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Brousse
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« Reply #475 on: April 27, 2013, 10:15:16 PM »

Ships records said the huguenots were mistreated by the crew. When they got to VA the land reserved for them on the James River had already been taken so they marched them to a abandoned  Manikin Indian village in the woods. My 8th Great Grandfather Jacques Brousse was elected vestryman and was delagated to go to seek more supplies from a near by town for the winter The King sent agents to check on the settlement from time to time records are online
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
Arch Y.
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« Reply #476 on: April 28, 2013, 02:13:04 AM »

Ships records said the huguenots were mistreated by the crew. When they got to VA the land reserved for them on the James River had already been taken so they marched them to a abandoned  Manikin Indian village in the woods. My 8th Great Grandfather Jacques Brousse was elected vestryman and was delagated to go to seek more supplies from a near by town for the winter The King sent agents to check on the settlement from time to time records are online

Also, what I have noticed is that Durrett in our SRY2627 group is a Huguenot. I thought that was interesting as this new SRY2627 is my closest GD at 15 with 67 markers. First, it was Juillet and the Alberti, but this one is pushing me closer to Virginia as a starting point. I don't know of any Huguenot ancestry in my family. Records of Yeomans and Yeoman in Virginia prior to 1700 is spotty at best. The brickwall may be broken through with a possible connection with James Tune as James Yeoman(s) is mentioned. I do remember my uncle stating at times about Yeomans would often be spelled without the letter s. I can't confirm this as being accurate. Tune is at GD of 22 with 76 markers tested. Hopefully, I can get some breakthrough that will confirm 100% my connection with Simon Yeomans or the earlier Yeomans line found in Virginia and possibly the Yeamans line further to Barbados and South Carolina. Short of going on Facebook and looking for any Yeomans to test, I'm getting restless and want answers.

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Brousse
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« Reply #477 on: April 28, 2013, 05:39:23 AM »

I will try and find the manikin town rosters later maybe your kin will be there? Johnny Depp's Family was at Manikin town as well
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #478 on: April 28, 2013, 08:19:50 AM »

Va is were my family entered the US in 1700 but at Manikin Town Huguenot settelment. Glad to see your making some head way Arch!!!!

My 7th great-grandfather, Dr. Paul Micou, was one of the Manakin Town settlers. A couple of years ago I was able to find and photograph his grave over in Essex County, Virginia, not far from where I live.

He is not one of my y-dna ancestors but was the ancestor of one of my 3rd great-grandmothers on my father's side.

The photos aren't the greatest. I plan to go back this summer and get some better ones.




« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 08:26:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

Brousse
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« Reply #479 on: April 28, 2013, 08:30:49 AM »

That is cool all I have is a copy of a marriage certificate from the Huguenot church of London dated 1690 showing they were Leather Merchants from the town of Cognac. And the Manikin Town Records
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #480 on: April 28, 2013, 02:52:26 PM »

I think what we really need besides aDNA, is the discovery of more subclades downstream, so that we can start to look for possible regional groupings.  I think that would start to unravel possible migration routes.  I went through all the surnames of possible and confirmed British origin in the Z220 group in the 1881 British census name profiler and Devon seems to be the hub for Z220.  But next to Devon the entire marches regions of Britain, that western part of England that borders Wales, seems to be a second hub.  In other words, higher in Devon and decreasing out gradually in a north eastern spread.

If there are any subclades downstream of SRY2627 besides the private SNPs. I think it's possible but so far very little has come forth. There was one lingering around for a while but I have no idea where it went to or if it was decided to be a private SNP. If we look at the diversity aspect of SRY2627, for the most part it seems to be a bit higher in Britain than in France. Lots of jumps from one region to another which I'm thinking is due to maritime travel to include upstream on such rivers as the Rhine. I don't think it's that hard to get maritime people inland and a good example how we can find maritime bell beakers in Val d'Aran high up the Garonne/Garona. If anything the major watercourses inland helped to drive the coastal people inland more than the other way around. In terms of mountain life being better or used for a refuge I think it fluctuates depending on the circumstances. I looked at the population histograms of Val d'Aran and was amazed to see in certain periods there was obvious abandonment and then re-population in certain villages--in fact the re-populate villages today do not have the numbers they once had in the 1600s. In fact, Val d'Aran had more people at certain points than it does now (amazing stuff when you really dig into a history and sociology of a region). I like starting from here as obvious, mostly because of the frequency distribution in the Central Pyrenees. I have considered what could cause the extremely low diversity and that perhaps Val d'Aran was the last major clustering of a good portion of SRY2627. The variance being lower in France makes sense from the point that Val d'Aran is really a French facing region. What befuddles me is the higher diversity in Iberia than Germany and Britain (elsewhere it's pretty much a moot point, except to say they are lower than Iberia, Germany, Britain and France).

So that is one reason why I look at SRY2627's variance as an indicator that it was moving around the waterways and coastal ways of Europe. Not that hard to do and that makes it difficult. I think Z262 is what we really need to get a grasp on before we can make any definitive conclusions where SRY2627 originates and of course any downstream SNPs to find the terminal point so to speak. I would say this subclade moved around with great rapidity during the Late Bronze age and that is why we pretty much see it all over Europe. Only in recent history did it cluster and that is the evidence we have today with the academic studies and current corporate genomic data showing a great deal of SRY2627 in Iberia and southerly regions. I find it weird that a subclade that has predominately southern European affinities in studies does not have such with some genomic testing companies. If I am SRY2627+ I would be expecting to see a higher percentage of southern European in my ancestral painting offered by 23andMe and I'm not seeing it--which is really weird but I do see a small percentage of it. Meaning if there's a small percentage than it must mean that my ancestry lies within a zone near the Pyrenees or the Alps. Hopefully we can find a downstream SNP to compare against once we know the distribution of it. But for now we really need to get a grasp on Z262.

Arch



Arch -

Geno 2.0 has revealed several SNPs downstream from SRY2627+: Z207+ and CTS4299+ are two of them.

Stephen
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« Reply #481 on: April 28, 2013, 04:45:28 PM »

I think what we really need besides aDNA, is the discovery of more subclades downstream, so that we can start to look for possible regional groupings.  I think that would start to unravel possible migration routes.  I went through all the surnames of possible and confirmed British origin in the Z220 group in the 1881 British census name profiler and Devon seems to be the hub for Z220.  But next to Devon the entire marches regions of Britain, that western part of England that borders Wales, seems to be a second hub.  In other words, higher in Devon and decreasing out gradually in a north eastern spread.


If there are any subclades downstream of SRY2627 besides the private SNPs. I think it's possible but so far very little has come forth. There was one lingering around for a while but I have no idea where it went to or if it was decided to be a private SNP. If we look at the diversity aspect of SRY2627, for the most part it seems to be a bit higher in Britain than in France. Lots of jumps from one region to another which I'm thinking is due to maritime travel to include upstream on such rivers as the Rhine. I don't think it's that hard to get maritime people inland and a good example how we can find maritime bell beakers in Val d'Aran high up the Garonne/Garona. If anything the major watercourses inland helped to drive the coastal people inland more than the other way around. In terms of mountain life being better or used for a refuge I think it fluctuates depending on the circumstances. I looked at the population histograms of Val d'Aran and was amazed to see in certain periods there was obvious abandonment and then re-population in certain villages--in fact the re-populate villages today do not have the numbers they once had in the 1600s. In fact, Val d'Aran had more people at certain points than it does now (amazing stuff when you really dig into a history and sociology of a region). I like starting from here as obvious, mostly because of the frequency distribution in the Central Pyrenees. I have considered what could cause the extremely low diversity and that perhaps Val d'Aran was the last major clustering of a good portion of SRY2627. The variance being lower in France makes sense from the point that Val d'Aran is really a French facing region. What befuddles me is the higher diversity in Iberia than Germany and Britain (elsewhere it's pretty much a moot point, except to say they are lower than Iberia, Germany, Britain and France).

So that is one reason why I look at SRY2627's variance as an indicator that it was moving around the waterways and coastal ways of Europe. Not that hard to do and that makes it difficult. I think Z262 is what we really need to get a grasp on before we can make any definitive conclusions where SRY2627 originates and of course any downstream SNPs to find the terminal point so to speak. I would say this subclade moved around with great rapidity during the Late Bronze age and that is why we pretty much see it all over Europe. Only in recent history did it cluster and that is the evidence we have today with the academic studies and current corporate genomic data showing a great deal of SRY2627 in Iberia and southerly regions. I find it weird that a subclade that has predominately southern European affinities in studies does not have such with some genomic testing companies. If I am SRY2627+ I would be expecting to see a higher percentage of southern European in my ancestral painting offered by 23andMe and I'm not seeing it--which is really weird but I do see a small percentage of it. Meaning if there's a small percentage than it must mean that my ancestry lies within a zone near the Pyrenees or the Alps. Hopefully we can find a downstream SNP to compare against once we know the distribution of it. But for now we really need to get a grasp on Z262.

Arch



Arch -

Geno 2.0 has revealed several SNPs downstream from SRY2627+: Z207+ and CTS4299+ are two of them.

Stephen

Where are they mostly found?
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thetick
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« Reply #482 on: May 03, 2013, 10:41:55 PM »

Geno 2.0 has revealed several SNPs downstream from SRY2627+: Z207+ and CTS4299+ are two of them.

See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?816-R1b-DF27-Phylogeny-(SNP-based-family-tree)&highlight=sry2627 for the rest of the known SNPs.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #483 on: May 10, 2013, 11:05:15 AM »

I'm still thinking the Urnfields are the reason for the subclades predominance in modern-day Iberia. The similarities to the distribution and pooling points are uncanny. Am I saying SRY2627 is most associated with the Urnfield People? Not all of it. But a portion or rather the bulk of it probably is.

Given the age of our subclade and my lack of keeping track of and differentiating between BP and BC, lol, I'd say our mutation occured somewhere in Alpine Europe and the bulk of it kept going south with the Urnfield culture. While smaller outliers moved into other areas and became associated with the Atlantic Bronze movements up and down the coast of France and Britain as well as into the east and the north. I'd say alot of us with British ancestry probably never made it as far south as Iberia. Likely we spread up to Britain via the major rivers in France as has been suggested by Arch, Razyn, Webb.. Well, pretty much all of us in the Z196 boat!

This of course means that I believe that DF27 likely expanded in many different ways and times, as opposed to a simple linear path straight to Iberia and then later regurgitations mostly in the form of Z196. I think the core of it may have been somewhere in Central/Alpine Europe with its P312 brothers, U152 and L21 or Pre-L21. The first and oldest form moved into Iberia, mind you I believe this is DF27*, and spread with the maritime beakers. The other branch that would eventually mutate into the Z196 family stayed in Alpine Europe during this time and didn't really make any waves, at least not yet. I'm guessing it hadn't found a major cultural group to cling to and expand with yet. At least not one that had the vast spread and accessability such as the mid to later bronze age cultures. Seems maritime travel didn't really come into its own until around this time. Amazing how this didn't really happen until our little Z196 group came about. This makes me think that there are loads and loads of undiscovered groups/mutations that simply didn't make it. Numerous smaller groups of the Pre Z196 branch that did expand died off for any number of reasons and we simply don't have evidence or rather we haven't discovered evidence of their existence.. at least not yet anyways.


« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 11:08:02 AM by samIsaack » Logged

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« Reply #484 on: May 10, 2013, 03:26:30 PM »

This of course means that I believe that DF27 likely expanded in many different ways and times, as opposed to a simple linear path straight to Iberia and then later regurgitations mostly in the form of Z196.

I think if you look at Mikewww's descendancy chart for the big three, you will see that U152 and DF27 have a large spread right off the bat, meaning to me, that multiple snps broke off from DF27 and went in a number of different directions, compared to L21, which is very linear, one snp after another, with very little parrellels.
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« Reply #485 on: May 11, 2013, 02:07:58 AM »

I'm still thinking the Urnfields are the reason for the subclades predominance in modern-day Iberia. The similarities to the distribution and pooling points are uncanny. Am I saying SRY2627 is most associated with the Urnfield People? Not all of it. But a portion or rather the bulk of it probably is.

Given the age of our subclade and my lack of keeping track of and differentiating between BP and BC, lol, I'd say our mutation occured somewhere in Alpine Europe and the bulk of it kept going south with the Urnfield culture. While smaller outliers moved into other areas and became associated with the Atlantic Bronze movements up and down the coast of France and Britain as well as into the east and the north. I'd say alot of us with British ancestry probably never made it as far south as Iberia. Likely we spread up to Britain via the major rivers in France as has been suggested by Arch, Razyn, Webb.. Well, pretty much all of us in the Z196 boat!

This of course means that I believe that DF27 likely expanded in many different ways and times, as opposed to a simple linear path straight to Iberia and then later regurgitations mostly in the form of Z196. I think the core of it may have been somewhere in Central/Alpine Europe with its P312 brothers, U152 and L21 or Pre-L21. The first and oldest form moved into Iberia, mind you I believe this is DF27*, and spread with the maritime beakers. The other branch that would eventually mutate into the Z196 family stayed in Alpine Europe during this time and didn't really make any waves, at least not yet. I'm guessing it hadn't found a major cultural group to cling to and expand with yet. At least not one that had the vast spread and accessability such as the mid to later bronze age cultures. Seems maritime travel didn't really come into its own until around this time. Amazing how this didn't really happen until our little Z196 group came about. This makes me think that there are loads and loads of undiscovered groups/mutations that simply didn't make it. Numerous smaller groups of the Pre Z196 branch that did expand died off for any number of reasons and we simply don't have evidence or rather we haven't discovered evidence of their existence.. at least not yet anyways.



Not to throw a fly in the ointment, but I'll do it anyway. I'm thinking most movements of populations move up river from a coastal region rather than from upper rivers and downstream. The reason why I say this is due to the rich nutrient resources of rivers where the sediment has built up substantially towards the mouth. For SRY2627 maybe just maybe its a spread from the lower Rhone and upwards and then over. Also, the same thing was occurring Iberia from the lower Ebro and inwards. Just north of the Pyrenees it would have been the Aude River. I suspect these three rivers are of big significance of pushing our subclade into the interior and over to the Atlantic facing rivers. I'm not sure if I should include the Danube but perhaps this would be the main conduit through Central Europe (just not the only one). Most importantly, we must not ever overlook the possibility of a Mediterranean expansion which I believe is more plausible than the inward expansion up the Danube River for our group. The Rhone, Aude, and Ebro all flow out to the Mediterranean Sea and have originate at the crest where the rivers on the opposite side all flow to the Atlantic (Rhone/Rhine) being the exception to the North Sea. However, many feeder rivers to the Atlantic crest up near the Rhone River such as the Cher and Loire Rivers. I suspect the Rhone and Aude are the biggest conduits for our subclade. This goes without saying that it's quite possible there are Danube feeder rivers that reach the crest of rivers that reach the North Sea (Such as where the Danube rises nearest the Rhine), or even the Baltic Sea is one of the contributors to our expansion (but I think this is less likely, but not improbable). So in a nutshell, I pretty much covered all of Europe (less the Arctic region). But for the most part the Aude/Rhone/Ebro River basins seem central to our expansion. I am not however against a Mediterranean Sea to Atlantic Ocean and coastal expansion as this too is quite plausible. Perhaps looking at an Ibero to Amorica coastal expansion and inland from those points and inwards for some into Britain/Ireland. I think I have covered it all. LOL.

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« Reply #486 on: May 11, 2013, 02:11:31 AM »

I should clarify. Initial expansion begin from coastal regions, final expansions move over the crest and then downstream until a major body of water is encountered (this again renews the expansion, quite rapidly I must say). Lands divide though they are bridged, Seas Connect because they are crossed by faster moving ships than people or horses in heavily forested terrain.

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« Reply #487 on: May 11, 2013, 05:58:25 AM »

Hi all, this post is not directly relevant to DNA, but it might be interesting for some of you to know that I completed a trip to France earlier this month, including visits to the cities of La Rochelle, Bordeaux, Lourdes, and Toulouse (right in the stronghold of SRY2627 territory).  I will be happy to share details and/or pictures with those interested.
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Brousse
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« Reply #488 on: May 11, 2013, 09:48:13 AM »

Do you have any pics of Cognac or Talliebourg? My Brousse line are from Cognac and my Cornu line are from Talliebourg
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 09:50:16 AM by Brousse » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #489 on: May 11, 2013, 01:20:07 PM »

You can open Google Maps; go to Cognac, France; drag the little yellow guy from the legend onto the map; and any place the Google camera truck drove you can drive, turn around 360 degrees, zoom on buildings that interest you, etc.  I just checked, so I know it works in Cognac.  Didn't have time to check Talliebourg.  Yep, it also works in Taillebourg (you do have to spell it right, though).
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 05:45:10 PM by razyn » Logged

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« Reply #490 on: May 11, 2013, 04:26:29 PM »

Do you have any pics of Cognac or Talliebourg? My Brousse line are from Cognac and my Cornu line are from Talliebourg

Sorry I only have pictures of the cities mentioned above!
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Brousse
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« Reply #491 on: May 12, 2013, 06:55:55 AM »

I would like to see an extensive DNA study done on the American Cajuns as many come from SRY2627 areas in France plus many still have a oral history of their family in France. My family's heritage was stripped from us as we lived in English areas and Anglicized our name as well .  Huguenots were not allowed in French colonies 
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #492 on: May 12, 2013, 08:03:30 AM »

I would like to see an extensive DNA study done on the American Cajuns as many come from SRY2627 areas in France plus many still have a oral history of their family in France. My family's heritage was stripped from us as we lived in English areas and Anglicized our name as well .  Huguenots were not allowed in French colonies 

I have compiled an unofficial list of Cajun surnames with public Y-DNA results.  In the list, only two names have SRY2627:  Bourgeois and Daigre.  Many of them are undifferentiated R1b (meaning that they have not tested for specific subclades), but of the ones that do have a subclade, L21 is the most common.
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« Reply #493 on: May 12, 2013, 09:23:00 AM »

Thanks for the Info I had a cousin that went to Cognac last year but did not have any luck finding info on my family. Cognac does have Brousse's there that maybe related. Seems like some of the Catholic cemeteries should have my kin as they would have been Catholic at one time. And Arch I saw a deal on Robin Hood the historic record and they used the old term of Yoemen to discribe a pre Middle class of England this class was able to fight in wars and had land of their own
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #494 on: May 12, 2013, 09:55:27 AM »

Jason how far are we from eachother DNA wise? On the French DNA group I'm in the A0 Family Group my FTDNA is 148371
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #495 on: May 12, 2013, 02:10:19 PM »

Jason how far are we from eachother DNA wise? On the French DNA group I'm in the A0 Family Group my FTDNA is 148371

Dear Brousse,

Using the "expanded" Brousse DNA signature (kit 36452), we are a genetic distance of 18 out of 67 markers.  This works out to be approximately 1320 years ago (common ancestor c. 693 AD).
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« Reply #496 on: May 12, 2013, 03:19:20 PM »

The Dark Ages You are my 34st cousin twice removed lol
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« Reply #497 on: May 12, 2013, 06:59:40 PM »

This of course means that I believe that DF27 likely expanded in many different ways and times, as opposed to a simple linear path straight to Iberia and then later regurgitations mostly in the form of Z196.
I think if you look at Mikewww's descendancy chart for the big three, you will see that U152 and DF27 have a large spread right off the bat, meaning to me, that multiple snps broke off from DF27 and went in a number of different directions, compared to L21, which is very linear, one snp after another, with very little parrellels.
Sorry to be a bit off-topic but just want comment on L21's subclades. I don't think they are long and narrow early. In one sense DF13 is as it seems to have occurred quickly after L21 and has the same modal as L21.

However, DF13, shows a very broad family of early branching subclades from DF49, L513, L1335, DF21, DF41, Z251, Z253, Z255 and CTS4466. These are all are large and seemed to branch underneath of DF13 very early.  DF13 has many parallel subclades that are old and large. If DF13 was discovered, we may hardly be even talking about L21.
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« Reply #498 on: May 13, 2013, 12:35:03 PM »

I would like to see an extensive DNA study done on the American Cajuns as many come from SRY2627 areas in France plus many still have a oral history of their family in France. My family's heritage was stripped from us as we lived in English areas and Anglicized our name as well .  Huguenots were not allowed in French colonies 

I do notice a remarkable high frequency of French ancestry SRY2627 as being Huguenots--I am not aware of my family being SRY2627 even though Juillet is the closest GD (near Poitiers). My closest GD is 17 at 67 markers and seems not too distant between a person in southwestern Germany and Northern Italy. The other close GD of 16 at 67 markers has ancestry in the Burgundy area of France.

Arch
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« Reply #499 on: May 14, 2013, 08:34:28 AM »

Arch I think I'm even closer to Juillet I think he is in my family group of A0 Did you see my post about the use of the term Yoeman in the dark ages in England? Pre Middle Class of people able to bare arms and own land maybe this is where your history is?
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