really have a good picture for R-M269 diversity within the Iberian Peninsula. Higher frequency does not necessarily indicate an origin. Does this paper show diversity by region? Diversity among the L21 and M153 does NOT look high among the Basques.



Yes, according to ancient writers the Ligurians stretched out from modern day Liguria, Italy to the eastern shores of Spain.

Interestingly for U152, frequency is very low (2.6%) on both sides of the Pyrenes and is consistent with the U152 FTDNA project. L2+ (incl. L20) samples seem to be much more frequent than U152* which of course could include some Z36 and Z56 samples. This is consistent with the Catalan region in our project which seems to be the only area of Spain with L2 or L20.
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2012, 03:47:09 PM »

I-M26 has an elevated frequency for the Basques and seems to be more unique to the Basques than the other y-hg's.  Ken Nordtvedt's site has hg I-M26 listed age as 6000 ybp with a map showing its' movment from SE Europe to Iberia(and Sardinia) and finally to Britain.  Perhaps, the proto-Basques were among the megalith builders. 

Wikipedia has a page for pre-IE languages which show a similiar trail to Nordtvedt's I-M26.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Indo-European_languages
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2012, 08:06:38 PM »

I suspect the Basques and perhaps the Gascons were originally I-M26 but have become mostly R1b1a2 over time via admixture. Something similar happened with the Ossetians, who now resemble their Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2 of some kind.
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2012, 04:12:42 AM »

I suspect the Basques and perhaps the Gascons were originally I-M26 but have become mostly R1b1a2 over time via admixture. Something similar happened with the Ossetians, who now resemble their Caucasian neighbors in being mostly G2 of some kind.
In the table the proportion of I-M26 in North Aragon is superior to any of the Basque or Gascon regions except for Zuberoa, I don´t think the data point to an original I-M26 population. Besides, it is supposed some of the particularities of Basque population is related to isolation, id est, low admixture.
IMO Basque population is a branch of ancient Aquitanians that arrived to modern Spanish Basque country in the 5th century AD, taking advantage of the fall of the Roman Empire. They pushed the Romanoceltic population south of the Basque Mountains and then lived in a relative isolation from neighbours because of their disctintive pastoralist society (which selected the very high Lactase Persistence) and particular language (No longer spoken by the Gascon population).
The important presence of L-21 shows Basques are more closely related to Gascons than to Iberians, and it is another element addding to the late Basque arrival theory.
The "Original" Haplogroup of Basque population is probably older than Basque language, and its ethnogenesis.
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2012, 07:43:38 PM »

I think the admixture was almost totally male vectored and may have come sufficiently long ago that the isolation of the Basques occurred after the infusion of R1b and lactase persistence.

I follow your theory, which is reasonable and worth considering.

Where did the ancient Aquitanians come from before Aquitaine?
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 04:21:27 AM »



Where did the ancient Aquitanians come from before Aquitaine?
If they are not descendant of the Paleolithic population, then the alternative would be Bell Beakers. The Neolithic transition is very late in the area except for some isolated sites and there is little change in the archaeological record, it is the Bell Beaker period which shows imporatnt transformations in the archaeological record.
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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 01:24:08 PM »



Where did the ancient Aquitanians come from before Aquitaine?
If they are not descendant of the Paleolithic population, then the alternative would be Bell Beakers. The Neolithic transition is very late in the area except for some isolated sites and there is little change in the archaeological record, it is the Bell Beaker period which shows imporatnt transformations in the archaeological record.

Wikipedia mentions the Artenacian culture in copper age Charentes.  I'm trying to find some papers on this.  My guess is that the proto-Basques were initially a late neolithic/copper age maritime arrival who assimiliated other people by marriage into their colonies.  I don't see anything in their DNA, autosomal or lineage to suggest a pre-neolithic signature.
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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 07:12:22 PM »

One thing to bear in mind is Gallia Aquitania was a mix of Celtic and proto-Basque peoples rather than a solid block.  I believe Acquitania had 20 Aquitanian and 14 Celtic tribes.  Its also suspected that the Spanish Basque country at least partly was occupied by Celtic tribes.  So, the situation is complex.  I would suspect L21 is more related to the Celtic element in Aquitania.  In fact high L21 is very strongly linked with the last bastions of Celtic speaking/areas where the post-Roman influx was lesser.  

The wiki page is useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallia_Aquitania
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2012, 04:08:49 AM »



Where did the ancient Aquitanians come from before Aquitaine?
If they are not descendant of the Paleolithic population, then the alternative would be Bell Beakers. The Neolithic transition is very late in the area except for some isolated sites and there is little change in the archaeological record, it is the Bell Beaker period which shows imporatnt transformations in the archaeological record.

Wikipedia mentions the Artenacian culture in copper age Charentes.  I'm trying to find some papers on this.  My guess is that the proto-Basques were initially a late neolithic/copper age maritime arrival who assimiliated other people by marriage into their colonies.  I don't see anything in their DNA, autosomal or lineage to suggest a pre-neolithic signature.
Why a maritime arrival?
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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2012, 04:12:35 AM »

One thing to bear in mind is Gallia Aquitania was a mix of Celtic and proto-Basque peoples rather than a solid block.  I believe Acquitania had 20 Aquitanian and 14 Celtic tribes.  Its also suspected that the Spanish Basque country at least partly was occupied by Celtic tribes.  So, the situation is complex.  I would suspect L21 is more related to the Celtic element in Aquitania.  In fact high L21 is very strongly linked with the last bastions of Celtic speaking/areas where the post-Roman influx was lesser.  

The wiki page is useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallia_Aquitania
But that was because Gallia Aquitania was an administrative Roman province that extended beyond the Garonne, the historical limit of Aquitani, to the Loire, so including such characteristic Celtic tribes as the Arverni.
As for the Celtic in the Spanish Basque Country, that is true, and I think they were pushed back by the Basques when they arrived around 5th century AD. But I don´t see those Celtic related to L21, because there were other Celtic populations in the adjacent regions of Spain and they are very low in L21.
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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2012, 10:38:03 AM »


Wikipedia mentions the Artenacian culture in copper age Charentes.  I'm trying to find some papers on this.  My guess is that the proto-Basques were initially a late neolithic/copper age maritime arrival who assimiliated other people by marriage into their colonies.  I don't see anything in their DNA, autosomal or lineage to suggest a pre-neolithic signature.
Why a maritime arrival?

Just speculation, but here is my reasoning: 
1- Distinct presence of I-M26 in Sardinia and Basques with a proposed origin in SE Europe by Nordtvedt in 4000 BC.  By this time, some form of proto-IE was being spoken in SE Europe after the collapse of the old farming cultures there.  I think it is unlikely a non-IE language would go overland without its people being absorbed by IE speakers. 
2- Numerous dolmens and other megalithic structures in the Basque region.  Megaliths are found mostly near a coast, Stonehenge an exception.
3- Almost all ancient non-IE languages are found in Mediterranean Europe.  Some may have pre-neolithic origins.  I suspect many were brought by the Impressed ware and Megalithic peoples.
4- Fingernail impressed ceramics were used by the Artenacians or proto-Aquitani around 2400 BC.  This style did have parallels in Funnelbeaker and Corded-ware, but also among the people around Monte Covolo, north Italy which suggests a possible mediterranean route.
5 - I think the best support is the autosomal DNA, where Dienekes has found a strong connection between the Basques and Sardinians.  The Basques are less close to their immediate neighbors, the French and Spanish.
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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2012, 06:15:12 AM »

. . .
5 - I think the best support is the autosomal DNA, where Dienekes has found a strong connection between the Basques and Sardinians.  The Basques are less close to their immediate neighbors, the French and Spanish.

That is another reason to suspect that the Basques were not originally R1b in their y-dna but were mostly I-M26.

A comparatively few generations of drift in a small, isolated community can alter the y-dna landscape considerably.
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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2012, 05:42:45 PM »



5 - I think the best support is the autosomal DNA, where Dienekes has found a strong connection between the Basques and Sardinians.  The Basques are less close to their immediate neighbors, the French and Spanish.
That is interesting, do you have  a link?
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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2012, 10:00:37 PM »

5 - I think the best support is the autosomal DNA, where Dienekes has found a strong connection between the Basques and Sardinians.  The Basques are less close to their immediate neighbors, the French and Spanish.
That is interesting, do you have  a link?

Here is mainly what I'm referring to, although I should've been more clear.  I'm not saying today's Basque and Sardinians are one and the same.  What they do have in common is a shared ancient mediterranean, autosomal component that distinguishes them from other neighboring populations.  It's not a 1 to 1 match, nor would I expect it to be.  Basques do have some northern european admixture whereas the Sardinians do not, but we also know Basques carry alot of R1b to explain that.  I think the common mediterranean component coupled with I-M26 also found in the Sardinians is the key.  See the K12b spreadsheet.  If Basques were ice age survivors, they would have a much stronger northern european component that they would share with people who went north out of the refugiums, imo.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html

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« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2012, 08:13:31 AM »

But watching tha spreadsheet you find that Spanish as a whole are a much better match, as it should be in autosomal, with a high "Atlantic Mediterranean" component and a sizeable "Northern European" component, and I-M26 in Spain as a whole is very low, so I don´t think the common mediterranean component coupled with I-M26.
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