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Arch Y.
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« Reply #550 on: July 04, 2013, 02:56:20 AM »

what group are you in Arch?
A0 - I think

Arch
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #551 on: July 04, 2013, 02:59:02 AM »

Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

What intrigues me how I am not in a group with Alberti when he's my closest GD at 67 markers tested. The other one is how many unusual markers I have with L165 types and I'm not 'clustered' near them.

Arch

Arch -

Knowing that your terminal SNP is L659+, I am wondering whether you have any SNPs between SRY2627+ and L659+ and/or if you might have any SNPs downstream from L659+. If your Walk the Y results were used to make it possible for Geno 2.0 participants to test L659+, you might be able to take a free Geno 2.0 test. Let me see what I can find out.

Stephen

Okay, sounds good - keep me posted.

Arch
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Stephen Parrish
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« Reply #552 on: July 04, 2013, 12:52:41 PM »

Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

I received some news from FTDNA regarding the test for CTS 4299-- they "had to redesign the primers used for this specific SNP (basically construct a new way of testing for the SNP to make it more reliable). "  The process is on hold with no definite timetable.  However, those of you who may have tested for this marker may wish to have the test re-run once they redesign it...

Jason -

How will the news that you received from FTDNA affect FTDNA SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ project members who found out by testing directly with FTDNA that they have CTS4299+?

Stephen

Stephen

My result was run and came back CTS4299+ yesterday.  I would recommend that the project group administrators contact FTDNA and request that this test be re-run for the other members as well.

Jason -

Thank you for your reply and your suggestion. I will contact the project administrators and/or now that I am that project's co-administrator, I will contact FTDNA directly.

Stephen
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Y-DNA: R-SRY2627+ (terminal SNP: R-CTS4299+)
mtDNA: H2a2a1
Administrator, Parrish/Parish, Maxfield, and Wrigley DNA Projects
Administrator, Maryland DNA Project
Co-administrator, Early New England Colonist, SRY2627+, and DF27+ Projects
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« Reply #553 on: July 04, 2013, 01:01:23 PM »

what group are you in Arch?
A0 - I think

Arch

Arch -

You are in group A0. :)

Stephen
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Y-DNA: R-SRY2627+ (terminal SNP: R-CTS4299+)
mtDNA: H2a2a1
Administrator, Parrish/Parish, Maxfield, and Wrigley DNA Projects
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Co-administrator, Early New England Colonist, SRY2627+, and DF27+ Projects
Stephen Parrish
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« Reply #554 on: July 04, 2013, 01:05:00 PM »

Are the SRY2627  FTDNA study group like say my Group A0 Family Groups?

What the SRY2627+ Project's group A0 members have in common is DYS490 = 10; group A0, like other groups in the SRY2627+ Project, is not really a family group. As members of that group test SNPs under SRY2627+ (CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+, for example), those members will probably be moved to other groups in the project if they test positive for any SNP known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

What intrigues me how I am not in a group with Alberti when he's my closest GD at 67 markers tested. The other one is how many unusual markers I have with L165 types and I'm not 'clustered' near them.

Arch

Arch -

Knowing that your terminal SNP is L659+, I am wondering whether you have any SNPs between SRY2627+ and L659+ and/or if you might have any SNPs downstream from L659+. If your Walk the Y results were used to make it possible for Geno 2.0 participants to test L659+, you might be able to take a free Geno 2.0 test. Let me see what I can find out.

Stephen

Okay, sounds good - keep me posted.

Arch

Arch -

Here is the reply that I received in another forum: "FTDNA never disclosed the precise criteria they used to provide complimentary Geno 2.0 tests to a subset of the WTY customers. It was a one time thing, though, so there will not be any additional complimentary tests done."

Stephen
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Y-DNA: R-SRY2627+ (terminal SNP: R-CTS4299+)
mtDNA: H2a2a1
Administrator, Parrish/Parish, Maxfield, and Wrigley DNA Projects
Administrator, Maryland DNA Project
Co-administrator, Early New England Colonist, SRY2627+, and DF27+ Projects
Arch Y.
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« Reply #555 on: July 05, 2013, 02:44:08 AM »

Oh well! Thanks for asking and trying!

Arch
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #556 on: July 13, 2013, 03:57:57 AM »

I wonder if it's possible to extract DNA or at least strontium isotopes from the teeth of the skulls found at the ancient Iberian hillfort of Ullastret.

Arch
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« Reply #557 on: July 13, 2013, 09:11:35 AM »

I wonder if it's possible to extract DNA or at least strontium isotopes from the teeth of the skulls found at the ancient Iberian hillfort of Ullastret.

Arch

Arch -

Which radioactive isotopes of strontium do you have in mind? Strontium 90's half life is about 28 years; strontium's other radioactive isotopes have shorter half lives than strontium 90.

Stephen

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Y-DNA: R-SRY2627+ (terminal SNP: R-CTS4299+)
mtDNA: H2a2a1
Administrator, Parrish/Parish, Maxfield, and Wrigley DNA Projects
Administrator, Maryland DNA Project
Co-administrator, Early New England Colonist, SRY2627+, and DF27+ Projects
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« Reply #558 on: July 21, 2013, 02:11:51 AM »

I posted this elsewhere, but I forgot we aren't of the N/S mega cluster side of Z196, so it pretty much fell on deaf ears..

There are around 25 to 30 L176.2 people in the French Heritage project. 25 of those are SRY2627. Certainly nothing to sneeze at. A couple of these are L176.2* and there is at least one L165 person. Their distribution didn't show a preference for any region in particular, but there was more of a pull to the west. Very impressive for a country that has barely been scratched. 

I've also been emailing my supposed SRY2627 cousin who has ancestry to Brittany. Our tmrca was around 1000 years ago.. This fellow is an expert, if you will, in Celtic languages and he believe that his surname may have been a Brythonic word meaning "Merchant", which eventually formed into the modern version of his name. If this is the case, then our SRY2627 line was in Britain well before the middle ages and was probably Gaulish spill over from the Iron age. Making the Dumnonia tribe of Devon and Cornwall, a possible ancient ethnic association.

That's what I'm whittling at the moment.
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« Reply #559 on: July 21, 2013, 06:46:50 AM »

I posted this elsewhere, but I forgot we aren't of the N/S mega cluster side of Z196, so it pretty much fell on deaf ears..

There are around 25 to 30 L176.2 people in the French Heritage project. 25 of those are SRY2627. Certainly nothing to sneeze at. A couple of these are L176.2* and there is at least one L165 person. Their distribution didn't show a preference for any region in particular, but there was more of a pull to the west. Very impressive for a country that has barely been scratched. 

I've also been emailing my supposed SRY2627 cousin who has ancestry to Brittany. Our tmrca was around 1000 years ago.. This fellow is an expert, if you will, in Celtic languages and he believe that his surname may have been a Brythonic word meaning "Merchant", which eventually formed into the modern version of his name. If this is the case, then our SRY2627 line was in Britain well before the middle ages and was probably Gaulish spill over from the Iron age. Making the Dumnonia tribe of Devon and Cornwall, a possible ancient ethnic association.

That's what I'm whittling at the moment.

Sam, I don't know if you have been reading the updates on the anthrogenica site or not, but it looks like DF17 broke off much closer to Z209 as the one Geno 2.0 DF17 result and two French heritage results are positive for Z274.  All of the North/South cluster Geno 2.0 results are positive for Z274 as well.  Z274 sits somewhere between Z196 and Z209.  If you notice on the DF27 project, DF17 has no Spanish results.  It looks like the closer you get to Z196 the less Spanish our group looks.
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William B. Webb
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #560 on: July 21, 2013, 03:49:11 PM »

I posted this elsewhere, but I forgot we aren't of the N/S mega cluster side of Z196, so it pretty much fell on deaf ears..

There are around 25 to 30 L176.2 people in the French Heritage project. 25 of those are SRY2627. Certainly nothing to sneeze at. A couple of these are L176.2* and there is at least one L165 person. Their distribution didn't show a preference for any region in particular, but there was more of a pull to the west. Very impressive for a country that has barely been scratched.  

I've also been emailing my supposed SRY2627 cousin who has ancestry to Brittany. Our tmrca was around 1000 years ago.. This fellow is an expert, if you will, in Celtic languages and he believe that his surname may have been a Brythonic word meaning "Merchant", which eventually formed into the modern version of his name. If this is the case, then our SRY2627 line was in Britain well before the middle ages and was probably Gaulish spill over from the Iron age. Making the Dumnonia tribe of Devon and Cornwall, a possible ancient ethnic association.

That's what I'm whittling at the moment.

Maybe would could just cover all ground by saying our ancestors came from all over the Roman Empire, some arrived in Britain as early as 46 AD (since there's no real indication that J.C. settled anybody after his expeditions, but you never know). The spread of SRY2627 is so much that it's almost difficult to associate it with an Iron Age  origins or culture - it's just simply too old for that. However, what could be another possible explanation is our spread and our current frequency distribution is related to the Roman expansion and resettlement of various cultures/peoples from all over Europe and North Africa, perhaps some day we'll find SRY2627 in Anatolia and in the Middle East (the other regions where the Empire expanded). We have SRY2627 in Tunisia and as far north as Sweden. Either the Bronze Age trade-exchange networks  made such a wide distribution or some massive event such as the Roman expansion makes SRY2627 widely found. I'm sure events over time whether historic or not will spread any members of a subclade around but when there are groups of people all over in pockets of far flung areas it makes me wonder what happened. How did that particular group or families end up in Tunisia, Hungary, Romania, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland and with the still frequency distribution in Spain, specifically Catalonia.

The first thought that comes to my mind is either SRY2627 is connected to an Ibero-Urnfield Bronze Age spread that connected us with the Greek mercantile colonial spread from Phoca/Foca Turkey which could have easily connected to your lineage in Devon, your 'cousin's' lineage in Brittany and other's near Nantes along the Loire River and ancient Pictavia in Gallia. The connection to the Mediterranean could be made with Marseilles or old Massillia and Empuries and possibly Ullastret). If I'm not mistaken we have Greek wares in Hueneburg from Massillia and as well SRY2627 in SW Germany today. To make it more complicated we have SRY2627 in Tunisia, Sicily, and southern Italy. Areas that were contested not only between the Greeks and Carthaginians, and then the Carthaginians and Romans but also where the Celtiberians/Iberians such as the Illergetes and possibly the Indigetes can be found as once allies of Carthage.  

Then I have to ask what brought SRY2627 up to Sweden, Poland, Eastern parts of Germany, Belgium as well Britain and Ireland. The German Volkswandering does not really answer that question completely but I am reminded we did have Vandals in North Africa who originated near Poland and the Visigoths from near proximity to the Baltic Sea and found in Southern France - Toulouse being the first capital of a true Barbarian kingdom and pushed or was forced its way south by other Germanic people called the Franks. The Vandals set up their kingdom in what is modern day Galicia. Which I find odd that Britons would flee to a Germanic region from the Saxon invasion period and then to my point about Brittany where Britons did flee too but Brittany does not have a strong Germanic presence even though to the north of them they faced the Normans and to the south they had the Pictones of Poitou and Aquitani which in of itself was already under Visigothic rule.

It's really tough to paint a picture of SRY2627 being anywhere associated with these regions I just mentioned during the Iron Age because of the frequency distribution we see today and the variance being so quite widespread. So what exactly caused this distribution? I would say all the big historic events since the Late Bronze Age did, first with the Bronze-Age trade exchange networks which would be in great part of the 'Celtic' expansion if there really was such a thing, the Roman Empire, the great wondering of the Germanic peoples. Then the question has to be asked where from did this spread originate with SRY2627? I think once we can pinpoint a specific region with more accuracy as to origins then we'll have our answer, or at least be closer to a realistic one.

This is why I have held onto the NE Catalonia/Pyrenean region for such a long time. It's an area where many cultures collide. Urnfield, Ligurians, Aquitani, Iberians, Celtiberians, La Tene era Celts or Iberian Celts, Greeks, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans, Visigoths, Moors, Franks, etc. I think we would be hard pressed to find any other region in Europe that has so much diversity in cultural contacts than in the region of NE Iberia from where the Pyrenees meets the coastline to Val d'Aran and south to the Ebro River. With all that cultural contact from Ullastret all the way to Tivissa (the ancient great Iberian hillforts) it makes me wonder is this exactly where SRY2627 spread from in its greatest numbers even if it did not possibly originate in Iberia itself.

Arch
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 07:10:51 PM by Arch Y. » Logged
samIsaack
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« Reply #561 on: July 21, 2013, 06:20:02 PM »

@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #562 on: July 24, 2013, 07:18:45 PM »

@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch
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samIsaack
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« Reply #563 on: July 25, 2013, 05:38:53 PM »

I posted this elsewhere, but I forgot we aren't of the N/S mega cluster side of Z196, so it pretty much fell on deaf ears..

There are around 25 to 30 L176.2 people in the French Heritage project. 25 of those are SRY2627. Certainly nothing to sneeze at. A couple of these are L176.2* and there is at least one L165 person. Their distribution didn't show a preference for any region in particular, but there was more of a pull to the west. Very impressive for a country that has barely been scratched. 

I've also been emailing my supposed SRY2627 cousin who has ancestry to Brittany. Our tmrca was around 1000 years ago.. This fellow is an expert, if you will, in Celtic languages and he believe that his surname may have been a Brythonic word meaning "Merchant", which eventually formed into the modern version of his name. If this is the case, then our SRY2627 line was in Britain well before the middle ages and was probably Gaulish spill over from the Iron age. Making the Dumnonia tribe of Devon and Cornwall, a possible ancient ethnic association.

That's what I'm whittling at the moment.

Sam, I don't know if you have been reading the updates on the anthrogenica site or not, but it looks like DF17 broke off much closer to Z209 as the one Geno 2.0 DF17 result and two French heritage results are positive for Z274.  All of the North/South cluster Geno 2.0 results are positive for Z274 as well.  Z274 sits somewhere between Z196 and Z209.  If you notice on the DF27 project, DF17 has no Spanish results.  It looks like the closer you get to Z196 the less Spanish our group looks.

That is interesting. I wasn't aware of the closeness to Z209, but I was aware of its geographical distribution. It reminds me of L165, a strong preference to the north, but with "southern" cousins. Thanks for the update!
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« Reply #564 on: July 25, 2013, 05:45:10 PM »

@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch

Thanks, Arch. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I just wanted to clear up any confusion I might have caused by the way I phrased "Our SRY2627 line".

Here's an excerpt from an email sent to me by my Breton "cousin"..

"I was looking at the map of the SRY2627 again and there is something that geographically links all of them . The places we found us represent the places these 6 CELTIC Tribes called: BOII, BELGAE, PARISII, BRIGANTES, VENETII and AIRENOSI
These four GAUL tribes have been historically in all the places SRY2627 are:

1_THE BOII (with their subclades BOIATES and perhaps BAIOCASSES) have been in Switzerland (after a battle), Sicilia, North Italie, East Europe, Germany and Austria... and more.
2_The BELGAE in BELGIUM, ENGLAND and IRELAND ("FIR BOLG" according to the book of the conquests)
3_The PARISII in FRANCE (in paris region) and ENGLAND (neighbour of the Brigantes)
4_The VENETII in NORTH WALES, SOUTH BRITTANY and perhaps NORTH ITALY (VENETI)
5_THE BRIGANTES in IRELAND and NORTH ENGLAND/SCOTLAND (PARISII's neighbors) and ALPS (BRIGANTII)
6_AIRENOSI (whose origin is not confirmed to have been Aquitanian or Iberian) in the VAL d'ARAN"

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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

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« Reply #565 on: July 25, 2013, 07:45:39 PM »


Sam

I am sorry but I do not understand your note about the L165 having a strong preference to the north, but with “southern“cousins.  With my terminal clade being SNP L165 I have noted a much stronger preference to the L165 south England cluster than our L165 north Hebredian cluster in our Group which makes me think the migrations was from south to north with the mystery being why are their no SNP traces between the South Central England cluster and the North Hebredian cluster.  (The small distribution of L165 in north Norse areas is probably displaced slaves taken North during the Viking plundering down in Scotland.)  Also with L165 and SRY2627 being so close together in the Phylogenetic Tree makes me wonder why we do not find a closer number of both L165 and SRY2627 SNPs clusters together in geographical groupings?  (With both the L165 north cluster and L165 south cluster both being so close to either the Callanish stone circle of the Isle of Lewis or the Stonehenge stone circle of south England it also makes you wonder if there is a relationship as builder of these engineered structures.)       
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« Reply #566 on: July 25, 2013, 09:55:08 PM »


Sam

I am sorry but I do not understand your note about the L165 having a strong preference to the north, but with “southern“cousins.  With my terminal clade being SNP L165 I have noted a much stronger preference to the L165 south England cluster than our L165 north Hebredian cluster in our Group which makes me think the migrations was from south to north with the mystery being why are their no SNP traces between the South Central England cluster and the North Hebredian cluster.  (The small distribution of L165 in north Norse areas is probably displaced slaves taken North during the Viking plundering down in Scotland.)  Also with L165 and SRY2627 being so close together in the Phylogenetic Tree makes me wonder why we do not find a closer number of both L165 and SRY2627 SNPs clusters together in geographical groupings?  (With both the L165 north cluster and L165 south cluster both being so close to either the Callanish stone circle of the Isle of Lewis or the Stonehenge stone circle of south England it also makes you wonder if there is a relationship as builder of these engineered structures.)       


What I meant by my statement was that L165 has thus far had a better showing in Scotland. It is an intriguing sub clade and I, like you, would like to know why it hasn't been found in the mainland of Europe. A French sample and I believe a Spanish sample have turned up, but the rest are Scottish or English. I too am of the belief that L165 probably wasn't brought in by the Vikings. It probably made it's way into the Isles the same way that SRY2627 did. Perhaps L165 didn't occur until it reached the Isles? Maybe the earlier branching of SRY2627 DYS490=12 and L176.2* travelled there via trading between Atlantic Britain, France and Spain. As you may well know, SRY2627 seems to have its best showing in Southwest England, so maybe there is a connection between those who built Stonehenge and those who built the Callanish stone circle. How old is L165 estimated to be?
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« Reply #567 on: July 25, 2013, 11:41:32 PM »


Sam

The L165 is noted to be 2,750 to 3,500 years in age.  However, any other information in regard to L165 seems to be very sparse.

It is certainly interesting how the recent new ISOGG Phylogenetic Tree of July 23, 2013 has change the array of SNPs emanating from Z196 and isolating those emanating from L176.2 like C4188, L165, and (Z262)-SRY2627 over the last few months.

This Tree is quickly changing and will be interesting to follow.  Hopefully L165 will also finally have some further developments evolve from these new findings.

The new R1b-DF27 and Subclades Project Group that is being formed now will be a help with these developments.
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« Reply #568 on: July 27, 2013, 07:49:04 AM »

@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch

Thanks, Arch. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I just wanted to clear up any confusion I might have caused by the way I phrased "Our SRY2627 line".

Here's an excerpt from an email sent to me by my Breton "cousin"..

"I was looking at the map of the SRY2627 again and there is something that geographically links all of them . The places we found us represent the places these 6 CELTIC Tribes called: BOII, BELGAE, PARISII, BRIGANTES, VENETII and AIRENOSI
These four GAUL tribes have been historically in all the places SRY2627 are:

1_THE BOII (with their subclades BOIATES and perhaps BAIOCASSES) have been in Switzerland (after a battle), Sicilia, North Italie, East Europe, Germany and Austria... and more.
2_The BELGAE in BELGIUM, ENGLAND and IRELAND ("FIR BOLG" according to the book of the conquests)
3_The PARISII in FRANCE (in paris region) and ENGLAND (neighbour of the Brigantes)
4_The VENETII in NORTH WALES, SOUTH BRITTANY and perhaps NORTH ITALY (VENETI)
5_THE BRIGANTES in IRELAND and NORTH ENGLAND/SCOTLAND (PARISII's neighbors) and ALPS (BRIGANTII)
6_AIRENOSI (whose origin is not confirmed to have been Aquitanian or Iberian) in the VAL d'ARAN"



I wouldn't get too wrapped around the place-name etymology of words as it relates to identifying tribes. Keep in mind many of these people were named by the Greeks and Romans which often was a very distorted picture. The Pictones in Pictavia en Gallia could easily be confused with the Picts in Northern Scotland. Just as the Greek explorers confused the Silures with the Iberians because of the way the looked. I have a tendency to go that route thinking "Aha! This is a connection!" but reality checks hit me hard and back to square zero and nothing has been accomplished.

Arch
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« Reply #569 on: August 16, 2013, 03:07:50 AM »

It certainly is nice to see some Catalan SRY2627 peeps in YSearch. Anybody reach out to them and have them join the SRY2627 project? Edit: Never mind I just noticed them already in. Stephen is on top of things! Has Antoni Homs been contacted?

Arch
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 03:18:47 AM by Arch Y. » Logged
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« Reply #570 on: August 16, 2013, 07:58:12 AM »

@Arch


I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch

Thanks, Arch. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I just wanted to clear up any confusion I might have caused by the way I phrased "Our SRY2627 line".

Here's an excerpt from an email sent to me by my Breton "cousin"..

"I was looking at the map of the SRY2627 again and there is something that geographically links all of them . The places we found us represent the places these 6 CELTIC Tribes called: BOII, BELGAE, PARISII, BRIGANTES, VENETII and AIRENOSI
These four GAUL tribes have been historically in all the places SRY2627 are:

1_THE BOII (with their subclades BOIATES and perhaps BAIOCASSES) have been in Switzerland (after a battle), Sicilia, North Italie, East Europe, Germany and Austria... and more.
2_The BELGAE in BELGIUM, ENGLAND and IRELAND ("FIR BOLG" according to the book of the conquests)
3_The PARISII in FRANCE (in paris region) and ENGLAND (neighbour of the Brigantes)
4_The VENETII in NORTH WALES, SOUTH BRITTANY and perhaps NORTH ITALY (VENETI)
5_THE BRIGANTES in IRELAND and NORTH ENGLAND/SCOTLAND (PARISII's neighbors) and ALPS (BRIGANTII)
6_AIRENOSI (whose origin is not confirmed to have been Aquitanian or Iberian) in the VAL d'ARAN"



I wouldn't get too wrapped around the place-name etymology of words as it relates to identifying tribes. Keep in mind many of these people were named by the Greeks and Romans which often was a very distorted picture. The Pictones in Pictavia en Gallia could easily be confused with the Picts in Northern Scotland. Just as the Greek explorers confused the Silures with the Iberians because of the way the looked. I have a tendency to go that route thinking "Aha! This is a connection!" but reality checks hit me hard and back to square zero and nothing has been accomplished.

Arch

Yes, it is quite a humbling feeling to think you've had an "AHA!" moment and then it falls flat on its face.  

I've been reading with interest about the Aquitaine region of France. As you're well aware the area is just as thick with SRY2627 as parts of Northern Spain. Reaching the 10-15% frequency level in the western most Atlantic facing areas. Then of course you have Val D'aran with its whopping 48%. I think the percentage in Catalonia is a bit exaggerated.. Probably more in line with Bearn, Northern Aragon etc.. I'm seeing a clear distinction with the Aquitani people.. Really I'm not sure how the Iberian label ever came about... Well, I am.. lol of course I'm looking at this with the data we have today and I'm not trying piecing it together with scant amounts of evidence.

Seems to me that the likely explanation for SRY2627 appearing in Spain (Mostly Northern Spain) is that it is Aquitani and Gaulish spill over during and before the reign of the Roman empire. A great example being the Berones tribe which settled La Rioja (15%) in the 4th century bc. Now I'm not saying all of SRY2627 should be given the aquitanti label, but I certainly think it fits for the dispersal of the sub clade in the regions I'm mentioning.

I've also placed push pins in an unlabeled map of France, using the French SRY2627 I've been able to find. A clear preference for the provinces of Poitou and Saintonge is revealed.. Which further strengthens the bond to the Aquitani in my opinion. Seems SRY2627 is like a coin with an Aquitani element that spread more to the south and a Celtic element which spread more to the north. The trend of SRY2627 clustering closely continues on up into Brittany. Though not in the area traditionally held by the Bretons. That area is awash with L21.

Of course I'm not claiming any origins here. I'm just presenting what I believe is the best ethnic description for our sub clade, which covers not only the southern component but also the northern one.  
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 08:02:51 AM by samIsaack » Logged

Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Stephen Parrish
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« Reply #571 on: August 16, 2013, 08:59:05 AM »

It certainly is nice to see some Catalan SRY2627 peeps in YSearch. Anybody reach out to them and have them join the SRY2627 project? Edit: Never mind I just noticed them already in. Stephen is on top of things! Has Antoni Homs been contacted?

Arch

Arch -

I do not know whether he has been contacted.

Speaking of SRY2627+'s appearance in Catalonia, please note CTS4299+'s presence there in the SRY2627+ project's section A20 on the project's Y-STR page.

Stephen
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Y-DNA: R-SRY2627+ (terminal SNP: R-CTS4299+)
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« Reply #572 on: August 16, 2013, 07:24:43 PM »

@Arch

Thanks Sam well said  Saintonge stock here!!!
I was only talking about my specific SRY2627 line :-)

I do like your ideas though!

Well, you mentioned ancestral connections to the Brythonic word for 'merchant.' I'm just adding some insight as Belerion as a part of ancient Dumnonia was renowned for merchants trading in tin and the story originates out of the Marseilles - a port of call very contemporaneous with Empuries or the 'Emporion' in Catalonia. Which also ties in to the port where the tin was arriving to the Loire R. near Nantes which has long been an important one between Britain, Ireland and land of various Celts such as the Pictones - therefore your 'Western Preference' of SRY2627 in France.

Arch

Thanks, Arch. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I just wanted to clear up any confusion I might have caused by the way I phrased "Our SRY2627 line".

Here's an excerpt from an email sent to me by my Breton "cousin"..

"I was looking at the map of the SRY2627 again and there is something that geographically links all of them . The places we found us represent the places these 6 CELTIC Tribes called: BOII, BELGAE, PARISII, BRIGANTES, VENETII and AIRENOSI
These four GAUL tribes have been historically in all the places SRY2627 are:

1_THE BOII (with their subclades BOIATES and perhaps BAIOCASSES) have been in Switzerland (after a battle), Sicilia, North Italie, East Europe, Germany and Austria... and more.
2_The BELGAE in BELGIUM, ENGLAND and IRELAND ("FIR BOLG" according to the book of the conquests)
3_The PARISII in FRANCE (in paris region) and ENGLAND (neighbour of the Brigantes)
4_The VENETII in NORTH WALES, SOUTH BRITTANY and perhaps NORTH ITALY (VENETI)
5_THE BRIGANTES in IRELAND and NORTH ENGLAND/SCOTLAND (PARISII's neighbors) and ALPS (BRIGANTII)
6_AIRENOSI (whose origin is not confirmed to have been Aquitanian or Iberian) in the VAL d'ARAN"



I wouldn't get too wrapped around the place-name etymology of words as it relates to identifying tribes. Keep in mind many of these people were named by the Greeks and Romans which often was a very distorted picture. The Pictones in Pictavia en Gallia could easily be confused with the Picts in Northern Scotland. Just as the Greek explorers confused the Silures with the Iberians because of the way the looked. I have a tendency to go that route thinking "Aha! This is a connection!" but reality checks hit me hard and back to square zero and nothing has been accomplished.

Arch

Yes, it is quite a humbling feeling to think you've had an "AHA!" moment and then it falls flat on its face.  

I've been reading with interest about the Aquitaine region of France. As you're well aware the area is just as thick with SRY2627 as parts of Northern Spain. Reaching the 10-15% frequency level in the western most Atlantic facing areas. Then of course you have Val D'aran with its whopping 48%. I think the percentage in Catalonia is a bit exaggerated.. Probably more in line with Bearn, Northern Aragon etc.. I'm seeing a clear distinction with the Aquitani people.. Really I'm not sure how the Iberian label ever came about... Well, I am.. lol of course I'm looking at this with the data we have today and I'm not trying piecing it together with scant amounts of evidence.

Seems to me that the likely explanation for SRY2627 appearing in Spain (Mostly Northern Spain) is that it is Aquitani and Gaulish spill over during and before the reign of the Roman empire. A great example being the Berones tribe which settled La Rioja (15%) in the 4th century bc. Now I'm not saying all of SRY2627 should be given the aquitanti label, but I certainly think it fits for the dispersal of the sub clade in the regions I'm mentioning.

I've also placed push pins in an unlabeled map of France, using the French SRY2627 I've been able to find. A clear preference for the provinces of Poitou and Saintonge is revealed.. Which further strengthens the bond to the Aquitani in my opinion. Seems SRY2627 is like a coin with an Aquitani element that spread more to the south and a Celtic element which spread more to the north. The trend of SRY2627 clustering closely continues on up into Brittany. Though not in the area traditionally held by the Bretons. That area is awash with L21.

Of course I'm not claiming any origins here. I'm just presenting what I believe is the best ethnic description for our sub clade, which covers not only the southern component but also the northern one.  
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
Jason Bourgeois
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« Reply #573 on: August 16, 2013, 08:55:26 PM »


Yes, it is quite a humbling feeling to think you've had an "AHA!" moment and then it falls flat on its face.  

I've been reading with interest about the Aquitaine region of France. As you're well aware the area is just as thick with SRY2627 as parts of Northern Spain. Reaching the 10-15% frequency level in the western most Atlantic facing areas. Then of course you have Val D'aran with its whopping 48%. I think the percentage in Catalonia is a bit exaggerated.. Probably more in line with Bearn, Northern Aragon etc.. I'm seeing a clear distinction with the Aquitani people.. Really I'm not sure how the Iberian label ever came about... Well, I am.. lol of course I'm looking at this with the data we have today and I'm not trying piecing it together with scant amounts of evidence.

Seems to me that the likely explanation for SRY2627 appearing in Spain (Mostly Northern Spain) is that it is Aquitani and Gaulish spill over during and before the reign of the Roman empire. A great example being the Berones tribe which settled La Rioja (15%) in the 4th century bc. Now I'm not saying all of SRY2627 should be given the aquitanti label, but I certainly think it fits for the dispersal of the sub clade in the regions I'm mentioning.

I've also placed push pins in an unlabeled map of France, using the French SRY2627 I've been able to find. A clear preference for the provinces of Poitou and Saintonge is revealed.. Which further strengthens the bond to the Aquitani in my opinion. Seems SRY2627 is like a coin with an Aquitani element that spread more to the south and a Celtic element which spread more to the north. The trend of SRY2627 clustering closely continues on up into Brittany. Though not in the area traditionally held by the Bretons. That area is awash with L21.

Of course I'm not claiming any origins here. I'm just presenting what I believe is the best ethnic description for our sub clade, which covers not only the southern component but also the northern one.  

The 2012 article by Martinez-Cruz, et al., which examined the Y-DNA of many Pyrenees regions, associates SRY2627 with the Aquitani tribes.
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« Reply #574 on: August 17, 2013, 01:19:29 AM »

I have to agree with you there is a strong presence of SRY2627 in southern France, but we also have to keep in mind with the academic studies that pulled in several donors going on over 10 years it seems. The academic data is good in terms of finding the 'hot spots' of SRY2627; the only thing they lack is more STRs which back then was not seen as much of a necessity in identifying where the subclade tends to cluster. In my eyes, Val d'Aran is more a part of Occitania than it is Catalonia, albeit quite closely related. I don't think the 48% is that exaggerated given where the donor samples were taken from - the older villages which are usually off-the-beaten path on a steep hillside. You just know the ancestry runs deep there. The only place I would say it would not run deep in general is in Baquiera which caters to tourism and skiers. When places like Vilamos, Arres de Sus, and Bausen are tested, you just know it's most likely not going to be recent arrivals - these families are well-rooted and established. So the number of donors may not seem relevant but keep in mind the amount of males in Val d'Aran around the time of testing was around 5,000 at best and out of that 5,000 some 1,500 were from places like Portugal, Galicia, and Andalusia and most of those males migrated with the boom in tourism over the last 20 years. Mining also lured in a few from other far-flung places, but like all mining camps, Val d'Aran had its fair share of Ghost Towns and some are still there today. But what remainder of emigrant males with descended families remain from that era is probably remote. What I do know and see is the steep population increases and drops which is indicative of a mining boom and bust period, but I would not be too surprised if lumbering activity as well other events played a role as well. Val d'Aran and its immediate surrounding valleys seems to be a good pivot point between the Amorican and Iberian SRY2627. Like I was telling somebody the other day, even the geographical positioning of Val d'Aran places it technically in Aquitani lands and not really on the Iberian Peninsula -- it's just really close to it. Politically and culturally, there's been a much stronger connection between the two 'zones' since the Middle Ages. But prior to the Frankish conquest of Visigothic lands things get a bit tougher to decipher as the region was vaguely under Pompey's Lugdunum Convenaii. Even more vague are the Aeronosii which would not be unusual from Val d'Aran and even in Andorra to the east as you can find similar placenames like Arans, etc.

Iberians were not necessarily 'locked' into Iberia proper. They can be found along the Mediterranean coastline at least as far as Narbonne and perhaps Marseilles; I would not be surprised one bit if they were far west as Bordeaux. I believe Pompey also had a contingent of Celtiberian allied soldiers near Convenae Lugdunum at Calahorra, very interesting placenames found south of the Pyrenees near Zaragossa and near Toulouse north of the Pyrenees. Just like the passes to the east that are a bit easier to navigate through, Val d'Aran was a crossroads of all sorts of people and cultures once it was discovered how to access it without too much effort and the crossover to each side. I find it remarkable that without the Vielha Tunnel the place is quite difficult to access - one access point to the south (Col de Bonaigua), one to the west (Luchon), both Bonaigua and Col de Porthilon is stretching it when I say ease of access, and one to the north along the Garonne (Pont de Rey). All other access points on foot, beast, or vehicle take a bit of effort. Val d'Aran would be a good study model for how geophysical barriers can impact diversity within a clade.

Arch
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